naturephoto1
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 Re: A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all! | |
Steve Spencer wrote:
rscheffler wrote:
naturephoto1 wrote:
I would appreciate any suggestions and comments as I am considering purchasing one of the following 28mm M mount lenses for a small and light package of 4 lenses; and no I do not expect that they will equal the performance of the R Elmarit:
1) Minolta CLE MC 28mm f2.8 M-Rokkor without the dreaded white spots. Nico has tested the lens on his modified A7r with very very good results. This would be purchased used frequently between about $425 and $500. It has the lightest weight of about 4 3/4 oz and filter size of 40.5mm.
2) Voigtlander Ultron 28mm f/2 28/2 Leica M Mount lens which could be purchased used (probably) or new. New price is $630 and the lens weighs 8.6 oz and has a filter size of 46mm.
3) Leica 28mm f/2.8 Elmarit-M III which would be purchased used for considerably more than either of the other 2 options. The lens weighs 8.82 oz and has a filter size of 49mm.
4) Leica 28mm f/2.8 Elmarit-M IV which like the version III would be purchased used and is the most expensive option of the 4 lenses. The lens weighs 9.2 oz and has a filter size of 46mm.
I guess it depends somewhat on your expectations and intended uses for this focal length.
Charlie has the Elmarit III and his Flickr is a source for images at full M9 resolution. Perhaps he\'s also shot it on his modified a7? My impression of the lens, based on his images, is that it may not live up to demanding technical expectations for across-frame sharpness. It looks great centrally, but edges just never seem to fully catch up. From what I\'ve read, the IV is supposed to be better, but not sure how it compares against the current ASPH.
I\'ve briefly shot the CV Ultron 28/2 in an informal comparison against the ZM28 on the M9. TBH, I didn\'t like the CV, though it seems to have some following over at RFF. Perhaps it\'s more a film-shooter thing? IMO it\'s a non-technical lens. The ZM had much better contrast and sharpness. Like the III, the Ultron seemed handicapped by relatively weak peripheral performance, needing to be well stopped down, and even then, not amazing. Focus shift is also present, though may not be a big concern on a mirrorless camera. The ZM is centrally very sharp but also doesn\'t have a flat plane of focus, needing some stopping down to bring up the sides, but not to the degree of the CV.
Even the Cron is not a perfect lens, with some field curvature that requires stopping down past around f/4 for good edges, while vignetting remains somewhat present even well stopped down.
Rich,
I think the big question is whether you want a lens that does equal your R 28 elmarit II. I think it is worth considering the M 28 elmarit ASPH. If you look at the MTFs it has a very similar profile to the R 28 elmarit II. Both have a bit of zone B dip, but the corners are strong from f/5.6 at least. The M lens has virtually no distortion and slightly higher MTFs (although even with the thinner cover glass it might not live up to these MTFs). Still from reports on this thread it does well on the modified A7r and it is truly tiny--only 180 grams plus the adapter and less than 40mm long with the adapter, and only 52mm in diameter. It \"only\" runs about $1,500 too, which really isn\'t bad considering its performance on the the modified camera might well approach the R 28 elmarit II (I\'m not saying it does, but it would be worth investigating if it does, because on film it actually should actually be just a bit better).
The other lens to certainly consider is the M 28 cron ASPH. Its MTFs are clearly different from the R 28 elmarit II, but I would prefer them. What you get with the cron is virtually no zone B dip but a gradual fall off to not too bad of corners, versus the R elmarit II in which you have a bit of zone B dip but the corners and edges recover nicely. I prefer the crons weaknesses, but it is certainly reasonable to have the reverse preference. It is running about $2,200 used, so it is not a minor investment, but as a still quite small lens it would complete your package nicely.
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charles.K wrote:
Hi Rich,
I have had the ZM 25/2.8, 28 Elmarit Asph, 28 Cron Asph, CV 28 Ultron, and R 28 Elmarit vII all with the M9, M240 and the R 28 Elmarit II with the A7r. My perspective was to have a documentary street lens with personality, and for landscapes I would go wider to the 21 SEM/WATE or 24 Lux Asph.
These lenses must gel with A7r and eventually having a thin filter modification to work at their best. Personally I never liked the CV 28 Ultron. The R 28 Elmarit II is very nice, but large and heavy IMO. There are considerable test results with Lloyd regarding the 28 Elmarit M mount with the A7rM.
My pick for landscape would be the ZM 25/2.8 with the A7rM. It is light and small with a MFD of 0.5m and less with the VM-E adapter makes for a great lens IMO.
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uhoh7 wrote:
TY to hiepphotog and Tariq for input on improving my focusing 
charles.K wrote:
Another observation that has surprised me is with the Loxia 35 with strong back-lighting @ f/2 there is considerable CA with the A7II, and is negligible at f/2.8. However from some more testing this morning (sorry no direct comparisons.. yet) that with the A7r Modified there is virtually no CA with the Loxia at f/2.0. Personally for myself using the lens for portraits at f/2.0 is great, as there is no correction for CA needed in high key/backlit shots. Yet with the A7II there is considerable CA at f/2 that needs to be corrected in post.
