fredmiranda.com
Login

Moderated by: Fred Miranda
  New fredmiranda.com Mobile Site
  New Feature: SMS Notification alert
  New Feature: Buy & Sell Watchlist
  

FM Forums | People Photography | Join Upload & Sell

       2       end
  

Archive 2011 · ART vs PORN. Let's get this over with.

  
 
seanfoulkes
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #1 · ART vs PORN. Let's get this over with.


Grab a drink and get comfortable, this editorial is a bit long but hopefully it is stimulating.

Ok, I've been on FM for only two months or so, I joined after a handful of friends recommended it as the best photography forum on the internet (coupled with the marvelous buy/sell board which I'm still kicking myself for not finding FIVE years ago).

Lately it seems i've noticed a fair amount of controversy over people displaying their "erotic" work. Some of it that I have seen has ranged from tasteful provocative nude images to, let's be honest, straight up porn. There seem to be very polarized opinions on the subject as it relates to FM.com and art photography in general.

Now, being young (24), very liberal, and very self-aware, I consider everything created by humans to fall under the category of "Art." From industrial architecture, to the iconic modern furniture of Herman Miller or Arne Jacobsen, to the latest re-vamped GAP website design, and most certainly pornography. Art, in it's basic description, is the creative output of the mind. Art is what separates hive-minded consciousness and computers from us. The ability to tangibly express our individuality and our Id in forms that others can perceive is the single driving force of the greatness of our species.

That being said, as photographers, a huge controversy for us is the porn industry. It is a visual art form specifically designed to express human sexuality through one of the most unique aspects of humans, which is sexuality as a form of pleasure. Just as a war photojournalist's graphic images aim to excite our emotions, pornography does the exact same thing with our sexuality.

The vast majority of us have seen our fair share of porn, and since our relationships to the pornography we experience are usually very personal (as in private), many of us see an immediate need to separate what intrigues or affects us with pornography with how we let others perceive our relationship with it. I don't email my boss porn links if my sexuality positively responds to it. It isn't a social norm to openly discuss it as it relates to you.

How does pornography fit in and relate to how the community on Fred Miranda perceive it?

In my opinion, pornography is such an extreme emotion-based art medium, that I find less diversity and artistic complexity in the images I see occasionally posted here, or out on the internet as a whole. The majority of us strive to create art that stimulates our brains in multiple ways. The curves of a wedding dress, the texture of a wall, the thought-provoking perspective that gives the viewer a new and unique way to experience a familiar subject. Photography with political and social implications. Journalism that gives the viewer a way to experience world events as if they were there. Photography as an art form is very complex, and pornographic images are all centered around one basic driving force: the viewer's sexual desire.

Now, obviously not all nude images of people are pornography. Every person's brain is wired differently to interpret images. But, if a group of people all look at an image and decide it reminds them of or bears resemblance to other pornography, they are saying that the image does little other than to stimulate a sexual response in the viewer.

I can only speak for myself when I say that I get a bit embarassed, and more than slightly offended when I meet people, tell them i'm a photographer or that I'm finishing up a degree in photography, and they jokingly ask me if I want to take pictures of porn stars. It happens a lot. Maybe it is the younger social circle I am exposed to, but I want to say 50% of reactions I get from disclosing my hobby and career path result in either a joke or an honest question about taking pictures of "hot chicks" or being a pornography photographer. I'd love to get into profession ad/fashion photography,

I'd love to make money at using my creativity to sculpt an emotional response from a target audience through how I choose to portray commercial images, whether it be a swimsuit calendar, perfume ad, or ad for a new car.

Porn, however, is the black sheep. Although it is definitely art, I believe it should be critiqued and reviewed apart from other photography because of its unique cultural impact. And when I come to FM.com to view some of the amazing fashion, family portrait, wedding, modeling, and gorgeous nude art images, I do not want to be tip-toeing my way through porn. At the very least I think FM.com should have a separate erotica forum that distinctly separates pornography from multi-aspect people photography. I get aggravated when people (no finger pointing) post their work in the erotica genre for in-depth critique when the images more than obviously cater almost entirely to the sexual desire of the intended viewer.

