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Archive 2011 · Voigtlander 12/5.6 Questions

  
 
ricardovaste
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p.1 #1 · Voigtlander 12/5.6 Questions


I've only knowledge of a-mount lenses, and a few adaptable options, so was looking for those with experience of rangefinder lenses here as I've honestly got very, very little.

1) I see you can get a black or silver finish, but are there different versions of this lens? If there are, I'd be interested in the differences, if just cosmetic or optical.

2) Does anyone use this lens on APS-C? I thought it might make a nice, reasonably compact 18mm lens, where I could easily hyperfocal & shoot at f8-11 and easily get lots of DOF.

3) I've only ever seen samples from film. Are there any glare issues or other digital related problems I should be aware of?

They seem to be around 450-500 GBP second hand, and not really much more new. Confusion over 'versions' comes from photos like these, where obviously they are different mounts, but they physically look quite different too much makes me thing they might be a completely different design:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Voigtlander-12mm-Sony-Nex-3-NEX-5-NEX-7-NEX-C3-VG10-/330569213387?pt=UK_Lenses_Filters_Lenses&hash=item4cf775e5cb

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Voigtlander-Ultra-Wide-Heliar-12mm-f-5-6-Black-L39-M39-/230507858329?pt=UK_Lenses_Filters_Lenses&hash=item35ab56c999

Many thanks!



May 26, 2011 at 12:46 PM
rscheffler
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p.1 #2 · Voigtlander 12/5.6 Questions


There are two versions. The first is now discontinued and is in LTM (Leica thread mount) with a very minimal lens 'hood'. It doesn't have rangefinder coupling, which would be irrelevant for use on a NEX. It's the second link you posted. Not sure if this version was also available in silver.

The current version is the first link you posted and has a much larger permanently attached hood, Leica M bayonet mount with rangefinder coupling. Only available in black.

Optically they are identical.

More info here: http://cameraquest.com/voigtlen.htm scroll down the page a bit.

Not sure how it will perform on APS-C. You'll likely have some degree of edge color shift. On the Leica M9, it appears to behave better than the Voigtlander 15mm, so might also be less problematic on APS-C.



May 26, 2011 at 01:45 PM
ricardovaste
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p.1 #3 · Voigtlander 12/5.6 Questions


rscheffler - thank you! Just what I wanted to hear. I'd definately have a preference for the earlier version, simply because the hood is much smaller making it easier to store/use.. and I can't imagine a hood making a great deal of difference with a lens this wide, but I could be wrong.

I'll wait, hopefully some will have hands on experience with it on a NEX/APS-C.



May 26, 2011 at 01:50 PM
ken.vs.ryu
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p.1 #4 · Voigtlander 12/5.6 Questions


I love it on my nex. I have the 1st version and I'm still learning. I have some flare and vignetting. The IQ and focal length outweigh the problems for me.


May 26, 2011 at 02:05 PM
ricardovaste
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p.1 #5 · Voigtlander 12/5.6 Questions


Hi Ken,

Would you care to share any examples? Minor vignette wouldn't be an issue for me. and flare would really depend upon how well it's controlled. Glare is the only thing I'm curious on, hate those low contrast 'blobs'!



May 26, 2011 at 02:10 PM
rscheffler
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p.1 #6 · Voigtlander 12/5.6 Questions


Ricardo, have you looked here? https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/969329
The first post has a couple 12mm samples.

I'd also prefer the smaller first version for the reasons you state, and the hood is removable.

Re: the hood. It's difficult to say. My finding with the Zeiss 21 that I use on the M9 is that lens flare is much worse when the sun/bright light is just outside the edge of the frame where a hood might be effective. If the sun is in the frame, flare is minimal to nonexistent. This is also my experience with the Canon TS-E 17mm. I also have the CV15 and it flares more than the Zeiss, including when the sun is in the frame. I haven't used the 12mm, so can't say if it's closer in performance to the more flare prone 15mm or more behaved like the other ultra wides I have.

ken.vs.ryu: I'm also curious about the nature of the flare you've seen. Also, do you get edge color shifts? It appears to happen with many adapted wide angle rangefinder lenses, from what I've seen on the NEX thread.

