That's my fear, quite a few 3rd party lenses use the Sony mechanism via the camera, including the Zeiss Batis series. (Which Tamron does as well, so I can't help tying Zeiss Batis to Tamron....but for this conversation, it's meaningless). I'm not aware of any end user upgradable firmware capability for Zeiss Loxia or CV (again...can't help but draw the parallel to the rumor that Cosina makes Loxia lenses for Zeiss.). I would send my lenses in for a firmware update, if that was the only option.
I can see a timing issue if the camera is polling the lens. Maybe it overwhelms the lens and it has trouble responding in the allotted cycle...and the camera reacts poorly to that. Or it may create a jitter scenario, which could explain how it can be really cranky at one point and fairly well behaved at others. If the lens is responsible to report a change, only when a change occurs (not polled by the camera)...then it's harder for me to understand how this is a problem exists only when using newer Sony cameras.
One thing that is interesting, I see the aperture as red I via the EVF when the lens is acting whacko. For example, I don't believe I can release the shutter in timer mode if the lens is acting up.....doesn't matter if I'm in magnified view. Sometimes the aperture shows red and the shutter button works in timer mode, sometimes it doesn't. But it doesn't 100% not work or 100% work. When it's not red it always works.
And sometimes the lens is super cranky and it's hard to find any aperture where you can use magnify. Sometimes the lens is pretty well behaved. Sometimes when it's cranky, if I change from one of my saved modes to another and back again...it gets less cranky. Sometimes turning off the camera and turning it back on makes it seem less cranky. Sometimes it lets me go into magnified view, but as soon as I turn the focus ring it bounces out. Sometimes it bounces out immediately. Sometimes it gives me a second or two, then it bounces out.
I swear I didn't feed it after midnight.
tschopp wrote:
I did some searching for info on the E-mount protocol. There are no analog signal lines, it is all done with serial communication with the lens. Manual chipped lenses regularly report aperture and focus position to the camera. It would appear if the camera has concluded the aperture changed it is because the lens digitally reported the aperture changed. I don't see why this would manifest on the newer cameras unless the newer cameras talk more often with the lens and it catches a change of state that would otherwise go unnoticed, but It would seem the frequency would just be less on older cameras not no problem at all.
I would think Sony could fix this by adding hysteresis to how much aperture change is required to cancel MF magnification. I would think this would be best as a configurable option as it would reduce correct functionality for well behaved lenses.
To me it makes more sense to fix this via a firmware update to the lens. The logic would be a bit tricky as the lens would need to track past aperture position and decide if a significant change actually happened to allow reporting a new value. This would essentially be asking the lens to not actually report the current measured aperture value in many cases. I don't see a big downside to an incorrect reported aperture as it is just for exif info and not used by the camera except to toggle out of MF magnification.
So assuming Zeiss or CV comes up with new firmware, how doe that get loaded into the lens? I assume there are no USB ports on these lenses. Sony can update firmware via the body, but I suspect this is not supported in these lenses. So maybe the lens needs to be disassembled to upgrade, or maybe it can be done via a dock for the lens. Anyone know about firmware upgrades for zeiss or CV?
That's my fear, quite a few 3rd party lenses use the Sony mechanism via the camera, including the Zeiss Batis series. (Which Tamron does as well, so I can't help tying Zeiss Batis to Tamron....but for this conversation, it's meaningless). I'm not aware of any end user upgradable firmware capability for Zeiss Loxia or CV (again...can't help but draw the parallel to the rumor that Cosina makes Loxia lenses for Zeiss.). I would send my lenses in for a firmware update, if that was the only option.
I can see a timing issue if the camera is polling the lens. Maybe it overwhelms the lens and it has trouble responding in the allotted cycle...and the camera reacts poorly to that. Or it may create a jitter scenario, which could explain how it can be really cranky at one point and fairly well behaved at others. If the lens is responsible to report a change, only when a change occurs (not polled by the camera)...then it's harder for me to understand how this is a problem exists only when using newer Sony cameras.
