I originally came here to discuss lighting styles and technique, not to get involved in brand wars, yet somehow I let myself get sucked in. I suspect that is true of many participants and bystanders as well.
Maybe that stage in the evolution of this forum is over.
Over the past 26 years I use or have used virtually every major brand of lighting, light modifier, tripod, tripod head, light meter, and camera for work ranging from simple press release head shots to book covers; for events from small weddings to international conventions; from small local editorial assignments to big time magazines and newspaper assignments; from annual reports for Fortune 500 companies to national and international ad campaigns. I've got work in collections both private and public. I've won a few awards too.
In the 26 years I've been a working professional photographer i've never, ever had a client, or art director question what brands of lights. stands, tripods, light modifiers, etc. I use. Question about cameras (these days: should I get a Canon or a Nikon? Whatever happened to Hasselblad and Kodak? Are Apple's really better than Windows PC's for photography ( don't know as I haven't used Windows in 10 years) ) yes, but the other gear? Never.
All paying clients really care about are two things: "Are you making me or my company look good?"And for my commercial clients , the second consideration is "the final piece an effective piece of marketing or adverting?" Cost sometimes is a third consideration. but even free gets really expensive for a client very fast if you can't fulfill the first two goals.
In other words: Good and great photographic work is all about your wetware, not your hardware. But I suspect you already know that, and if you don't already know that you should learn that lesson fast.
E-Vener wrote:
I originally came here to discuss lighting styles and technique, not to get involved in brand wars, yet somehow I let myself get sucked in. I suspect that is true of many participants and bystanders as well.
Maybe that stage in the evolution of this forum is over.
Over the past 26 years I use or have used virtually every major brand of lighting, light modifier, tripod, tripod head, light meter, and camera for work ranging from simple press release head shots to book covers; for events from small weddings to international conventions; from small local editorial assignments to big time magazines and newspaper assignments; from annual reports for Fortune 500 companies to national and international ad campaigns. I've got work in collections both private and public. I've won a few awards too.
In the 26 years I've been a working professional photographer i've never, ever had a client, or art director question what brands of lights. stands, tripods, light modifiers, etc. I use. Question about cameras (these days: should I get a Canon or a Nikon? Whatever happened to Hasselblad and Kodak? Are Apple's really better than Windows PC's for photography ( don't know as I haven't used Windows in 10 years) ) yes, but the other gear? Never.
All paying clients really care about are two things: "Are you making me or my company look good?"And for my commercial clients , the second consideration is "the final piece an effective piece of marketing or adverting?" Cost sometimes is a third consideration. but even free gets really expensive for a client very fast if you can't fulfill the first two goals.
In other words: Good and great photographic work is all about your wetware, not your hardware. But I suspect you already know that, and if you don't already know that you should learn that lesson fast. ...Show more →
Thank you for trying the second time in 12 hours to bring some degree of sanity to this forum. Your comments are much appreciated and hopefully will be heeded.
Quite honestly ... I think the linked thread is one of the most calmest, least combative exchange PCB has ever participated in here at FM.
I use some PCB products, but I am in no way a PCB fanboy ... in fact I've had my disagreements with him and his behavior here ... but I find it quite surprising that he was banned for that particular thread when there have been so many more that were much more heated and controversial.
Like him or not, when Paul was asked, he always did his best to explain function, design, performance and in-depth technical aspects of lighting products .... that's a resource that could be considered valuable by some ....
But as Ellis says .... In other words: Good and great photographic work is all about your wetware, not your hardware. But I suspect you already know that, and if you don't already know that you should learn that lesson fast.
I do think the exit of Buff has badly damaged this particular forum. No, I'm not going to demand they give me my money back or cancel my subscription. I still like the Nikon, B&W, and a few other forums. They aren't full of baiters and backstabbers, and the other forums will continue to have good info and be useful.
I'm less bugged about Buff ban than I am about the way it was (mis)handled. On all the other forums I've been on, when this sort of thing comes up the moderator will simply post why it was done, and then sign their name to it. I've been a moderator on some occassionally contentious photo forums myself, and I always did exactly that. I was not afraid to make an unpopular decision and then take the grief for it. By not doing that in this case, the anonymous moderator is instead hiding under their desk. That is allowing far more ill will to be generated than Buff ever could. We've had polls here showing that Buff is more popular than not. I do think the moderator should be a stand-up guy and tell us what the reasoning was. If he thought he was correct to do this, then he should have no problem telling us and signing his name. Show some spine and leadership here. Until that is done, I will have ZERO respect for him. Z-E-R-O.
E-Vener wrote:
In other words: Good and great photographic work is all about your wetware, not your hardware. But I suspect you already know that, and if you don't already know that you should learn that lesson fast.
