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Archive 2005Tilt Shift Confusion!
p.1 #1Tilt Shift Confusion!
Hi
I have just bought a TS-E 90mm. I need help on how to use it though. Can anyone point me to a link, or give me some practical info on how to get the most from it. I really need help with understanding how I control the amount of blur and what is and what is not in focus.
Thanks!
Martin.
I have just bought a TS-E 90mm. I need help on how to use it though. Can anyone point me to a link, or give me some practical info on how to get the most from it. I really need help with understanding how I control the amount of blur and what is and what is not in focus.
Thanks!
Martin.
Apr 22, 2005 at 12:29 PM
p.1 #2Tilt Shift Confusion!
shift controls the angle of objects and can straighten out lines. tilt controls the focus plane and can change the depth of field.
your best bet is to go play with your lens and see how things change when you tilt and shift the lens.
-erik
your best bet is to go play with your lens and see how things change when you tilt and shift the lens.
-erik
Apr 22, 2005 at 12:41 PM
p.1 #4Tilt Shift Confusion!
Thanks but is there a procedure such as focus, tilt, recompose, shoot. Do you only focus once? I'm just unclear about it.
Thanks.
Thanks.
Apr 22, 2005 at 12:44 PM
p.1 #5Tilt Shift Confusion!
I don't have a Canon TS-E but here's some photos from my MC Hartblei 80mm super rotator.
In this first shot (actually with a 70-200 IS and 500D) the plane of focus is 'normal' and is aligned perpendicular to where I'm pointing the lens. This shot was pretty well stopped down to around f 16 or so to increase the depth of field.
Now in the following shot, I used the 80mm super rotator. I tilted the top of the down the full 8º. Due to the Scheimpflug principle, the plane of focus is now tilted down a full 16º... roughly coinciding with the yellow parts of each petal on the iris. This is what I wanted. I set the aperture to about f6.5-f9 or so (don't remember exactly) in order to make use of the relatively short depth of field and it's affects on a macro shot like this.
I have found that the shift feature is almost unusable on an 80-90mm lens when attached to a 1.6x crop body. I'm sure it's useful on a wide angle shift lens like the TS-E 24mm, but in our case, the 8mm (12mm on my lens) of shift doesn't give you much of a useful range.
Do some digging on the Scheimpflug principle. There are some good diagrams that explain how it works. On my lens, I can infinitely adjust the axis of both shifting and tilting independantly. On your TS-E, you need to decide which angle to set the tilt and shift at (via screws) and keep it that way... a disadvantage in my opinion based on how many times I adjusted the angle of the tilt in these shots...
Enjoy,
ian
In this first shot (actually with a 70-200 IS and 500D) the plane of focus is 'normal' and is aligned perpendicular to where I'm pointing the lens. This shot was pretty well stopped down to around f 16 or so to increase the depth of field.
Now in the following shot, I used the 80mm super rotator. I tilted the top of the down the full 8º. Due to the Scheimpflug principle, the plane of focus is now tilted down a full 16º... roughly coinciding with the yellow parts of each petal on the iris. This is what I wanted. I set the aperture to about f6.5-f9 or so (don't remember exactly) in order to make use of the relatively short depth of field and it's affects on a macro shot like this.
I have found that the shift feature is almost unusable on an 80-90mm lens when attached to a 1.6x crop body. I'm sure it's useful on a wide angle shift lens like the TS-E 24mm, but in our case, the 8mm (12mm on my lens) of shift doesn't give you much of a useful range.
Do some digging on the Scheimpflug principle. There are some good diagrams that explain how it works. On my lens, I can infinitely adjust the axis of both shifting and tilting independantly. On your TS-E, you need to decide which angle to set the tilt and shift at (via screws) and keep it that way... a disadvantage in my opinion based on how many times I adjusted the angle of the tilt in these shots...
Enjoy,
ian
Apr 22, 2005 at 12:49 PM
p.1 #6Tilt Shift Confusion!
I am curious now. What focal length 24,45 or 90 is the best one if you are interested in selective focus. On which lens would it stand out the most? That second flower shot is outstanding, Ian.
Apr 22, 2005 at 01:25 PM
p.1 #7Tilt Shift Confusion!
Pavel, they should all do what you want. It depends on the size of the object and the range of the selective focus you want.
If it's macro and product shots, the 90mm is definitely your best bet.
