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Archive 2011 · Lighting forum dead?

BrianO
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p.3 #1 · Lighting forum dead?

cathpah wrote:
...leave it as a lighting forum, for those that want to learn the technical aspect of lighting, no matter how they may choose utilize that knowledge (whether it's fashion, product, or trains.)

I agree.

If sub-forums get too specific, then we'd need to start adding more and more subforums to cover everyone's favorites. That could result in fragmenting and diluting the knowledge base.

I think it's fine as it stands.

Jun 29, 2011 at 03:37 PM

Lloyd Grace
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p.3 #2 · Lighting forum dead?

Here's my humble take on things:

I am what I would consider as an advanced hobbyist. I have NO desire to be a pro photographer. I do it for the JOY. Two of my other passions became my career and once you cross that line, it sucks the joy out of it.

I come to forums to learn from others. I am constantly looking for a place that will share information in a friendly manner. What I have found is anything but. Every forum seems to have a few very wonderful people who are more than willing to share their years of experience with us sponges who just want to learn - at least for a while. However, more often than not, the same space is overwhelmed with pompous, arrogant and might I add, insecure jerks whose only purpose seems to deride and ridicule ALL others around them. It usually starts with equipment choices. Everyone seems eager to defend their purchase decisions, so much so, that their argument comes down to - "If you don't buy what I bought, you're a complete idiot". It doesn't matter if it's Canon vs. Nikon or God forbid - some other brand, MAC vs. PC, or brand of lighting units, particularly Buff stuff. Then comes technique-critique. Apparently, there's a LOT of people that fell out of the womb as fantastic photographers. They never had to learn, experiment, or fail at any of their shots. Everything they do is incredible - always has been - and they are more than happy to tell you so. And because they are so good, by default, everyone else is inferior. They'll make sure you know that too. The ONLY way to pose, light, frame, and select camera settings, etc. is the way THEY did it. Believe me, I am not a threat to you or your livelihood. If you are really that incredible, you shouldn't have to worry about anyone else.

I have been shooting off and on since 1982 and during that time, the photographers I have met in person have been an awesome, helpful, friendly fraternity. Internet forums however, seem to be a cesspool of condescending egomaniacs. In Fred's defense, I don't know how you police such behavior. Rather than have the joy sucked out of a passion, I choose to look around for the next temporary home while checking in less often. After all, you pretty much know what you're going to see here. I suspect others feel the same way.

Jun 30, 2011 at 09:26 AM

richdavid
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p.3 #3 · Lighting forum dead?

Lloyd Grace wrote:
Here's my humble take on things:

I am what I would consider as an advanced hobbyist. I have NO desire to be a pro photographer. I do it for the JOY. Two of my other passions became my career and once you cross that line, it sucks the joy out of it.

I come to forums to learn from others. I am constantly looking for a place that will share information in a friendly manner. What I have found is anything but. Every forum seems to have a few very wonderful people who are more than willing to share their years...Show more →

+1

Rich

Jul 01, 2011 at 07:38 AM

Carlton Beener
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p.3 #4 · Lighting forum dead?

I wouldn't mind so much having fashion included in this forum, it would eliminate me needing to go to the people forum as much as thats mostly what I look for anyway, not pictures of peoples children and pets. No offense to intended to either, I'm sure they are very cute and or furry.

Jul 01, 2011 at 08:48 PM

mbloof
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p.3 #5 · Lighting forum dead?

Fred Miranda wrote:
It's not dead!

The Lighting & Studio Techniques board never really took off like the other boards on FM. There is a lot of technical discussion going on here but sometimes as photographers, we need something more "visual".
Fred

Thanks for the site Fred, I wander by a few times a week to look in, sometimes post, most times not.

As a suggestion, what this forum is lacking is a FAQ or a series of "stickies" that cover topics that are constantly repeated. If I drop by any given week/month the subject titles are almost always the same (simular) with same/simular content/arguments. When I see nothing new, I move onto somewhere else. The more often I see nothing new, the less often I stop by.

If I were an expert at anything, I'd have to ask myself how much time do I want to invest in providing enlighting answers to the same questions?

