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Archive 2013Bailing on the A7r....
p.2 #1Bailing on the A7r....
What LLoyd is documenting is a banding where alternate rows of pixels are batched together with values that make a kind of zebra stripe effect. I just tested the NEX7 with the Zeiss 135 APO and the pixels appear as expected.
Dec 08, 2013 at 02:07 PM
p.2 #2Bailing on the A7r....
A second image - (as a note - no variations on PP could duplicate the A7r banding) I suspect the orange peel can be exacerbated by sharpening (which I primarily leave out of my workstream)
Edited on Dec 08, 2013 at 02:32 PM · View previous versions
Edited on Dec 08, 2013 at 02:32 PM · View previous versions
Dec 08, 2013 at 02:12 PM
p.2 #3Bailing on the A7r....
A7 does look to be better on 2 of your concerns (shutter noise, and color shift). Might be a better option if you don't need the extra resolution. Personally, I love the shutter sound on the A7. Much better than the NEX cams.
Dec 08, 2013 at 02:14 PM
p.2 #4Bailing on the A7r....
hiepphotog wrote:
What exactly did they promise with the NEX7?
See images above - the A7r isn't doing at full frame what the NEX7 does with APS-c.
The good news - it could be a firmware fix if the processing power wasn't skimped on.
Edited on Dec 08, 2013 at 04:23 PM · View previous versions
What exactly did they promise with the NEX7?
See images above - the A7r isn't doing at full frame what the NEX7 does with APS-c.
The good news - it could be a firmware fix if the processing power wasn't skimped on.
Edited on Dec 08, 2013 at 04:23 PM · View previous versions
Dec 08, 2013 at 02:16 PM
p.2 #5Bailing on the A7r....
The only show-stopper I've found so far on the A7R is blur when using IS on Canon lenses (results here). Most of my shooting is hand-held indoor low-light and I purchased the Canon 35mm f/2 IS specifically for use with the A7R. Sony could fix this by implementing an OMD-type anti-shock shutter delay in firmware.
Dec 08, 2013 at 02:33 PM
p.2 #6Bailing on the A7r....
I haven't found any show-stoppers yet, but I haven't really been looking for them. I figure I shoot what I shoot and look at the results. So far I am very happy.
-Tim
Dec 08, 2013 at 03:31 PM
p.2 #7Bailing on the A7r....
A "problem" at 11x magnification? Really? Well, if that is a show stopper then yes you shouldn't buy the A7r.
Dec 08, 2013 at 03:33 PM
p.2 #8Bailing on the A7r....
bcaslis wrote:
A "problem" at 11x magnification? Really? Well, if that is a show stopper then yes you shouldn't buy the A7r.
The photos above show that it isn't a problem at 11x on the NEX7. The problem shows up at 1x for the A7r.
A "problem" at 11x magnification? Really? Well, if that is a show stopper then yes you shouldn't buy the A7r.
The photos above show that it isn't a problem at 11x on the NEX7. The problem shows up at 1x for the A7r.
Dec 08, 2013 at 04:22 PM
p.2 #9Bailing on the A7r....
tsdevine wrote:
I haven't found any show-stoppers yet, but I haven't really been looking for them. I figure I shoot what I shoot and look at the results. So far I am very happy.
-Tim
yeah, that sounds like a sensible way to evaluate a camera to me. there's a certain point past which product differences really don't matter that much and researching the differences between product A and product B becomes a hobby rather than a useful undertaking. we past that point with image quality in digital cameras a while ago except within a few extreme applications.
I haven't found any show-stoppers yet, but I haven't really been looking for them. I figure I shoot what I shoot and look at the results. So far I am very happy.
-Tim
yeah, that sounds like a sensible way to evaluate a camera to me. there's a certain point past which product differences really don't matter that much and researching the differences between product A and product B becomes a hobby rather than a useful undertaking. we past that point with image quality in digital cameras a while ago except within a few extreme applications.
Dec 08, 2013 at 04:27 PM
p.2 #10Bailing on the A7r....
Well - I haven't seen any problems with red green transitions, but I have only happened to shoot one such scene so far, I believe. Based on my research, I thought the only concerns I'd have with the A7r and M lenses would be finding the right wide angle - I thought I may end up waiting till Sony came out with something shorter than the 35.