Ron



May 26, 2011 at 02:14 PM
millsart
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p.1 #7 · Voigtlander 12/5.6 Questions


Horrible color shift on the NEX, really any RF lenses wider than 35mm will suffer this

Sony 16mm with the $114 ultra wide converter works just as well, will AF, is f2.8 instead of f5.6, much lighter and about half the price.



May 26, 2011 at 02:23 PM
ricardovaste
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p.1 #8 · Voigtlander 12/5.6 Questions


@Ron thanks again, I hadn't seen that. They look pretty good, contrast and detail. Although I'm not sure of the settings, I assume the second one is cropped.

Still interested in flare performance.

@millsart: Samples? Good to know hands on reports, but really needs to be backed up, it would be appreciated. I'm not interested in the 16/2.8 + adapter simply as I wouldn't enjoy that combo as much, as this would really just be for pleasure.

Can't believed I missed this before, Voigtlander 12/5.6 (M mount, new) + NEX review

""Classic" rangefinder lenses used on digital camera tend to produce a color shift in the image corners. This is a major problem on the Leica M8/M9 due to their bigger (APS-H/full-format) but the issue isn't quite as pronounced on the APS-C sensor of the NEX cameras - at least for the Heliar 12mm. Nonetheless the shift can be noticed at times but it can be resolved fairly easily (along with the light-falloff) during post-processing e.g. in Photoshop ... if that's an option for you. All it takes is an image mask - from here on the solution is just a mouse-click away. "

That sounds fine to me. They don't mention flare on that report though.. that would be the only thing for me now, the rest sounds good...



May 26, 2011 at 03:07 PM
jcolwell
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p.1 #9 · Voigtlander 12/5.6 Questions


ricardovaste wrote:
2) Does anyone use this lens on APS-C? I thought it might make a nice, reasonably compact 18mm lens, where I could easily hyperfocal & shoot at f8-11 and easily get lots of DOF.


You really can't use it on an APS-C camera, unless you find one that has a register (or lens mount to sensor distance) that's compatible with the 28.0mm Leica M mount (LM) or 28.8mm Leica Thread Mount (LTM) mount. In comparison, the Sony, Canon, Nikon, and Pentax DSLR registers are 43.5mm, 44.0mm, 45.5mm, and 46.5mm, respectively.

For example, consider a Canon APS-C DSLR camera, with 44.0mm register. If you're after the first version of the 12/5.6 (LTM), then you'd have to get the mount end of the lens (44.0 - 28.8) = 15.2mm inside of the Canon body lens mount to achieve "infinity focus". If you simply stick the LTM lens on the fromt of the EOS body (with some kind of simple ring adapter), then the most distant target that you could focus on would be only a few centimenters away. It could be a dynamite macro lens (but kind of wide and kind of slow), but it's not a viable general purpose lens.



May 26, 2011 at 04:10 PM
millsart
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p.1 #10 · Voigtlander 12/5.6 Questions


I think there are some samples in the NEX image thread, including some from the 16mm with adapter (which is the best wide performer I've seen for the NEX). I sold my all my M mount glass as well as my NEX for an X100.

I don't really get why you wouldn't enjoy the 16 plus adapter though ? Then you'd get both an 18mm equiv (same as the 12 w/crop factor) and also a 24mm equiv.

I don't really see where the pleasure in the VC12 comes from as its bigger, cost way more, requires manual focus, and has all the color cast issues you'll be stuck trying to correct with CornerFix, in addition to the heavy vignetting.

I'm not anti VC or anything, I actually really liked both the 12 and 15 on my M8 (Not as much on the M9, too wide, vigetting etc) but on the NEX they just didn't give much bang for the buck.


Go ahead and buy one plus the proper adapter though and give it a try. Sometimes that the only way to know for sure.



May 26, 2011 at 04:16 PM
millsart
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p.1 #11 · Voigtlander 12/5.6 Questions


Mounts and focuses just fine in the APS-C Sony NEX with a M39 (if your using the first version of the lens) or regular M mount adapter.

jcolwell wrote:
You really can't use it on an APS-C camera, unless you find one that has a register (or lens mount to sensor distance) that's compatible with the 28.0mm Leica M mount (LM) or 28.8mm Leica Thread Mount (LTM) mount. In comparison, the Sony, Canon, Nikon, and Pentax DSLR registers are 43.5mm, 44.0mm, 45.5mm, and 46.5mm, respectively.