Jul 03, 2011 at 12:10 PM

10-75
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p.3 #6 · Lighting forum dead?

RustyBug wrote:
Yup ... many against one.

Basically a cyber-game of "knock-out" that others knew PCB's personality couldn't withstand forever. People knew it and continued to pursue it, albeit feigning otherwise, pretending to be "guardians of the forum" ... Total BS. Cost us plenty in the form of both PCB and the many others who saw the BS & bailed.

Normally, it takes two to tango ... but this time it was many that intentionally exacerbated the scenario. There was never a shortage of people looking to "Tango" with PCB. Most everyone knows about PCB ... but few know how many warnings Fred...Show more →

Rusty, my feelings exactly..... I personally miss PCB.... Was he perfect - No...... Nobody is..... But I think he still added some value to the forum... There were several people here that baited him and he went for it and, they got what they wanted..... Now that he's gone, they'll have to find somebody else to bait .... I just think it's too bad that Fred didn't boot some other individuals as well as it wasn't just PCB that was bringing the forum down as some like to believe............

Jul 04, 2011 at 12:47 PM

RustyBug
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p.3 #7 · Lighting forum dead?

10-75,

In Fred's defense (he sent out multiple warnings) ... yet, the master baiters excelled at walking the line, whereas PCB would just come 'crashing through the wall' when they pushed his buttons hard enough ... makes some sense when you remember that PCB was a former Marine, i.e. "up, over, around or through".

It was probably this tenacious part of PCB's personality that they found most disagreeable ... that or a few of them were simply trolls that subscribed to 'mob mentality' and joined the bandwagon just because they could.

Now, lest anyone think (okay, everyone already does

) I'm a one-sided fan boy of PCB, I did appreciate those who challenged PCB for clarification and explanation. It was a great source of learning for many and was tremendously evidenced by the number of viewers. Yet, those that challenged in good faith were largely overshadowed by the interloping antagonizers. Sadly, the interlopers thought (or at least suggested) they were doing us all a favor, as if they somehow knew that we needed someone to protect us from the dangers of PCB "kool-aid".

The thing that bothers me the most about it is that those same "members" that antagonized PCB, be-little & berate other members as well (albeit a bit more subtly) ... for espousing a different opinion, technique or explanation style, claiming that it isn't appropriate for this forum. To me, this is hypocritically aspiring to apply censorship while they pursue in hiding behind the freedom that Fred affords from censorship. It is not theirs to pressure others into posting as they would have it be, yet they do so with regularity. Many grow weary and simply leave (or acquiesce to lurking) without much fanfare, and the self-proclaimed guardians once again have reduced the diversification, feeling empowered that they again have saved us all.

Despite Fred's efforts to address the baiters (and PCB's response), they knew that as long as they 'walked the line' they could get away with the antagonizing, feigning opinion under the premise of Fred's liberal (and appreciated) resistance to censorship. It was an abysmal example of liberty exploitation, escalating to demise.

I was surprised by and appreciative of Fred's re-instatment of PCB. Yet, I knew the antagonization would resume. I (presumably others as well) tried to get PCB to tone it down a bit, in hope that he would remain as a member. PCB did make an effort following the first re-instatement. But the antagonizers were unaffected by PCB's efforts (albeit small), as they simply had a mission to complete. I got away from the forum for a bit before the second banishment, so I really don't know the specific details surrounding it ... but I can only imagine it was more of the same from both sides ... leaving Fred with little choice on how to proceed with a "lose-lose" decision to be made.

Some people 'tuck tail and run for cover' ... PCB was not / is not that kind of a person ... you always knew where he stood, right or wrong, agree or disagree. For some reason, people just felt that meant he was available for attack as an incessant target and it gave them license to shoot rather than opportunity to display virtue in diversity, i.e. it was a 'witch hunt' ... sink or burn, PCB chose burn.

Much dialogue is given around PCB, but the PCB story only represents the most obvious example of the ills associated with members antagonizing fellow members.
Moving forward to revive the forum ...

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
George Santayana, Vol. I Reason In Common Sense

Kent Southers
FM Fan-Boy

FM ROCKS !!!

Thanks Fred.