Unfortunately, I am very disappointed with even my 50s on the A7r. Today I did a quick comparison between my M8 and the A7r and the 50 Elmar-M, and my Hex 50 Limited. in both case the A7r was able to provide great resolution of a distant landscape in the center, but it quickly turned to mush as you scan toward the edges. This is not color shift, but smeared mushy detail. It makes me realize that the M8 and M9 are really fine tuned for the close registration/close exit pupil of these lenses. I guess that design called for the thin sensor filter and the angled micro lenses. Leica did a good job with this and now we see just how good.
I am afraid that if I keep the A7R, I'll be buying into the Sony lenses and using few of my RF lenses. Or maybe I can buy SLR lenses to use on it. But then it becomes a significantly bigger outfit. And in the end I have yet another system to deal with - and one that has only one lens right now!
Anyway here is that A7r shot with a bit of red and green touching - I don't see anything wrong with it really. Click through to see 100% (sorry not 1100%)
A7r_Nocti (1 of 1)-6 by gdi2003, on Flickr
Unfortunately, I am very disappointed with even my 50s on the A7r. Today I did a quick comparison between my M8 and the A7r and the 50 Elmar-M, and my Hex 50 Limited. in both case the A7r was able to provide great resolution of a distant landscape in the center, but it quickly turned to mush as you scan toward the edges. This is not color shift, but smeared mushy detail. It makes me realize that the M8 and M9 are really fine tuned for the close registration/close exit pupil of these lenses. I guess that design called for the thin sensor filter and the angled micro lenses. Leica did a good job with this and now we see just how good.
I am afraid that if I keep the A7R, I'll be buying into the Sony lenses and using few of my RF lenses. Or maybe I can buy SLR lenses to use on it. But then it becomes a significantly bigger outfit. And in the end I have yet another system to deal with - and one that has only one lens right now!
Anyway here is that A7r shot with a bit of red and green touching - I don't see anything wrong with it really. Click through to see 100% (sorry not 1100%)
A7r_Nocti (1 of 1)-6 by gdi2003, on Flickr
Dec 08, 2013 at 05:33 PM
p.2 #11Bailing on the A7r....
tennclay wrote:
Unfortunately, I am very disappointed with even my 50s on the A7r. Today I did a quick comparison between my M8 and the A7r and the 50 Elmar-M, and my Hex 50 Limited. in both case the A7r was able to provide great resolution of a distant landscape in the center, but it quickly turned to mush as you scan toward the edges. This is not color shift, but smeared mushy detail. It makes me realize that the M8 and M9 are really fine tuned for the close registration/close exit pupil of these lenses. I guess that design called for...Show more →
Are you comparing your M8 and A7r images at the same distance from the center, since the M8 is a crop body? Naturally those lenses wont perform as well at FF edges as they might at the crop edges.
Unfortunately, I am very disappointed with even my 50s on the A7r. Today I did a quick comparison between my M8 and the A7r and the 50 Elmar-M, and my Hex 50 Limited. in both case the A7r was able to provide great resolution of a distant landscape in the center, but it quickly turned to mush as you scan toward the edges. This is not color shift, but smeared mushy detail. It makes me realize that the M8 and M9 are really fine tuned for the close registration/close exit pupil of these lenses. I guess that design called for...Show more →
Are you comparing your M8 and A7r images at the same distance from the center, since the M8 is a crop body? Naturally those lenses wont perform as well at FF edges as they might at the crop edges.
Dec 08, 2013 at 05:37 PM
p.2 #12Bailing on the A7r....
naturephoto1 wrote:
When saving the A7r RAW files to TIFF from LR5.3RC and importing them to PS6 the TIFF files are 206MB in size in 16 Bits/channel.
Rich
Yes, but then you already lost some information in the RAW format which is limited, as I read here, to 30MB.
MaxBerlin wrote
The other issue is around the 8 bit compression the A7r uses across the board - no RAW file is above 37.4mb - the D800e can generate files twice this size on complicated photos. What is being lost in that 30mb ? Or being compressed (pixelated/banded) ?Rich
Yes, but then you already lost some information in the RAW format which is limited, as I read here, to 30MB.
Dec 08, 2013 at 05:47 PM
p.2 #13Bailing on the A7r....
Surely it would be more fun to buy one, play with it a while, and then sell it for a slight loss or return it to the store (depending on your dealers return policy) ?
Heck, you might find that you enjoy shooting it and keep it, despite what you may have read on the internet.
I mean really now...if your only willing to shoot with a camera that EVERYONE on the internet can find no faults in your probably going to be without a camera for a very long time
Heck, you might find that you enjoy shooting it and keep it, despite what you may have read on the internet.