There are plenty of internet forums available to talk lighting; some out there are excellent. What attracted me to the FM forum here was I had the opportunity to talk to someone who actually makes the products I use, or want. The lithium battery deal is a good example. Unlike the Strobist forum or Photo.net etc., here I could tell the manufacturer exactly what my needs are. I felt like I had a part--a small part yes, in the coming about of a product that will benefit me. Here was a CEO that actually listened to what I had to say and would respond. Didn't always give the answer I wanted to hear, but still gave me the chance. OTOH, NIkon doesn't give a rip what I think. They don't even know I exist, and likely don't care either. This is what sets Buff apart. Yes, there are other lights out there that would probably work for me, but you can bet the companies that sell them would never give a regular guy like me a chance to tell them what my needs are, and respond to me. FM had something really unique going, and they blew it. That's what I mean by saying it's lost at least 60% of its usefulness. I can get simple lighting info on half a dozen forums.
The mods should lock threads as soon as they become personal. If someone continues on another thread then lock that thread and ban them for a period of time. After 2nd temp banning, you are out for good.
I'm sick of people saying they only come to FM so they can have PCB answer their questions. Paul has always been available to answer those questions by email or his own forum, just don't expect to have the same latitude for disagreement as you would have here. Is it a good thing for company owners to be available to answer product questions? Sure, as long as they can do so civilly. What about all the great board members that have left over the years due to Paul's behavior, was their input less valuable than his?
Oh and Kent, the moderator of the lighting forum is hardly anonymous. As stated on the topic list, it is Fred Miranda. You may be familiar with him, his name is in the URL.
Can we get back to lighting discussions now and quit bawwing over Paul being gone for the 3rd? time.
Two23 wrote:
There are plenty of internet forums available to talk lighting; some out there are excellent. What attracted me to the FM forum here was I had the opportunity to talk to someone who actually makes the products I use, or want. The lithium battery deal is a good example. Unlike the Strobist forum or Photo.net etc., here I could tell the manufacturer exactly what my needs are. I felt like I had a part--a small part yes, in the coming about of a product that will benefit me. Here was a CEO that actually listened to what I had to say and would respond. Didn't always give the answer I wanted to hear, but still gave me the chance. OTOH, NIkon doesn't give a rip what I think. They don't even know I exist, and likely don't care either. This is what sets Buff apart. Yes, there are other lights out there that would probably work for me, but you can bet the companies that sell them would never give a regular guy like me a chance to tell them what my needs are, and respond to me. FM had something really unique going, and they blew it. That's what I mean by saying it's lost at least 60% of its usefulness. I can get simple lighting info on half a dozen forums.
I though the benefit of having a manufacturer here was to answer technical question and provide technical information. Having someone explain t1 or t5 is very different than engaging in dialogue about what products you want them to develop for you to use or for a manufacturer to comment on other company's products. That's flat out marketing.
Given this is a private forum and Fred reminds all of us that our participation is a priviledge not a right, it is within his purview to determine the behaviors which are acceptable and those which are not. He should be able to do so without offering explanations to any of us.
If someone has been banned from a forum they need to take it up with the appropriate authority and not involve the court of popular opinion or encourage divissiveness.
I'd be curious to know what the catalyst was that prompted FM to ban Paul. Paul has been Paul for sometime and everyone has their own opinion of his presence here. Personally, I felt like he brought something that we rarely get ... an actual voice with a decision maker. For that I'm saddened, but everyone will still be able to get to Paul if they desire via other methods.
FM doesn't owe us an explanation ... but it sure would be nice. From what I could tell Paul was most helpful at explaining technical elements that would differentiate from marketing literature (and absence of complete info) in order for people to understand the significance of the differening attributes. He spoke most technically regarding his products, but the again Canon & Adorama reps speak mostly about their products when here. Paul just happens to give us a tremedouns amount of his time & effort ... unique & rare ... very valuable. That value has now been diminished.
Hi everyone,
I wanted to go over my reasoning for why I would ban a member from the site. It is not a decision that comes lightly. I will only ban someone after receiving numerous complaints. Most times, I will even give a few chances and warnings if possible before resorting to this measure, especially when it is regarding an active, long-time member.
We have a policy here which allows manufactures to participate as long as they don't use the board as a platform to advertise their products. Also, the number one rule of the FM forums, is to be courteous when replying to members on this site. Even if most of your posts are valuable and informative -- if you continually name call, rant, or disrespect FM members, regardless of your reasons, you will be banned.
Banning a member is not an easy decision. If you have any concerns, please PM me. I will lock this thread and hope that we can move on to our photography discussions.
Thank you for your understanding, and support.
Fred
jwboring wrote:
The mods should lock threads as soon as they become personal. If someone continues on another thread then lock that thread and ban them for a period of time. After 2nd temp banning, you are out for good.
Ditto this...personal attacks should never be allowed. The thread nearly always ends up turning into a useless flamefest when that happens...
"OTOH, NIkon doesn't give a rip what I think. They don't even know I exist, and likely don't care either. This is what sets Buff apart."
Au contraire. Nikon and others absolutely know you exist. Almost all new products and product changes come from customer demand over time whether they speak with you personally or not. You don't think they watch the forums, read customer feedback, and take advice from their pro network? They absolutely do. But they are smart not to let the user take control of their manufacturing and marketing process.