I would be interested in others observations. I do feel that the thin filter modification will also behave differently on the A7 and A7r.
I would also be curious if anyone has tried the mod on the A7s? At the moment, the A7s is still my favourite to go camera so I\'m waiting for some feedback
I have just added a photo with very strong backing, shot of glass candles no PP or corrections with +3 exp compensation which would show considerable CA at f/2 with A7II. The A7r Mod seems to keep the CA very well in check.
It\'s interesting you mention this Charles, as the CA on my nFD 24/2 has also been greatly reduced
@Rich re the 28s:
I suggest you also consider CV 28/1.9 which has quite a few fans over the f/2 version. Note the 28 cron price is down to as low as 2400. I would forget the elmarit v3, because I know you love landscape (i confirm Ron\'s remarks here). The V4 is totally different and could be good, a far better prospect than the asph (it\'s too small for this stack I think). I suspect many of the SLR 28s will get much better with the MOD, so a cheap FD or Nikon 28/2.8 could tide you over if needed till you sort out a compact 28. The M-Rokkor to me looks only OK, and I think would be more challenged by distant landscape details. The Hex 28 might be good. The ZM28 is also an open question. In short the best 28 for the A7.mod is still an open question. It could be the 28 cron, but I need to shoot mine more to really be sure on that. But there might also be some great new performance from the smaller SLR lenses, as my own nFD 24/2\'s resurrection leads me to suspect. Your current Elmarit R should be better yet also
But I would beware expecting M240 like performance from the very small lenses like the asph 28. The M9 is still well ahead of the A7.mod on most wide edges: or at least that is my impression so far.
Also the FE28/2 could be a real sleeper and perform great stopped down on the un-moddified A7 rigs.
@Charles the CV 21/1.8 shot is very impressive; never seen it look so nice
Besides focus issues the A7 is also prone to shutter shake much more than M9  So for awhile I was wondering about the CV 35/1.4 (pre-asph 35 lux knock off, as Derek notes)
Well I got this one right, around f/8 could even be 5.6:
DSC02987 by unoh7, on Flickr
This is actually superior in the corners to my 40/2 shots.
If you look at the flickr mag, center frame just over the haze in the distant valley is another ridge line. That\'s 80 miles away.
I have to say, for this lens in this situation, the M9 might be no better, except it\'s pristine CCD look and feel (to me). I remember some zone issues in tests with the M9 on this lens, which led me to find a biogon. They are hard to spot here.
Derek, if the pre-asph 35 lux can do better landscape detail, I\'d like to see the shot
I wonder if there is a LR lens preset which would fix the nokton\'s distortion in a click?
Hi Guys,
Thank you for your input. I believe that the R 28mm f2.8 Elmarit may well be the best DSLR lens made in this focal length for any filter stack option now and into the future. When I posed this question I was initially considering keeping my R 28mm f2.8 Elmarit V2 as it is a universal lens that I could use on any filter stack as things now stand and would be into the foreseeable future. I doubt that Sony will change the stack on the upcoming A7rII, A9 or anything into the future (though anything is possilble). I suspect that after the introduction of the A7rII that Sony may only offer IBIS based sensors on future cameras. I fear that unless someone like Kolari would decide to tackle an IBIS based sensor to remove the filter stack and replace it with the thin stack that the A7r and the A7rII may be the end of the line for this kind of modification.
If I followed Steve\'s suggestion regarding the 2 current 28mm Leica M lenses they are more money than I initially intended to spend and if I went that way then I may consider selling my R 28mm V2. But, if the A7r and A7rII are the end of the line for such modification then in the future I would either have to use those lenses either on those cameras or a Leica M camera. I am quite concerned however that Leica is going to fall further and furhter behind with their sensor technology compared to a company like Sony (unless they come an agreement with Sony or someone like them).
Though as Charles has commented about the smaller Leica M 21mm, Leica M 24mm, and even the Zeiss ZM 25mm f2.8 as being great alternatives for specific kinds of shooting again I am somewhat concerned about their future on Sony cameras after the A7r and A7rII cameras. I have the WATE and as in the case of my Leica R 28mm f2.8 Elmarit V2, I believe that it will continue to perform well on future Sony cameras even after the A7rII is released. The WATE also provides me the option of sweeping landscapes when wanted. And I would suspect that the WATE on the modified A7r may well outperform the new FE 16mm-35mm zoom on the stock A7r. and quite likely on the modified A7r as well.
The jury is still out on all of the options whether it be the Leica M 28mm f2.8 V4, the Zeiss ZM 28mm f2.8, the Zeiss 25mm f2.8, the CV 28mm f1.9, etc. But, with all of these and the other lenses (not including the R 28mm f2.8 Elmarit V2 and the WATE) I have real concerns regarding their usage beyond the A7r and A7rII with the modified sensor stacks. That is why I am leaning toward perhaps the 4 lenses that I have mentioned now in this paragraph and they are not so expensive to worry so much about their loss of usage beyond this and the next generation of the Sony cameras.
Rich
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