I mean really now...if your only willing to shoot with a camera that EVERYONE on the internet can find no faults in your probably going to be without a camera for a very long time
Dec 08, 2013 at 06:00 PM
p.2 #14Bailing on the A7r....
snapsy wrote:
Are you comparing your M8 and A7r images at the same distance from the center, since the M8 is a crop body? Naturally those lenses wont perform as well at FF edges as they might at the crop edges.
Yes, I should made that clear - the Sony smearing starts well within what would be the M8 frame. I do have to add, also, that my tests today were very quick, handheld, and all those caveats.
tennclay wrote
Unfortunately, I am very disappointed with even my 50s on the A7r. Today I did a quick comparison between my M8 and the A7r and the 50 Elmar-M, and my Hex 50 Limited. in both case the A7r was able to provide great resolution of a distant landscape in the center, but it quickly turned to mush as you scan toward the edges. This is not color shift, but smeared mushy detail. It makes me realize that the M8 and M9 are really fine tuned for the close registration/close exit pupil of these lenses. I guess that design called for the thin sensor filter and the angled micro lenses. Leica did a good job with this and now we see just how good.Yes, I should made that clear - the Sony smearing starts well within what would be the M8 frame. I do have to add, also, that my tests today were very quick, handheld, and all those caveats.
Dec 08, 2013 at 06:01 PM
p.2 #15Bailing on the A7r....
I'd go mental if i spent my time looking at images at 11x.
I believe that If you were to print the resulting image using such magnification then it would output at building size.
To each their own.
I believe that If you were to print the resulting image using such magnification then it would output at building size.
To each their own.
Dec 08, 2013 at 06:06 PM
p.2 #16Bailing on the A7r....
MaxBerlin wrote:
"So you haven't even received the camera, but you're calling it a failure?"
Yes - a mystifying contradiction.
I also decided not to pick fight with Harley gangs, yell "I've got a bomb" on an airplane, or throw a baby off of a high rise without trying it first. (and 1,000s of others)
How does one come to these less than sane conclusions ?
They read, you startling genius. They read as much as they can about the camera and begin to lean from "the greatest camera ever" to "maybe I don't need this set of problems".
If you read too much into Lloyd Chamber's nit-picking, you won't be happy with anything. Name one camera that he has not taken issue with?
"So you haven't even received the camera, but you're calling it a failure?"
Yes - a mystifying contradiction.
I also decided not to pick fight with Harley gangs, yell "I've got a bomb" on an airplane, or throw a baby off of a high rise without trying it first. (and 1,000s of others)
How does one come to these less than sane conclusions ?
They read, you startling genius. They read as much as they can about the camera and begin to lean from "the greatest camera ever" to "maybe I don't need this set of problems".
If you read too much into Lloyd Chamber's nit-picking, you won't be happy with anything. Name one camera that he has not taken issue with?
Dec 08, 2013 at 06:18 PM
p.2 #17Bailing on the A7r....
wiseguy010 wrote:
When saving the A7r RAW files to TIFF from LR5.3RC and importing them to PS6 the TIFF files are 206MB in size in 16 Bits/channel.
RichYes, but then you already lost some information in the RAW format which is limited, as I read here, to 30MB.
I just opened the original RAW file in PS6. The RAW file shows exactly the same image size as the TIFF file that was exported from LR5.3RC. The RAW file opens at 103.4 MB at 300 pixels/inch at 8 Bits/channel. The TIFF file is 206.9 MB at 240 pixels/inch at 16 Bits/channel. So, yes, the TIFF file has been lowered from 300 to 240 pixels/inch. So there is even more information in the RAW file. But, I never print from a file that has gone through LR to PS. I send my TIFF files prepared from LR to my Printer in California. He uses my TIFF files as a guide for printing from my original RAW file. He works the RAW file to get the most out of the file but he only uses my TIFF file to know the direction that I want to go with the image. At this point, all of my my new work is being printed to Metal unless it is requested otherwise.
Rich
naturephoto1 wrote
MaxBerlin wrote
The other issue is around the 8 bit compression the A7r uses across the board - no RAW file is above 37.4mb - the D800e can generate files twice this size on complicated photos. What is being lost in that 30mb ? Or being compressed (pixelated/banded) ?Rich
I just opened the original RAW file in PS6. The RAW file shows exactly the same image size as the TIFF file that was exported from LR5.3RC. The RAW file opens at 103.4 MB at 300 pixels/inch at 8 Bits/channel. The TIFF file is 206.9 MB at 240 pixels/inch at 16 Bits/channel. So, yes, the TIFF file has been lowered from 300 to 240 pixels/inch. So there is even more information in the RAW file. But, I never print from a file that has gone through LR to PS. I send my TIFF files prepared from LR to my Printer in California. He uses my TIFF files as a guide for printing from my original RAW file. He works the RAW file to get the most out of the file but he only uses my TIFF file to know the direction that I want to go with the image. At this point, all of my my new work is being printed to Metal unless it is requested otherwise.
