Why should camera gear become cheaper with any generation, adding new features?
R.
maybe it should, maybe it shouldn\'t, it\'s complicated, but for the record it\'s not a crazy concept either:
10D - $1499 - early 2003
20D - $1499 - late 2004
30D - $1399 - late 2006
40D - $1299 - late 2007
50D - $1299 - late 2008
60D - $1099 - late 2010 (granted this one was a mix of step forward and step backward in features)
5D - $3299 - late 2005
5D2 - $2699 - late 2008
5D3 - $3499 - early 2012
D700 - $2999 - late 2008
D800 - $2999 - early 2012
game:
which entry doesn\'t belong?
easy game, no?
All that said i\'d rather more $ and 1DX AF than less and 7D AF, but since it seems like not much on the stills is upgraded other than the AF after 3.5+ years you wouldn\'t think it would go up $800 just from that alone, well OK the fps went up to but it also went up in the xxD range and now maybe FF box costs more so then you don\'t decrease the price any as on the xxD and so on and the dollar has collapsed more (but prior to the 60D and D800 entries as well) so maybe it doesn\'t go lower, that would not be expected at all, and maybe it doesn\'t even stay at $2699 either, but it really does seem surprising for it to have risen above $2999, especially $500 above.
Plus Sony/Nikon invested in a modern Exmor fab and have spent to get increased dynamic range, while according to Pixel, Canon turned down tech as far back as the 5D2 design era that could have given them Exmor-like dynamic range. So if Canon is milking the old fab and tech and Sony/Nikon are spending to update....
Of course it remains to be seen, perhaps they really did finally improve dynamic range a bunch and spend on new sensor tech, BUT if so why no mention of it at low ISO in any press release? If so then why do they claim the 1DX is nearly a stop better than the 5D3?!? What room does that leave the 5D3 to improve with over the 5D2? Virtually none. So we might get maybe 1/3-1/2 stops better at most? Canon DR and SNR may have improved less than half a stop in the last half decade. The D800 sensor could end up having 50% more MP and yet being within 1/3-1/2 stop in SNR and ahead by 2 stops in DR. I hope not, but it\'s not a completely unlikely scenario in any fashion.
Now I really hope that is not the case. I hope the stuff about 1DX being a full stop better is just marketing BS trying to make 1DX buyers feel better and I hope the lack of mention of low ISO DR improvements is just some marketing guy not even realizing that mattered and thinking that everything is about high ISO. And I hope we do get at least a 1.5 stop jump in low ISO DR, if not 2 stops. I hope the banding mess and clumping noise from that is gone at low and high ISO. I hope they did do wonders and get a full stop noise improvement over the 5D2. Then we would be getting improve image quality too, even if not a MP increase. But these things are very far from certain and the talk from Canon isn\'t entirely encouraging. The early samples make it seem like high iso banding might be less but it\'s hard to say.
D800 also includes intervalometer and pop-up flash (maybe $250 value in Canon timer and mini-third party flash terms terms) and a better metering system with a fancier metering chip and logic circuit. Although going from an 8fps to 6fps mirror box maybe saves a little money, perhaps?
The D800 will almost unquestionably be able to deliver better image quality to the ISO100 tripod landscape/studio shooters, SNR means little at ISO100 with any modern camera, it will most likely has as good or better maybe even much better DR and it has 50% more MP. If the DR is equal for the two then the only difference would be if you care about 50% more MP or not though. For mid to high ISO usages it remains to be seen which will deliver better image quality. The 1DX being one stop better than the 5D3 makes it hard to see the 5D3 winning by enough to matter here but Canon has said someone logically incompatible things it\'s hard to know what to make so who knows. It is not impossible for the 5D3 to end up delivering a full stop better image quality for high ISO shooting though.
Hopefully the AF will totally rock and zoom past Nikon AF. Hopefully they somehow did noticeably improve the sensor so we get the same D800 DR plus 2/3 - 1 stop better SNR. Hopefully the video mode will be much cleaner from artifacts than the Nikon. We do get 6fps vs 5fps without paying for a grip (although for those who want the grip for sports shooting anyway this suddenly becomes moot point). Maybe the 5D3 would be worth $500 more to many then (unless the MP count was your key interest, that certainly would be nice for landscapes and wildlife, etc.). I have some doubts about all that though, but maybe Canon knows the answers and the answers are yes.