One thing that is interesting, I see the aperture as red I via the EVF when the lens is acting whacko. For example, I don't believe I can release the shutter in timer mode if the lens is acting up.....doesn't matter if I'm in magnified view. Sometimes the aperture shows red and the shutter button works in timer mode, sometimes it doesn't. But it doesn't 100% not work or 100% work. When it's not red it always works.
And sometimes the lens is super cranky and it's hard to find any aperture where you can use magnify. Sometimes the lens is pretty well behaved. Sometimes when it's cranky, if I change from one of my saved modes to another and back again...it gets less cranky. Sometimes turning off the camera and turning it back on makes it seem less cranky. Sometimes it lets me go into magnified view, but as soon as I turn the focus ring it bounces out. Sometimes it bounces out immediately. Sometimes it gives me a second or two, then it bounces out.
I swear I didn't feed it after midnight.
tschopp wrote: Bokehddicted wrote:
I posted the theory below one year ago.
I am still certainly it is a Sony E-mount protocol tolerance problem:
The aperture value is not a discrete value: 1.4, 2.0, 2.8 but rather either an analog signal or digital continuous value in the spec of the protocol.
Anyone see some sense here?
I did some searching for info on the E-mount protocol. There are no analog signal lines, it is all done with serial communication with the lens. Manual chipped lenses regularly report aperture and focus position to the camera. It would appear if the camera has concluded the aperture changed it is because the lens digitally reported the aperture changed. I don't see why this would manifest on the newer cameras unless the newer cameras talk more often with the lens and it catches a change of state that would otherwise go unnoticed, but It would seem the frequency would just be less on older cameras not no problem at all.
I would think Sony could fix this by adding hysteresis to how much aperture change is required to cancel MF magnification. I would think this would be best as a configurable option as it would reduce correct functionality for well behaved lenses.
To me it makes more sense to fix this via a firmware update to the lens. The logic would be a bit tricky as the lens would need to track past aperture position and decide if a significant change actually happened to allow reporting a new value. This would essentially be asking the lens to not actually report the current measured aperture value in many cases. I don't see a big downside to an incorrect reported aperture as it is just for exif info and not used by the camera except to toggle out of MF magnification.
So assuming Zeiss or CV comes up with new firmware, how doe that get loaded into the lens? I assume there are no USB ports on these lenses. Sony can update firmware via the body, but I suspect this is not supported in these lenses. So maybe the lens needs to be disassembled to upgrade, or maybe it can be done via a dock for the lens. Anyone know about firmware upgrades for zeiss or CV?
That's my fear, quite a few 3rd party lenses use the Sony mechanism via the camera, including the Zeiss Batis series. (Which Tamron does as well, so I can't help tying Zeiss Batis to Tamron....but for this conversation, it's meaningless). I'm not aware of any end user upgradable firmware capability for Zeiss Loxia or CV (again...can't help but draw the parallel to the rumor that Cosina makes Loxia lenses for Zeiss.). I would send my lenses in for a firmware update, if that was the only option.
I can see a timing issue if the camera is polling the lens. Maybe it overwhelms the lens and it has trouble responding in the allotted cycle...and the camera reacts poorly to that. Or it may create a jitter scenario, which could explain how it can be really cranky at one point and fairly well behaved at others. If the lens is responsible to report a change, only when a change occurs (not polled by the camera)...then it's harder for me to understand how this is a problem exists only when using newer Sony cameras.
One thing that is interesting, I see the aperture as red I via the EVF when the lens is acting whacko. For example, I don't believe I can release the shutter in timer mode if the lens is acting up.....doesn't matter if I'm in magnified view. Sometimes the aperture shows red and the shutter button works in timer mode, sometimes it doesn't. But it doesn't 100% not work or 100% work. When it's not red it always works.