That is my opinion, what is yours? Thanks for reading this whole thing. It was long, but I think the subject is pretty complex.



Jul 16, 2011 at 09:17 PM
MrAdventure
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #2 · ART vs PORN. Let's get this over with.


wow...you took the long road buddy. I do hear a few of your points.

My only response as it pertains to FM is that all of the "Porn" i've witnessed since joining absolutely sucks and are little more than snapshots. I'm amazed that the posters of that stuff waste money on pro dslr gear to churn that out when they could essentially do the same with a P&S.

I like naked women..but not the nonsense posted here and it's not what I do professionally or even want in any portfolio of mine.



Jul 16, 2011 at 09:38 PM
konsol
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #3 · ART vs PORN. Let's get this over with.


Convoluted logical fallacies.


Jul 16, 2011 at 09:44 PM
John Power
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #4 · ART vs PORN. Let's get this over with.


This topic has been discussed ad naseum over the years...


Jul 16, 2011 at 09:50 PM
davenfl
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #5 · ART vs PORN. Let's get this over with.


To me the female body is a thing of obvious beauty and properly photographed nude photography can be wonderful to look at. I am talking about high class stuff and I am sure I don't have to explain myself. As to having it posted on FM I have mixed emotions due to the fact that some of what I have seen lately doesn't fit my personal definition of high class artistic work. All that said if it is properly labeled as NSFW everyone has the option of just not looking and bypassing it, no harm no foul. I don't think however that we need titles like "spread shots" passed on this forum, plenty of places for that but in my opinion that's not the direction this forum should be taking. We have a large mixed audience and I feel like we are pushing the envelope negatively.

Dave



Jul 16, 2011 at 09:51 PM
Andre Labonte
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #6 · ART vs PORN. Let's get this over with.


ART vs. PORN. Let's get this over with.

The first half of the title acknowledges that Art and Porn are different. The second half of the title is rather naive as this debate is as old as human civilization. I've said plenty about it in the other posts. Only three things to add:

1) While I have not mentioned religion or a religious motivation for my distinctions between art and porn, because there need not be any such motivation, I am greatly disturbed by the blatantly intolerant attitude many have towards anything of religious origin. Especially since these unprovoked attacks on religion come from the individuals claiming "open mindedness". For all their open mindedness, they sure seem closed minded to me.

2) Choice of subject matter and presentation are as much a part of the art as the technical skills of composition, lighting, etc. So, people should expect comments on the subject matter as much as the technical aspects. Prvocative subject matter will illicit more harsh criticism. Lewd material will likewise do so.

3) Pope John Paul II, while clearly a great theologian, was also an artist and philosopher. He made an interesting comment in one of his lessons discussing this very subject of Art vs. Porn:

"The difference between art and pornography is that pornography does not show enough."

"What?" you say, "How can that be?" It's simple, porn (with or without clothing), reduces the person to a sex object that is admired or desired for their sexual capacity only. In this, there is an implicit lack of respect for the humanity of the individual. Art attempts to capture more of the essence and beauty of the person, the human body, nature, etc. (the "more" that JP2 speaks of) and does so with due respect.

In all my posts, I have basically stated, reiterated and defended this basic philosophical idea. One that if we all lived by would lead to a world with less conflict, controversy and abuse.




Jul 16, 2011 at 09:54 PM
seanfoulkes
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #7 · ART vs PORN. Let's get this over with.


Andre Labonte wrote:
"The difference between art and pornography is that pornography does not show enough."



That's a good way to paraphrase it. I like that quote.



Jul 16, 2011 at 10:13 PM
wickerprints
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #8 · ART vs PORN. Let's get this over with.


The one question I have is, why aren't there more pictures of HAWT NEKKID GUYS?!


Jul 16, 2011 at 10:15 PM
tonyfield
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #9 · ART vs PORN. Let's get this over with.


The real problem is to define "pornography" in the context of photography. This is a very difficult thing to do since it is fully dependent upon the cultural values of the individual. It varies over time as the local culture changes and is thus a moving target. It also has smeared values - some people "define" erotica as the display of sexuality with high-art intent whereas pornography is the display of sexuality without the art and only the desire to create intense mental reaction.