And to answer mpaul73's question about focusing:
You focus and meter the subject before tilting. Since the lens rotates around the nodal point, the focus position shouldn't change. On some lenses, shifting and tilting results in loss of light, requiring a readjustment of your shot settings. For this reason, I always shoot in full manual mode when using my Super Rotator.
If it's macro and product shots, the 90mm is definitely your best bet.
And to answer mpaul73's question about focusing:
You focus and meter the subject before tilting. Since the lens rotates around the nodal point, the focus position shouldn't change. On some lenses, shifting and tilting results in loss of light, requiring a readjustment of your shot settings. For this reason, I always shoot in full manual mode when using my Super Rotator.
Apr 22, 2005 at 01:29 PM
p.1 #8Tilt Shift Confusion!
Thanks ... just one more set of questions ... I checked out the offerings of the hartbleis ... and they offer a 65, 80 and 120. Any experience with the other two, or just opinions of them. Are they likely good quality (they look like they are built well from the photos) and how are they compared to the expensive canons? The rotating mechanism seems more versatile. I imagine this gets one into a different mindset, using these kind of lenses and opens up a whole new world. What kin of thinking went into your decision to get the Harblei and the 80 in particular?
Apr 22, 2005 at 01:38 PM
p.1 #9Tilt Shift Confusion!
I've been putting off buying the ts-e90 for a while now, and I wanted to get it today, but alas, B&H was closed for Pesach at 12:45. That said, I didn't find tilt as useful on the wide angle side because the DOF of a WA lens is much greater than say, the 90. I wonder why the Leica and Zeiss offerings of the PC lenses only offer shift and not tilt? Hrmm...
Apr 22, 2005 at 01:53 PM
p.1 #10Tilt Shift Confusion!
My initial thinking was, "I can purchase the Hartblei 80mm for $300 and not be murdered by my wife for spending $1100 on the Canon TS-E 90mm." I followed that up with the fact that I could arbitrarily rotate the shift and tilt mechanisms separately... where the TS-E is locked in until you decide to disassemble the lens and rotate in 90º increments.
The Hartblei Super Rotator is all metal and seems to be really well built. The image quality is what really suprised me... you can see from the images how sharp it is. The full frame crops are just as sharp.
What you don't get on the Hartblei is camera control of aperture. Everything is manual on these. You must either shoot in Av mode or M and remember to set the aperture ring to your desired f-stop after composing and focusing at f2.8.
If you want to get a hartblei, be sure to check eBay. I purchased mine from KievCamera. They sell their items on eBay for cheaper than if you ordered from their web site. Same brand new product, same shipping, different price.
The Hartblei Super Rotator is all metal and seems to be really well built. The image quality is what really suprised me... you can see from the images how sharp it is. The full frame crops are just as sharp.
What you don't get on the Hartblei is camera control of aperture. Everything is manual on these. You must either shoot in Av mode or M and remember to set the aperture ring to your desired f-stop after composing and focusing at f2.8.
If you want to get a hartblei, be sure to check eBay. I purchased mine from KievCamera. They sell their items on eBay for cheaper than if you ordered from their web site. Same brand new product, same shipping, different price.
Apr 22, 2005 at 01:57 PM
p.1 #11Tilt Shift Confusion!
Ian-
what are you using the Hartblei lens on? does it require an adaptor? How does it compare to the ts-e 90? This is an interesting idea I had not previously considered, sure would save some dough as well.
what are you using the Hartblei lens on? does it require an adaptor? How does it compare to the ts-e 90? This is an interesting idea I had not previously considered, sure would save some dough as well.
Apr 22, 2005 at 02:02 PM
p.1 #12Tilt Shift Confusion!
Glowrider... on the wide end, Shift is more useful because you can use it to correct for converging verticals in-camera. Tilt is more useful on longer focal lengths because you can use it for extreme altering of the focal plane angle.
That said, there are uses for both on the 24mm... and I still want one because Hartblei doesn't offer a 24mm or wider Super Rotator.
In the case of a long field of flowers leading out to a mountain range you might want to keep everything in focus, from the foreground to the mountains. Since you want the best light, you're shooting just after sunrise. Without tilt, you would need to stop the lens down considerably... say to f16 or higher. This pushes your camera down to 1/30s and the morning breeze turns your field of flowers into a field of blurry mess.