And sometimes the lens is super cranky and it's hard to find any aperture where you can use magnify. Sometimes the lens is pretty well behaved. Sometimes when it's cranky, if I change from one of my saved modes to another and back again...it gets less cranky. Sometimes turning off the camera and turning it back on makes it seem less cranky. Sometimes it lets me go into magnified view, but as soon as I turn the focus ring it bounces out. Sometimes it bounces out immediately. Sometimes it gives me a second or two, then it bounces out.
I swear I didn't feed it after midnight.
tschopp wrote: Bokehddicted wrote:
I posted the theory below one year ago.
I am still certainly it is a Sony E-mount protocol tolerance problem:
The aperture value is not a discrete value: 1.4, 2.0, 2.8 but rather either an analog signal or digital continuous value in the spec of the protocol.
Anyone see some sense here?
I did some searching for info on the E-mount protocol. There are no analog signal lines, it is all done with serial communication with the lens. Manual chipped lenses regularly report aperture and focus position to the camera. It would appear if the camera has concluded the aperture changed it is because the lens digitally reported the aperture changed. I don't see why this would manifest on the newer cameras unless the newer cameras talk more often with the lens and it catches a change of state that would otherwise go unnoticed, but It would seem the frequency would just be less on older cameras not no problem at all.
I would think Sony could fix this by adding hysteresis to how much aperture change is required to cancel MF magnification. I would think this would be best as a configurable option as it would reduce correct functionality for well behaved lenses.
To me it makes more sense to fix this via a firmware update to the lens. The logic would be a bit tricky as the lens would need to track past aperture position and decide if a significant change actually happened to allow reporting a new value. This would essentially be asking the lens to not actually report the current measured aperture value in many cases. I don't see a big downside to an incorrect reported aperture as it is just for exif info and not used by the camera except to toggle out of MF magnification.
So assuming Zeiss or CV comes up with new firmware, how doe that get loaded into the lens? I assume there are no USB ports on these lenses. Sony can update firmware via the body, but I suspect this is not supported in these lenses. So maybe the lens needs to be disassembled to upgrade, or maybe it can be done via a dock for the lens. Anyone know about firmware upgrades for zeiss or CV?
That's my fear, quite a few 3rd party lenses use the Sony mechanism via the camera, including the Zeiss Batis series. (Which Tamron does as well, so I can't help tying Zeiss Batis to Tamron....but for this conversation, it's meaningless). I'm not aware of any end user upgradable firmware capability for Zeiss Loxia or CV (again...can't help but draw the parallel to the rumor that Cosina makes Loxia lenses for Zeiss.). I would send my lenses in for a firmware update, if that was the only option.
I can see a timing issue if the camera is polling the lens. Maybe it overwhelms the lens and it has trouble responding in the allotted cycle...and the camera reacts poorly to that. Or it may create a jitter scenario, which could explain how it can be really cranky at one point and fairly well behaved at others. If the lens is responsible to report a change, only when a change occurs (not polled by the camera)...then it's harder for me to understand how this is a problem exists only when using newer Sony cameras.
One thing that is interesting, I see the aperture as red I via the EVF when the lens is acting whacko. For example, I don't believe I can release the shutter in timer mode if the lens is acting up.....doesn't matter when I'm in magnified view. Sometimes the aperture shows red and the shutter button works in timer mode, sometimes it doesn't. But it doesn't 100% not work or 100% work. When it's not red it always works.
And sometimes the lens is super cranky and it's hard to find any aperture where you can use magnify. Sometimes the lens is pretty well behaved. Sometimes when it's cranky, if I change from one of my saved modes to another and back again...it gets less cranky. Sometimes turning off the camera and turning it back on makes it seem less cranky. Sometimes it lets me go into magnified view, but as soon as I turn the focus ring it bounces out. Sometimes it bounces out immediately. Sometimes it gives me a second or two, then it bounces out.
I swear I didn't feed it after midnight.
tschopp wrote: Bokehddicted wrote:
I posted the theory below one year ago.