Why should camera gear become cheaper with any generation, adding new features?
R.
maybe it should, maybe it shouldn\'t, it\'s complicated, but for the record it\'s not a crazy concept either:
10D - $1499 - early 2003
20D - $1499 - late 2004
30D - $1399 - late 2006
40D - $1299 - late 2007
50D - $1299 - late 2008
60D - $1099 - late 2010 (granted this one was a mix of step forward and step backward in features)
5D - $3299 - late 2005
5D2 - $2699 - late 2008
5D3 - $3499 - early 2012
D700 - $2999 - late 2008
D800 - $2999 - early 2012
game:
which entry doesn\'t belong?
easy game, no?
All that said i\'d rather more $ and 1DX AF than less and 7D AF, but since it seems like not much on the stills is upgraded other than the AF after 3.5+ years you wouldn\'t think it would go up $800 just from that alone, well OK the fps went up to but it also went up in the xxD range and now maybe FF box costs more so then you don\'t decrease the price any as on the xxD and so on and the dollar has collapsed more (but prior to the 60D and D800 entries as well) so maybe it doesn\'t go lower, that would not be expected at all, and maybe it doesn\'t even stay at $2699 either, but it really does seem surprising for it to have risen above $2999, especially $500 above.
Plus Sony/Nikon invested in a modern Exmor fab and have spent to get increased dynamic range, while according to Pixel, Canon turned down tech as far back as the 5D2 design era that could have given them Exmor-like dynamic range. So if Canon is milking the old fab and tech and Sony/Nikon are spending to update....
Of course it remains to be seen, perhaps they really did finally improve dynamic range a bunch and spend on new sensor tech, BUT if so why no mention of it at low ISO in any press release? If so then why do they claim the 1DX is nearly a stop better than the 5D3?!? What room does that leave the 5D3 to improve with over the 5D2? Virtually none. So we might get maybe 1/3-1/2 stops better at most? Canon DR and SNR may have improved less than half a stop in the last half decade. The D800 sensor could end up having 50% more MP and yet being within 1/3-1/2 stop in SNR and ahead by 2 stops in DR. I hope not, but it\'s not a completely unlikely scenario in any fashion.
Now I really hope that is not the case. I hope the stuff about 1DX being a full stop better is just marketing BS trying to make 1DX buyers feel better and I hope the lack of mention of low ISO DR improvements is just some marketing guy not even realizing that mattered and thinking that everything is about high ISO. And I hope we do get at least a 1.5 stop jump in low ISO DR, if not 2 stops. I hope the banding mess and clumping noise from that is gone at low and high ISO. I hope they did do wonders and get a full stop noise improvement over the 5D2. Then we would be getting improve image quality too, even if not a MP increase. But these things are very far from certain and the talk from Canon isn\'t entirely encouraging. The early samples make it seem like high iso banding might be less but it\'s hard to say.
D800 also includes intervalometer and pop-up flash (maybe $250 value in Canon timer and mini-third party flash terms terms) and a better metering system with a fancier metering chip and logic circuit. Although going from an 8fps to 6fps mirror box maybe saves a little money, perhaps?
The D800 will almost unquestionably be able to deliver better image quality to the ISO100 tripod landscape/studio shooters, SNR means little at ISO100 with any modern camera, it will most likely has as good or better maybe even much better DR and it has 50% more MP. If the DR is equal for the two then the only difference would be if you care about 50% more MP or not though. For mid to high ISO usages it remains to be seen which will deliver better image quality. The 1DX being one stop better than the 5D3 makes it hard to see the 5D3 winning by enough to matter here but Canon has said someone logically incompatible things it\'s hard to know what to make so who knows. It is not impossible for the 5D3 to end up delivering a full stop better image quality for high ISO shooting though.