Look at Edward Weston's "Nude, New Mexico, 1937". To some people this is pornography, to others it is pure art, and to others it is erotica. Is Peter Gowland's work from the 1950's pornography, is Betty Paige a porn model, is the work of Helmut Newton pornography or erotica, etc. I know people who put all of these images into the porn category - and others who say that they are art bordering onto the erotica side.

I think the definition of "porn" is extremely vague. I personally have never seen any images on FM that I consider to be pornography. The worst of them are simply poor attempts to display erotica but don't measure up on the artistic side. These I classify as mundane photography by a photographer who is "trying hard to do a good job" with their lighting and location. I have only seen a few images that I consider to be proper erotic art. I have also seen a number of images that I really like that I consider "art with nudity".

I always find it amusing when some people respond negatively upon images that I consider to be very good indeed. IMHO, these people are "blind" and "only I have the true vision for what is good"

The other thing I have noted is that FM types seem to equate "art" with the beauty of the lady - a beautiful girl naked is more "artistic" than a not so pretty girl. A girl that smiles is beautiful, a girl that does not smile is the opposite. I suspect that a photographer could take a beauty and a less than pretty girl, do the identical lighting, hair, and makeup and the porn police would call one image "porn" or "an objectification of women" and the other would be "beautifully done art".

I suspect that you will not get a consensus about the nature of art, erotica, and pornography. There are too many people with varied values. And, for some reason, FM seems to have a large number of very conservative people who are out of touch with what is happening today.

IN addition, too many folk expound their bias and seldom properly address the issue of the photography. This tends to be done by those that seem to have a strong American style religious bent.



Jul 16, 2011 at 10:35 PM
KABeach
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #10 · ART vs PORN. Let's get this over with.


Over the many years I've been here, this subject has come and gone many times. In fact, the current "controversy" is very mild compared to the past where groups have broken off and started new website forums in order to pursue their ideas about what is and is not acceptable in an online photography forum.

Within the Art world, the question has been asked over and over again for a very long time - In fact, entire "schools" of Art were created in order to explore the very concept of "What Is Art" (Look up Dadaism).

In the end, it always seems to come down to what US Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart said in 1964 regarding pornography:

I know it when I see it

What is and is not an exceptionable form of Art/Erotica/Pornography is left to the individual.



Jul 16, 2011 at 10:41 PM
tonyfield
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #11 · ART vs PORN. Let's get this over with.


Andre Labonte wrote:
In all my posts, I have basically stated, reiterated and defended this basic philosophical idea. One that if we all lived by would lead to a world with less conflict, controversy and abuse.


Yes, if we all agreed with you, the conflict level would dramatically be reduced.



Jul 16, 2011 at 10:43 PM
tonyfield
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #12 · ART vs PORN. Let's get this over with.


wickerprints wrote:
The one question I have is, why aren't there more pictures of HAWT NEKKID GUYS?!


That would be PORNOGRAPHY of course...

Interesting, I know a number of female photographers who shoot a lot of naked ladies and virtually never shoot men. The woman seems to have a different perception than what we men-folk suspect. I have often wondered why....



Jul 16, 2011 at 11:02 PM
runamuck
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #13 · ART vs PORN. Let's get this over with.


wickerprints wrote:
The one question I have is, why aren't there more pictures of HAWT NEKKID GUYS?!

Haven't you heard? All American men need to be dressed in baggy clothes, preferably burqas. Watch a basketball clip from the 70's, and you realize that today they are actually wearing long skirts. The women basketball players are just trying to emulate the men, and don't really count.

I would almost bet that part of the new NFL contract will be a requirement for really really baggy pants until someone loses a ball in the folds.

The only time you see a Speedo is on the swimming team, and never on the beach. That's only because it's almost impossible to swim with 12 yards of cloth billowing out in the water, acting like a sea anchor.

Of course, women are a different matter. Watch a volleyball match. Or, try a gymnastics meet. Watch a softball game sometime--a good fart would split their pants down every seam.

Let's face it. Showing a man nekkid, or even in revealing clothes is homo-erotic and totally frowned upon.