I am still certainly it is a Sony E-mount protocol tolerance problem:
The aperture value is not a discrete value: 1.4, 2.0, 2.8 but rather either an analog signal or digital continuous value in the spec of the protocol.
Anyone see some sense here?
I did some searching for info on the E-mount protocol. There are no analog signal lines, it is all done with serial communication with the lens. Manual chipped lenses regularly report aperture and focus position to the camera. It would appear if the camera has concluded the aperture changed it is because the lens digitally reported the aperture changed. I don't see why this would manifest on the newer cameras unless the newer cameras talk more often with the lens and it catches a change of state that would otherwise go unnoticed, but It would seem the frequency would just be less on older cameras not no problem at all.
I would think Sony could fix this by adding hysteresis to how much aperture change is required to cancel MF magnification. I would think this would be best as a configurable option as it would reduce correct functionality for well behaved lenses.
To me it makes more sense to fix this via a firmware update to the lens. The logic would be a bit tricky as the lens would need to track past aperture position and decide if a significant change actually happened to allow reporting a new value. This would essentially be asking the lens to not actually report the current measured aperture value in many cases. I don't see a big downside to an incorrect reported aperture as it is just for exif info and not used by the camera except to toggle out of MF magnification.
So assuming Zeiss or CV comes up with new firmware, how doe that get loaded into the lens? I assume there are no USB ports on these lenses. Sony can update firmware via the body, but I suspect this is not supported in these lenses. So maybe the lens needs to be disassembled to upgrade, or maybe it can be done via a dock for the lens. Anyone know about firmware upgrades for zeiss or CV?
That's my fear, quite a few 3rd party lenses use the Sony mechanism via the camera, including the Zeiss Batis series. (Which Tamron does as well, so I can't help tying Zeiss Batis to Tamron....but for this conversation, it's meaningless). I'm not aware of any end user upgradable firmware capability for Zeiss Loxia or CV (again...can't help but draw the parallel to the rumor that Cosina makes Loxia lenses for Zeiss.)
I can see a timing issue if the camera is polling the lens. Maybe it overwhelms the lens and it has trouble responding in the allotted cycle...and the camera reacts poorly to that. Or it may create a jitter scenario, which could explain how it can be really cranky at one point and fairly well behaved at others. If the lens is responsible to report a change, only when a change occurs (not polled by the camera)...then it's harder for me to understand how this is a problem exists only when using newer Sony cameras.
One thing that is interesting, I see the aperture as red I via the EVF when the lens is acting whacko. For example, I don't believe I can release the shutter in timer mode if the lens is acting up.....doesn't matter when I'm in magnified view. Sometimes the aperture shows red and the shutter button works in timer mode, sometimes it doesn't. But it doesn't 100% not work or 100% work. When it's not red it always works.
And sometimes the lens is super cranky and it's hard to find any aperture where you can use magnify. Sometimes the lens is pretty well behaved. Sometimes when it's cranky, if I change from one of my saved modes to another and back again...it gets less cranky. Sometimes turning off the camera and turning it back on makes it seem less cranky. Sometimes it lets me go into magnified view, but as soon as I turn the focus ring it bounces out. Sometimes it bounces out immediately. Sometimes it gives me a second or two, then it bounces out.
I swear I didn't feed it after midnight.
tschopp wrote: Bokehddicted wrote:
I posted the theory below one year ago.
I am still certainly it is a Sony E-mount protocol tolerance problem:
The aperture value is not a discrete value: 1.4, 2.0, 2.8 but rather either an analog signal or digital continuous value in the spec of the protocol.
Anyone see some sense here?
I did some searching for info on the E-mount protocol. There are no analog signal lines, it is all done with serial communication with the lens. Manual chipped lenses regularly report aperture and focus position to the camera. It would appear if the camera has concluded the aperture changed it is because the lens digitally reported the aperture changed. I don't see why this would manifest on the newer cameras unless the newer cameras talk more often with the lens and it catches a change of state that would otherwise go unnoticed, but It would seem the frequency would just be less on older cameras not no problem at all.