Jul 04, 2011 at 01:26 PM

Ronny Mills
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p.3 #8 · Lighting forum dead?

"Lighting" is alot less worthwhile without PCB and others who seem to have reduced their voice ... as evidenced by "Extension Cords" given sticky status. Jeez....

Oh well, not my house nor my rules ...

Jul 05, 2011 at 08:50 PM

JDeV
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p.3 #9 · Lighting forum dead?

I would love a forum specializing in fashion/beauty. Having people like Ben Kanarek etc. answering my questions would be fantastic...let's do it!

Jon

Jul 06, 2011 at 06:50 PM

shutterbug guy
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p.3 #10 · Lighting forum dead?

Jul 08, 2011 at 06:33 PM

dmward
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p.3 #11 · Lighting forum dead?

This is hilarious. Light is the essence of photography.
Having a forum that is focused on lighting seems to me to be essential for a photography centric forum site.
Also, we have to accept that the internet is replete with people who hide behind its curtain to bolster their self-engandisment.

PCB and others who have useful information are essential to a forum such as this. The fact that other bate and he raises to the challenge is part of the theatre called the internet.

There have been, as noted, over the years some very knowledgable contributors, PCB was one of them. There are other fora with much more active lighting forums where PCB has never posted. But there is still the equipment centric bashing. Let's face it some people like Chevrolets even though they are known to be inferior to Fords. :-)

Let's get back to discussing lighting.

Jul 08, 2011 at 11:20 PM

ukphotographer
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p.3 #12 · Lighting forum dead?

shutterbug guy wrote:
So well said, would you mind if I quoted what you said here on other forums?

Roger

A forum is a two way street, unless you actually post something, (once a week is a little low) the forum will be dead. If you want to learn something - sign up on a course, you'll then get somebody who your paying telling you how 'The ONLY way to pose, light, frame, and select camera settings, etc. is the way THEY do it'. Funny, I suspect you wouldn't argue with that. If things are not fast enough for you, you'll need to wait until those same people come back and tell you the way THEY do it, because THEY are actually doing it, and who are quite happy to justify why they do it in a public forum.

Jul 09, 2011 at 05:49 AM

mbloof
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p.3 #13 · Lighting forum dead?

Is the forum dead because ONE person left? No. Come to think of it, I recall that PCB has support forums on HIS SITE that folks who wish to get direct support can venture to. Then again, I'd bet that the kind of tomfoolery that went on in this forum would not be tolerated over there.

At the end of the day, if I wish to be enlightened on PCB products, I know where I can get information directly from the source.

While I don't really care one way or the other if PCB is able to post in THIS forum, I do rather care about people being rude, crude and obnoxious. As others have mentioned, there is not "one way" to light something. If the wall of books on lighting at the local book seller is any indication, there seems to be countless ways of doing things with different sorts of equipment.

Like anything where nothing is set in stone, different methods reflect different styles and tastes. What is in 'vogue' in Europe might not be somewhere else. Some people might LIKE "1980s style" images. To each their own.

All the hub-a-bub about lighting styles reminds me of the distinct levels of debate that I learned in "debate101" as a freshman in highschool:

1. Noble's - compare concepts and ideas
2. Scientists - discuss facts and figures
3. Commoners - will have lively debate over the quality each others education and place of learning
4. Simpletons - will have heated arguments and trade insults over the quality of each others family tree
5. Neanderthals - will physically fight and beat each other with fists, sticks and stones

the idea was #3, #4 and #5 was never to be used.

from what I've read here and elsewhere, not many people took "debate101".

Jul 09, 2011 at 05:15 PM

ukphotographer
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p.3 #14 · Lighting forum dead?

mbloof wrote:
Like anything where nothing is set in stone, different methods reflect different styles and tastes. What is in 'vogue' in Europe might not be somewhere else. Some people might LIKE "1980s style" images. To each their own.

As long as they don't state their preference or have an opinion eh? - I get the idea.

The trouble is, if you complain about something - you'd better be sure to have the balls to stand and be counted and if making a point, try to make that point obvious and ensure your base your point on facts.

Your point is ??