Disclaimer:
Elements of parody, comedy and sarcasm were used in the above post. All, part, or none of the above post is to be taken seriously.

No sarcazzies were harmed in the writing of this post. Squeezed almost dry, but a little dryness never hurt humor. Watch BBC occasionally.



Jul 16, 2011 at 11:15 PM
StarNut
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #14 · ART vs PORN. Let's get this over with.


This "debate" isn't really about porn; it's about some people arrogating to themselves the power to label something that they don't like as "porn," and to try to censor it.

There are images posted here frequently to gushing praise, that I find, at best, uninteresting from any sort of artistic viewpoint. But it turns out that my computer, amazingly enough, gives me the ability, when there's something on my screen I don't want to be there, to change it. Quickly. And it's a pretty normal, simple computer; a cheapie from Dell through Costco.

I wonder what's wrong with the computers of the people who are complaining, that they are being forced to look at things they don't want to look at.

I suspect, of course, that they have the ability to "change the channel." They just prefer to show how high-minded and moral they are, by whining.

If you don't like it, don't look at it. If you insist on looking at it (you've already clicked through the NUDE barrier, so you know that you're probably about to see, well, nudity), don't blame someone else.

Edited on Jul 16, 2011 at 11:18 PM · View previous versions



Jul 16, 2011 at 11:16 PM
corndog
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #15 · ART vs PORN. Let's get this over with.


Porn is a word made up by people who think their own standard is the world's standard. Without 'porn', the curve would change, and your slightly sexual shots would be the new 'porn'. Like it or not, it's required for the majority to operate 'safely' in the middle. This is why I like FB's images, some of them are like a naked 'fuck you' to the hypersensitive.


Jul 16, 2011 at 11:17 PM
abam
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #16 · ART vs PORN. Let's get this over with.


it's healthy to have sexual desires. if someone wants to attempt to cater to them, i can decide for myself if i want to partake of that product or not.

i.e., to each his own.



Jul 16, 2011 at 11:32 PM
charlesk
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #17 · ART vs PORN. Let's get this over with.



The first half of the title acknowledges that Art and Porn are different.

I find it hilarious that you incessantly complain about people "not fully quoting you" when you not only have done this yourself, but you are deliberately misrepresenting a main viewpoint of the author. The title may mention art and porn as if they were distinct, but the author also said "I consider everything created by humans to fall under the category of "Art", whereas you are one of the most predictable subjective moralizers on the board. So pointing out that discrepancy between his opinion and yours would seem to be rather important.

While I have not mentioned religion or a religious motivation for my distinctions between art and porn, because there need not be any such motivation, I am greatly disturbed by the blatantly intolerant attitude many have towards anything of religious origin.

I'm not intolerant of religion. I'm intolerant of intolerant religious behavior. While religion "need not" be the motivation, it's funny how the correlation between religion and this sort of "porn moralizing" tends to be very high. That's not a coincidence: most religions are highly sexually repressive.

Again, I don't care what your religion is. I *do* care when people try to impose their religious beliefs on others. Just today I saw someone not just say they didn't like a nude image, but start trying to quote forum rules to imply that the person who posted it should be censored. I have a very big problem with that.


It's simple, porn (with or without clothing), reduces the person to a sex object that is admired or desired for their sexual capacity only.

You repeat this constantly, as if it were a fact. It isn't. It's just your opinion.

This is what you don't seem to get. Nobody has a problem with people like you saying "I think this is porn" or "I don't like this". They take issue with your blanket declarations that your subjective viewpoints -- yes, influenced by your religion -- are objective fact.

You don't get to decide what is or is not porn, except for yourself. You don't get to decide what the motivations or intentions are of an image taken by a stranger of a stranger. You don't even get to decide whether or not the intention or goal of an image determines how it should be categorized... again.. except for yourself.

In this, there is an implicit lack of respect for the humanity of the individual.

Again -- you are attempting to impose your religion-based moralizing on others as if it were a universal truth. It is not. There is no "lack of respect for the humanity of the individual" in an image simply because you don't think it's sufficiently artistic to fall on the "good" side of your entirely arbitrary line dividing "art" and "porn".