For example, consider a Canon APS-C DSLR camera, with 44.0mm register. If you're after the first version of the 12/5.6 (LTM), then you'd have to get the mount end of the lens (44.0 - 28.8) = 15.2mm inside of the Canon body lens mount
...Show more



May 26, 2011 at 04:18 PM
ricardovaste
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p.1 #12 · Voigtlander 12/5.6 Questions


@millsart: Thanks for clearing that up with the compatability.. got a bit confused then! Thanks for your additional thoughts too, very helpful. Colours casts weren't mentioned in the review, can you elaborate? Also, do you have any opinions on flare/glare control?

RE: 16 Sony vs 12/5.6. Just a personal thing, I'd rather have a manual lens with a real focusing scale, and I generally prefer better build quality these days. But it's a personal thing, bang for buck is usually important, but I'm really just trying to find out info on the lens at this point to see if it could work.



May 26, 2011 at 04:23 PM
jcolwell
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p.1 #13 · Voigtlander 12/5.6 Questions


millsart wrote:
Mounts and focuses just fine in the APS-C Sony NEX with a M39 (if your using the first version of the lens) or regular M mount adapter.




As I said above, it will work fine with an APS-C camera that is compatible with the LM/LTM register, like the Sony Nex. Perhaps I erred in assuming the OP was talkiong about a DSLR body.

How about it ricardovaste , what type of APS-C camera are you talking about?






May 26, 2011 at 04:25 PM
ricardovaste
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p.1 #14 · Voigtlander 12/5.6 Questions


@jcolwell: Sorry for any confusion . You're right, I only use SLR bodies, so perhaps this is why you thought that. But in this situation, I was infact looking at a (future) NEX-type solution (ie with a shorter register distance).


May 26, 2011 at 04:28 PM
jcolwell
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p.1 #15 · Voigtlander 12/5.6 Questions


ricardovaste wrote:
@jcolwell: Sorry for any confusion . You're right, I only use SLR bodies, so perhaps this is why you thought that. But in this situation, I was infact looking at a (future) NEX-type solution (ie with a shorter register distance).





May 26, 2011 at 04:29 PM
rscheffler
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p.1 #16 · Voigtlander 12/5.6 Questions


Regarding the color shift issue, the solution in Leica land is to use the freeware program Cornerfix. It's designed for DNG RAW files, so if your plan is to use a NEX, you'll have to convert the RAWs to DNG, run through Cornerfix, then edit in a suitable DNG converter, such as Lightroom, C1, Aperture, etc. If you use C1, you can skip Cornerfix and create a custom LCC for the lens and camera combo. The advantage of using Cornerfix over the steps outlined at the photozone review is it's pretty much automated and fast. But based on the photozone sample images it doesn't look like edge color shift is that objectionable with the 12mm. It would probably be a lot worse with the 15.

There is one sample image at photozone with the sun in the frame. I don't see any flare, and in that respect, it appears to be slightly better than the 15mm. The real test though would be sun out of the frame but shining on the front element. At least with the NEX's live view you can try shading the lens with your hand etc. and see when it appears in the image - something that's a lot more difficult to do well with a rangefinder camera.



May 26, 2011 at 04:37 PM
rscheffler
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p.1 #17 · Voigtlander 12/5.6 Questions


To give you an idea of what the edge color shift can look like, this is the 15mm on a Leica M9 before correction:

http://ronscheffler.com/samples/fmm9/20110215/20110215_0010.jpg

But the 12mm is not as bad as the 15, and as you'll see in the photozone samples, the color shift is very subtle. You'll also see that the lens has some CA, but so does the 15, and it's possible to correct this in post.

Maybe by the time such a future NEX body is released Sony will also have a wider angle option, or at least info about one...