Jul 09, 2011 at 06:26 PM

miccullen
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p.3 #15 · Lighting forum dead?

mbloof wrote:
1. Noble's - compare concepts and ideas

Noble's what?

Jul 09, 2011 at 06:30 PM

ukphotographer
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p.3 #16 · Lighting forum dead?

There's nothing better than a heated debate, the PCB stuff parted from debate as the subject of the debate was no longer of a product but of a personal creation. Any sort of debate in those circumstances was more of an invited - yet - unwelcomed crit than a discussion. Problems only ever seem to arise when some faction decides individually, or worse, as a group they're right and insists that others should agree and conform. This barely ever happens, and sometimes re-examining the facts can do a world of good. Many product problems will work themselves out eventually, and the solutions to those problems are often inspired by those who most virulently point out the failings in the first place.

The most active forum on FM seems to be the 'Buy & Sell', and exclamations of 'I just bought a ####' in whatever forum - you only need to look at the frequency of these postings to evaluate where the activity is. Where might that suggest the interest of the forums lie in general?

Jul 09, 2011 at 06:57 PM

Todd56
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p.3 #17 · Lighting forum dead?

Buff was aggressively defending his cherished sliders, AB color temp, reading duration at t.5, lack of dome and more on forums, all this while thinking and working on the exact opposite type of product at his shop! Worst, this new product was 100% inspired by technology borrowed from the brands he would trash the most on forums using cost of the product as single ammunition. Was this really forum material? I don't think so.
I'm not for manufacturers on forums. It never matters at all what they have said in the past, they'll deny, ignore or laugh at it just like that. It's always about the next sale, because like with politics, they know people will forget or new ones will join and fall for the next thing. This will always clash on forums, there is no way around it.

Jul 09, 2011 at 10:00 PM

lsuber
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p.3 #18 · Lighting forum dead?

I, as a new-to-the-Lighting-Forum guy, really really hate to find out that a manufacturer and CEO used to actively participate in this forum and was run off. That is a rare and invaluable thing to have someone in PCB's position participate in the daily discussion. Has anybody seen any posts lately from Mr. Canon? Mr. Nikon? Mr. Elinchrom? Mr. Profoto? That was a unique opportunity you guys had, to have open dialogue with somebody at the top of one of the major manufacturers. I've since registered on his tech forum and look forward to learning as much as I can over there. In a PCB vs the Forum Monkeys situation, I sure wish the industry leader would have won out. I probably won't or can't gain as much knowledge from the monkeys.

Just my two cents, but like a previous poster put it, not my house, not my rules.

Jul 10, 2011 at 09:23 AM

Todd56
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p.3 #19 · Lighting forum dead?

lsuber wrote:
I, as a new-to-the-Lighting-Forum guy, really really hate to find out that a manufacturer and CEO used to actively participate in this forum and was run off. That is a rare and invaluable thing to have someone in PCB's position participate in the daily discussion. Has anybody seen any posts lately from Mr. Canon? Mr. Nikon? Mr. Elinchrom? Mr. Profoto? That was a unique opportunity you guys had, to have open dialogue with somebody at the top of one of the major manufacturers. I've since registered on his tech forum and look forward to learning as much as I can...Show more →

If we are all Monkeys, I believe you should have signed up on PCB forum a long time ago and not come back here. But I see you are back.

Jul 10, 2011 at 10:27 AM

Crash10
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p.3 #20 · Lighting forum dead?

lsuber wrote:
I, as a new-to-the-Lighting-Forum guy, really really hate to find out that a manufacturer and CEO used to actively participate in this forum and was run off. That is a rare and invaluable thing to have someone in PCB's position participate in the daily discussion. Has anybody seen any posts lately from Mr. Canon? Mr. Nikon? Mr. Elinchrom? Mr. Profoto? That was a unique opportunity you guys had, to have open dialogue with somebody at the top of one of the major manufacturers. I've since registered on his tech forum and look forward to learning as much as I can...Show more →

You missed the best part. Paul was challenged on a flash duration comparison yet the dude posted specs that were LONGER then Paul gave his competitor credit for...then the dude posted that he's melted his cap on...absolutely hilarious!

Jul 10, 2011 at 11:26 AM

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