Enter the TS-E. By tilting the lens to align the plane of focus to the field of flowers you can now shoot at f5.6. The extra few stops of light you've gained now gives you 1/120s shutter speed and fairly movement-free flowers while keeping everything in-focus.
That said, there are uses for both on the 24mm... and I still want one because Hartblei doesn't offer a 24mm or wider Super Rotator.
In the case of a long field of flowers leading out to a mountain range you might want to keep everything in focus, from the foreground to the mountains. Since you want the best light, you're shooting just after sunrise. Without tilt, you would need to stop the lens down considerably... say to f16 or higher. This pushes your camera down to 1/30s and the morning breeze turns your field of flowers into a field of blurry mess.
Enter the TS-E. By tilting the lens to align the plane of focus to the field of flowers you can now shoot at f5.6. The extra few stops of light you've gained now gives you 1/120s shutter speed and fairly movement-free flowers while keeping everything in-focus.
Apr 22, 2005 at 02:03 PM
p.1 #13Tilt Shift Confusion!
I understand the use, and I said before that 'I' didn't find it useful, not that it wasn't useful (although I hinted that Leica and Zeiss made a similar determination). But please, more info on the Hartblei, particularly the 80mm and 120mm ts-pc if you have any...
Apr 22, 2005 at 02:12 PM
p.1 #14Tilt Shift Confusion!
So far I have just played with my copy of the lens. Here's a link someone added to my thread comparing the lensbaby and the 90mm T/S (Thread https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/212384/0 )
Link
http://www.outbackphoto.com/workflow/wf_42/essay.html
Link
http://www.outbackphoto.com/workflow/wf_42/essay.html
Apr 22, 2005 at 02:23 PM
p.1 #15Tilt Shift Confusion!
Here is one of the best sites for explaining all this in simple terms. www.Hoothollow.com/Default%Qofmonth%20JulyAug%202001.html
Ray
Ray
Apr 22, 2005 at 03:09 PM
p.1 #16Tilt Shift Confusion!
Here's a comparison of the 80mm to the Canon 70-200L:
http://homepage.mac.com/rtolin/pruebaarsat.htm
I owned the Arsat 35mm T-S, but the build quality was not as good as the 80mm. Optical quality was good on a 1.6x camera though.
I have also rented the Canon 24mm and used it on both a film and 1.6x digital camera - the images didn't look that great - they lacked the snap and sharpness I'm used to from my other lenses.
http://homepage.mac.com/rtolin/pruebaarsat.htm
I owned the Arsat 35mm T-S, but the build quality was not as good as the 80mm. Optical quality was good on a 1.6x camera though.
I have also rented the Canon 24mm and used it on both a film and 1.6x digital camera - the images didn't look that great - they lacked the snap and sharpness I'm used to from my other lenses.
Apr 22, 2005 at 03:29 PM
p.1 #19Tilt Shift Confusion!
VaRiX wrote:
Glowrider... on the wide end, Shift is more useful because you can use it to correct for converging verticals in-camera. Tilt is more useful on longer focal lengths because you can use it for extreme altering of the focal plane angle.
That said, there are uses for both on the 24mm... and I still want one because Hartblei doesn't offer a 24mm or wider Super Rotator.
In the case of a long field of flowers leading out to a mountain range you might want to keep everything in focus, from the foreground to the mountains. Since you want the best light, you're...Show more →
Since the wide angle is what you want for landscapes, doesn't that make tilt very useful on the wide end?
Glowrider... on the wide end, Shift is more useful because you can use it to correct for converging verticals in-camera. Tilt is more useful on longer focal lengths because you can use it for extreme altering of the focal plane angle.
That said, there are uses for both on the 24mm... and I still want one because Hartblei doesn't offer a 24mm or wider Super Rotator.
In the case of a long field of flowers leading out to a mountain range you might want to keep everything in focus, from the foreground to the mountains. Since you want the best light, you're...Show more →
Since the wide angle is what you want for landscapes, doesn't that make tilt very useful on the wide end?
Apr 22, 2005 at 03:56 PM
p.1 #20Tilt Shift Confusion!
When I use tilt, I find a little goes a long way. I focus on the closest point I want to be in focus before tilting and then tilt, watching for the farthest point I want to be in focus, come into focus. I will generally play with my focus at that point, too. You'll be surprised if your experience is the same as mine at how little tilt is necessary in a lot of cases. (I have the 24 t/s.)
Apr 22, 2005 at 04:06 PM