May 26, 2011 at 04:43 PM
ricardovaste
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p.1 #18 · Voigtlander 12/5.6 Questions


Thanks for the extra info Ron. I'd also missed that one sample on the review site with the sun in the frame - looks good. No falre or glare, just a star burst which could be controlled with better exposure. Thanks for explaining the colour shift as well, as that honestly isn't what I thought it was! Sometimes with my wider lenses I get 'enhanced' CA towards the corners, I assumed colour shift was just this but exaggerated, but it's something quite different. The sample you've shown me from the 15 does look pretty bad in honesty, but as you say on 35mm and not the 12/5.6 - I can't really see this on the 12/5.6.

I think CA could be an issue with the 12/5.6, but I think it could be easy to process out. I do think this lens could be a 'winner' for what I had in mind. Even if Sony bring something else out, it likely won't have a focusing scale, it'll likely be way more expensive, and it'll likely be a zoom as well... just can't see them making a prime this small, this wide and i this sort of price range.

Thanks everyone, very useful info .



May 26, 2011 at 05:05 PM
sebboh
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p.1 #19 · Voigtlander 12/5.6 Questions


millsart wrote:
I think there are some samples in the NEX image thread, including some from the 16mm with adapter (which is the best wide performer I've seen for the NEX). I sold my all my M mount glass as well as my NEX for an X100.

I don't really get why you wouldn't enjoy the 16 plus adapter though ? Then you'd get both an 18mm equiv (same as the 12 w/crop factor) and also a 24mm equiv.

I don't really see where the pleasure in the VC12 comes from as its bigger, cost way more, requires manual focus, and has all the
...Show more

being manual focus with a real focus ring and distance scale is actually a plus for me. i've been looking at 100% shots from the cv on NEX and comparing to my sony 16mm without the adapter and i like what i see from the cv more than the sony (though i've only been able to find a few full sized shots from the cv). i can't imagine the adapter could improve the look of the 16mm. is the m39 12mm really that much bigger than the sony 16mm plus adapter?



May 26, 2011 at 10:07 PM
millsart
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p.1 #20 · Voigtlander 12/5.6 Questions


Thing you have to remember though is that the distance scale on the lens is going to be off, just like most any adapted lens is, and the wider the lens, the more they seem to be off.

The Sony wide adapter really had no degradation I could see. I mean the 16 is the sharpest lens ever to start with, but its certainly useable and again, we are talking about a $300 lens combo vs a $900 lens.

Sizewise they are about the same. VC12 is a fairly large lens for a RF with the big built in hood. Handled okay but its a little awkward for a jacket pocket etc.


The VC12 was actually the first adapted lens I got for my NEX5, as I really thought an all M kit was going to be the way to go.

VC12, Zeiss ZM 25mm , Zeiss ZM 35mm f2.8 C, Zeiss 50 planar and Leica 90 Elmarit-M was the plan.

I actually had all the other lens from when I had my M9, but bought the 12 because I thought it would be a great wide angle.

I thought I wanted all M mount glass exclusively and I was sure it was going to perform better.

Well, the other lenses all did, though the ZM25 does get a little color shift (but its probably the best wider than 35mm lens I've tried on NEX) but the 12 just left me really flat.

Tons of color case, vingetting, little awkward size wise and I paid $900 for it. Just didn't feel I was getting very good value for my money.

Tried the 16mm just for the heck of it and was really surprised. $200 lens that weights like 2 ounces or something crazy light, had AF, could fit in my pocket and looked pretty good. Got the wide adapter as well because it was just $114 and again, great quality lens, snaps right on/off and I had 18 and 24mm equiv with performance as good optically as the VC and with none of the issues.

Nothing against M or even M39 glass, but having tried nearly everything out there, just can't say its the way to go for a NEX for wides.

Again, I get the whole romanticism about it, how it feels good in your hand, all brass and glass, no plastic, smooth MF feel etc, but functionally, on the crop sensor with no offset microlenses, just doesn't really perform that well.

Always fun to try different stuff of course too, and thats the best way to learn but after using it all, I ended up with the cheap Sony lens combo.

Still the best thing out there to date, until we hopefully see some new E mount lenses coming out




May 26, 2011 at 10:40 PM
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