Rich
Dec 08, 2013 at 06:24 PM
p.2 #18Bailing on the A7r....
MaxBerlin wrote:
I appreciate this POV - thanks Michael.
Have you done any side by side testing with the 800 and A7 ? - same lens ?
No side by side testing will be possible for me; while it would be nice, it's not critical for my purposes to examine them at that level. While I can appreciate that shooting the same lens on both cameras would be instructive for some, for me, there is no purpose in doing so. I simply do not want to make use of a 2 pound 35mm lens on the A7r!
I shot the D800 quite extensively over the past 12 months; as I'm getting to know the A7r I feel qualified to judge the two as they relate to my needs and those needs haven't changed; what has changed is that I've come full circle and am willing to tolerate many things but not a lack of portability.
I appreciate this POV - thanks Michael.
Have you done any side by side testing with the 800 and A7 ? - same lens ?
No side by side testing will be possible for me; while it would be nice, it's not critical for my purposes to examine them at that level. While I can appreciate that shooting the same lens on both cameras would be instructive for some, for me, there is no purpose in doing so. I simply do not want to make use of a 2 pound 35mm lens on the A7r!
I shot the D800 quite extensively over the past 12 months; as I'm getting to know the A7r I feel qualified to judge the two as they relate to my needs and those needs haven't changed; what has changed is that I've come full circle and am willing to tolerate many things but not a lack of portability.
Dec 08, 2013 at 07:05 PM
p.2 #19Bailing on the A7r....
Who is Lloyd Chambers other than a guy who thinks I should have to pay to read his opinion on the internet ?
I mean, I know his site and that he does reviews, but what are his credentials as a photographer ? Does he have an extensive background in optic design or electrical engineering ?
Is he a celebrated landscape photographer with multiple galleries in exotic cites, or perhaps an experienced photo journalist with 200+ magazines covers and a Pulitzer to his credit ?
Not knowing anything about his make its a bit hard to judge if one should or shouldn't put much stock into things his says....know what I mean
I mean, I know his site and that he does reviews, but what are his credentials as a photographer ? Does he have an extensive background in optic design or electrical engineering ?
Is he a celebrated landscape photographer with multiple galleries in exotic cites, or perhaps an experienced photo journalist with 200+ magazines covers and a Pulitzer to his credit ?
Not knowing anything about his make its a bit hard to judge if one should or shouldn't put much stock into things his says....know what I mean
Dec 08, 2013 at 07:09 PM
p.2 #20Bailing on the A7r....
tennclay wrote:
Unfortunately, I am very disappointed with even my 50s on the A7r. Today I did a quick comparison between my M8 and the A7r and the 50 Elmar-M, and my Hex 50 Limited. in both case the A7r was able to provide great resolution of a distant landscape in the center, but it quickly turned to mush as you scan toward the edges. This is not color shift, but smeared mushy detail.
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3826/11257422215_c2d60b9cf5.jpg
A7r_Nocti (1 of 1)-6 by gdi2003, on Flickr
This may be the lenses fault - you're at f2 according to your notes. I would like to see 4-5.6 with a better lens. (added later - Elmar doesn't even go down to f2.) what are you shooting ?
Edited on Dec 08, 2013 at 10:39 PM · View previous versions
Unfortunately, I am very disappointed with even my 50s on the A7r. Today I did a quick comparison between my M8 and the A7r and the 50 Elmar-M, and my Hex 50 Limited. in both case the A7r was able to provide great resolution of a distant landscape in the center, but it quickly turned to mush as you scan toward the edges. This is not color shift, but smeared mushy detail.
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3826/11257422215_c2d60b9cf5.jpg
A7r_Nocti (1 of 1)-6 by gdi2003, on Flickr
This may be the lenses fault - you're at f2 according to your notes. I would like to see 4-5.6 with a better lens. (added later - Elmar doesn't even go down to f2.) what are you shooting ?
Edited on Dec 08, 2013 at 10:39 PM · View previous versions
Dec 08, 2013 at 07:35 PM