Hopefully the AF will totally rock and zoom past Nikon AF. Hopefully they somehow did noticeably improve the sensor so we get the same D800 DR plus 2/3 - 1 stop better SNR. Hopefully the video mode will be much cleaner from artifacts than the Nikon. We do get 6fps vs 5fps without paying for a grip (although for those who want the grip for sports shooting anyway this suddenly becomes moot point). Maybe it can be worth $500 more then (unless the MP count was your key interest, that certainly would be nice for landscapes and wildlife). I have some doubts about all that though.
Why should camera gear become cheaper with any generation, adding new features?
R.
maybe it should, maybe it shouldn\'t, it\'s complicated, but for the record it\'s not a crazy concept either:
10D - $1499 - early 2003
20D - $1499 - late 2004
30D - $1399 - late 2006
40D - $1299 - late 2007
50D - $1299 - late 2008
60D - $1099 - late 2010 (granted this one was a mix of step forward and step backward in features)
5D - $3299 - late 2005
5D2 - $2699 - late 2008
5D3 - $3499 - early 2012
D700 - $2999 - late 2008
D800 - $2999 - early 2012
game:
which entry doesn\'t belong?
easy game, no?
All that said i\'d rather more $ and 1DX AF than less and 7D AF, but since it seems like not much on the stills is upgraded other than the AF after 3.5+ years you wouldn\'t think it would go up $800 just from that alone, well OK the fps went up to but it also went up in the xxD range and now maybe FF box costs more so then you don\'t decrease the price any as on the xxD and so on and the dollar has collapsed more (but prior to the 60D and D800 entries as well) so maybe it doesn\'t go lower, that would not be expected at all, and maybe it doesn\'t even stay at $2699 either, but it really does seem surprising for it to have risen above $2999, especially $500 above.
Plus Sony/Nikon invested in a modern Exmor fab and have spent to get increased dynamic range, while according to Pixel, Canon turned down tech as far back as the 5D2 design era that could have given them Exmor-like dynamic range. So if Canon is milking the old fab and tech and Sony/Nikon are spending to update....
Of course it remains to be seen, perhaps they really did finally improve dynamic range a bunch and spend on new sensor tech, BUT if so why no mention of it at low ISO in any press release? If so then why do they claim the 1DX is nearly a stop better than the 5D3?!? What room does that leave the 5D3 to improve with over the 5D2? Virtually none. So we might get maybe 1/3-1/2 stops better at most? Canon DR and SNR may have improved less than half a stop in the last half decade. The D800 sensor could end up having 50% more MP and yet being within 1/3-1/2 stop in SNR and ahead by 2 stops in DR. I hope not, but it\'s not a completely unlikely scenario in any fashion.
Now I really hope that is not the case. I hope the stuff about 1DX being a full stop better is just marketing BS trying to make 1DX buyers feel better and I hope the lack of mention of low ISO DR improvements is just some marketing guy not even realizing that mattered and thinking that everything is about high ISO. And I hope we do get at least a 1.5 stop jump in low ISO DR, if not 2 stops. I hope the banding mess and clumping noise from that is gone at low and high ISO. I hope they did do wonders and get a full stop noise improvement over the 5D2. Then we would be getting improve image quality too, even if not a MP increase. But these things are very far from certain and the talk from Canon isn\'t entirely encouraging. The early samples make it seem like high iso banding might be less but it\'s hard to say.
D800 also includes intervalometer and pop-up flash (maybe $250 value in Canon timer and mini-third party flash terms terms) and a better metering system with a fancier metering chip and logic circuit.
Hopefully the AF will totally rock and zoom past Nikon AF. Hopefully they somehow did noticeably improve the sensor so we get the same D800 DR plus 2/3 - 1 stop better SNR. Hopefully the video mode will be much cleaner from artifacts than the Nikon. We do get 6fps vs 5fps without paying for a grip (although for those who want the grip for sports shooting anyway this suddenly becomes moot point). Maybe it can be worth $500 more then (unless the MP count was your key interest, that certainly would be nice for landscapes and wildlife). I have some doubts about all that though.
Mar 04, 2012 at 01:39 PM
Previous versions of skibum5's message #10405578 « Is Canon repositioning itself? »