Your attempts to read minds and decide which photographers are "artists" and which are showing "disrespect for humanity" are FAR more offensive to me than any nude photograph ever taken.

In all my posts, I have basically stated, reiterated and defended this basic philosophical idea. One that if we all lived by would lead to a world with less conflict, controversy and abuse.

tonyfield covered this very appropriately and amusingly. I would add that the same would be true if people like yourself who know they aren't going to like a "porn" image would stop opening them and then complaining about them. But I guess that would just be too simple. I guess for some, proselytizing is a hard habit to break.

Porn is a word made up by people who think their own standard is the world's standard.

Exactly. And exactly the problem.



Jul 16, 2011 at 11:35 PM
fhoyng
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #18 · ART vs PORN. Let's get this over with.


The first half of the title acknowledges that Art and Porn are different.

I find it hilarious that you incessantly complain about people "not fully quoting you" when you not only have done this yourself, but you are deliberately misrepresenting a main viewpoint of the author. The title may mention art and porn as if they were distinct, but the author also said "I consider everything created by humans to fall under the category of "Art", whereas you are one of the most predictable subjective moralizers on the board. So pointing out that discrepancy between his opinion and yours would seem to be rather important.

While I have not mentioned religion or a religious motivation for my distinctions between art and porn, because there need not be any such motivation, I am greatly disturbed by the blatantly intolerant attitude many have towards anything of religious origin.

I'm not intolerant of religion. I'm intolerant of intolerant religious behavior. While religion "need not" be the motivation, it's funny how the correlation between religion and this sort of "porn moralizing" tends to be very high. That's not a coincidence: most religions are highly sexually repressive.

Again, I don't care what your religion is. I *do* care when people try to impose their religious beliefs on others. Just today I saw someone not just say they didn't like a nude image, but start trying to quote forum rules to imply that the person who posted it should be censored. I have a very big problem with that.


It's simple, porn (with or without clothing), reduces the person to a sex object that is admired or desired for their sexual capacity only.

You repeat this constantly, as if it were a fact. It isn't. It's just your opinion.

This is what you don't seem to get. Nobody has a problem with people like you saying "I think this is porn" or "I don't like this". They take issue with your blanket declarations that your subjective viewpoints -- yes, influenced by your religion -- are objective fact.

You don't get to decide what is or is not porn, except for yourself. You don't get to decide what the motivations or intentions are of an image taken by a stranger of a stranger. You don't even get to decide whether or not the intention or goal of an image determines how it should be categorized... again.. except for yourself.

In this, there is an implicit lack of respect for the humanity of the individual.

Again -- you are attempting to impose your religion-based moralizing on others as if it were a universal truth. It is not. There is no "lack of respect for the humanity of the individual" in an image simply because you don't think it's sufficiently artistic to fall on the "good" side of your entirely arbitrary line dividing "art" and "porn".

Your attempts to read minds and decide which photographers are "artists" and which are showing "disrespect for humanity" are FAR more offensive to me than any nude photograph ever taken.

In all my posts, I have basically stated, reiterated and defended this basic philosophical idea. One that if we all lived by would lead to a world with less conflict, controversy and abuse.

tonyfield covered this very appropriately and amusingly. I would add that the same would be true if people like yourself who know they aren't going to like a "porn" image would stop opening them and then complaining about them. But I guess that would just be too simple. I guess for some, proselytizing is a hard habit to break.

Porn is a word made up by people who think their own standard is the world's standard.

Exactly. And exactly the problem.



+1. Thanks for taking the time to write this.



Jul 17, 2011 at 12:34 AM
wickerprints
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #19 · ART vs PORN. Let's get this over with.


Still waiting on the nekkid man meat, fellas. This thread is useless without pictures! Where are the self-portraits?


Jul 17, 2011 at 12:42 AM
Pfiltz
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #20 · ART vs PORN. Let's get this over with.


Click a link or skip over it, and move on.

Easy.



Jul 17, 2011 at 07:19 AM
       2       end




FM Forums | People Photography | Join Upload & Sell

       2       end
    
 

Welcome back
Log in to your account