I would think Sony could fix this by adding hysteresis to how much aperture change is required to cancel MF magnification. I would think this would be best as a configurable option as it would reduce correct functionality for well behaved lenses.
To me it makes more sense to fix this via a firmware update to the lens. The logic would be a bit tricky as the lens would need to track past aperture position and decide if a significant change actually happened to allow reporting a new value. This would essentially be asking the lens to not actually report the current measured aperture value in many cases. I don't see a big downside to an incorrect reported aperture as it is just for exif info and not used by the camera except to toggle out of MF magnification.
So assuming Zeiss or CV comes up with new firmware, how doe that get loaded into the lens? I assume there are no USB ports on these lenses. Sony can update firmware via the body, but I suspect this is not supported in these lenses. So maybe the lens needs to be disassembled to upgrade, or maybe it can be done via a dock for the lens. Anyone know about firmware upgrades for zeiss or CV?
That's my fear, quite a few 3rd party lenses use the Sony mechanism via the camera, including the Zeiss Batis series. (Which Tamron does as well, so I can't help tying Zeiss Batis to Tamron....but for this conversation, it's meaningless). I'm not aware of any end user upgradable firmware capability for Zeiss Loxia or CV (again...can't help but draw the parallel to the rumor that Cosina makes Loxia lenses for Zeiss.)
I can see a timing issue if the camera is polling the lens. Maybe it overwhelms the lens and it has trouble responding in the allotted cycle...and the camera reacts poorly to that. Or it may create a jitter scenario, which could explain how it can be really cranky at one point and fairly well behaved at others. If the lens is responsible to report a change, only when a change occurs (not polled by the camera)...then it's harder for me to understand how this is a problem exists only when using newer Sony cameras.
One thing that is interesting, I see the aperture as red I via the EVF when the lens is acting whacko. For example, I don't believe I can release the shutter in timer mode if the lens is acting up.....doesn't matter when I'm in magnified view. Sometimes the aperture shows red and the shutter button works in timer mode, sometimes it doesn't. But it doesn't 100% not work or 100% work. When it's not red it always works.
And sometimes the lens is super cranky and it's hard to find any aperture where you can use magnify. Sometimes the lens is pretty well behaved. Sometimes when it's cranky, if I change from one of my saved modes to another and back again...it gets less cranky. Sometimes turning off the camera and turning it back on makes it seem less cranky. Sometimes it lets me go into magnified view, but as soon as I turn the focus ring it bounces out. Sometimes it bounces out immediately. Sometimes it gives me a second or two, then it bounces out.
I swear I didn't feed it after midnight.
tschopp wrote: Bokehddicted wrote:
I posted the theory below one year ago.
I am still certainly it is a Sony E-mount protocol tolerance problem:
The aperture value is not a discrete value: 1.4, 2.0, 2.8 but rather either an analog signal or digital continuous value in the spec of the protocol.
Anyone see some sense here?
I did some searching for info on the E-mount protocol. There are no analog signal lines, it is all done with serial communication with the lens. Manual chipped lenses regularly report aperture and focus position to the camera. It would appear if the camera has concluded the aperture changed it is because the lens digitally reported the aperture changed. I don't see why this would manifest on the newer cameras unless the newer cameras talk more often with the lens and it catches a change of state that would otherwise go unnoticed, but It would seem the frequency would just be less on older cameras not no problem at all.
I would think Sony could fix this by adding hysteresis to how much aperture change is required to cancel MF magnification. I would think this would be best as a configurable option as it would reduce correct functionality for well behaved lenses.
To me it makes more sense to fix this via a firmware update to the lens. The logic would be a bit tricky as the lens would need to track past aperture position and decide if a significant change actually happened to allow reporting a new value. This would essentially be asking the lens to not actually report the current measured aperture value in many cases. I don't see a big downside to an incorrect reported aperture as it is just for exif info and not used by the camera except to toggle out of MF magnification.
So assuming Zeiss or CV comes up with new firmware, how doe that get loaded into the lens? I assume there are no USB ports on these lenses. Sony can update firmware via the body, but I suspect this is not supported in these lenses. So maybe the lens needs to be disassembled to upgrade, or maybe it can be done via a dock for the lens. Anyone know about firmware upgrades for zeiss or CV?
That's my fear, quite a few 3rd party lenses use the Sony mechanism via the camera, including the Zeiss Batis series. (Which Tamron does as well, so I can't help tying Zeiss Batis to Tamron....but for this conversation, it's meaningless). I'm not aware of any end user upgradable firmware capability for Zeiss Loxia or CV (again...can't help but draw the parallel to the rumor that Cosina makes Loxia lenses for Zeiss.)
I can see a timing issue if the camera is polling the lens. Maybe it overwhelms the lens and it has trouble responding in the allotted cycle...and the camera reacts poorly to that. Or it may create a jitter scenario, which could explain how it can be really cranky at one point and fairly well behaved at others. If the lens is responsible to report a change, only when a change occurs (not polled by the camera)...then it's harder for me to understand how this is a problem exists only when using newer Sony cameras.
One thing that is interesting, I see the aperture as red I via the EVF when the lens is acting whacko. For example, I don't believe I can release the shutter in timer mode if the lens is acting up.....doesn't matter when I'm in magnified view. Sometimes the aperture shows red and the shutter button works in timer mode, sometimes it doesn't. But it doesn't 100% not work or 100% work. When it's not red it always works.
And sometimes the lens is super cranky and it's hard to find any aperture where you can use magnify. Sometimes the lens is pretty well behaved. Sometimes when it's cranky, if I change from one of my saved modes to another and back again...it gets less cranky. Sometimes turning off the camera and turning it back on makes it seem less cranky. Sometimes it lets me go into magnified view, but as soon as I turn the focus ring it bounces out. Sometimes it bounces out immediately. Sometimes it gives me a second or two, then it bounces out.
I swear I didn't feed it after midnight.
tschopp wrote: Bokehddicted wrote:
I posted the theory below one year ago.
I am still certainly it is a Sony E-mount protocol tolerance problem:
The aperture value is not a discrete value: 1.4, 2.0, 2.8 but rather either an analog signal or digital continuous value in the spec of the protocol.
Anyone see some sense here?
I did some searching for info on the E-mount protocol. There are no analog signal lines, it is all done with serial communication with the lens. Manual chipped lenses regularly report aperture and focus position to the camera. It would appear if the camera has concluded the aperture changed it is because the lens digitally reported the aperture changed. I don't see why this would manifest on the newer cameras unless the newer cameras talk more often with the lens and it catches a change of state that would otherwise go unnoticed, but It would seem the frequency would just be less on older cameras not no problem at all.
I would think Sony could fix this by adding hysteresis to how much aperture change is required to cancel MF magnification. I would think this would be best as a configurable option as it would reduce correct functionality for well behaved lenses.
To me it makes more sense to fix this via a firmware update to the lens. The logic would be a bit tricky as the lens would need to track past aperture position and decide if a significant change actually happened to allow reporting a new value. This would essentially be asking the lens to not actually report the current measured aperture value in many cases. I don't see a big downside to an incorrect reported aperture as it is just for exif info and not used by the camera except to toggle out of MF magnification.
So assuming Zeiss or CV comes up with new firmware, how doe that get loaded into the lens? I assume there are no USB ports on these lenses. Sony can update firmware via the body, but I suspect this is not supported in these lenses. So maybe the lens needs to be disassembled to upgrade, or maybe it can be done via a dock for the lens. Anyone know about firmware upgrades for zeiss or CV?
Aug 23, 2023 at 04:33 PM
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