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which lens has the most 3D POP?

  
 
RoamingScott
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p.63 #1 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


Seeing some examples from the new Nikon 85 1.2, that thing is a 3D printer!


Mar 24, 2023 at 04:15 PM
lensfan
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p.63 #2 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


RoamingScott wrote:
Seeing some examples from the new Nikon 85 1.2, that thing is a 3D printer!


Longer FL and narrow plane of focus compressing 3D objects (noses) into flat 2D objects?



Mar 24, 2023 at 04:41 PM
philip_pj
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p.63 #3 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


(This thread first appeared in February 2011, for those new to the forums.)

What is dimensionality? This very detailed and comprehensive commentary on the quality that people call '3D Pop' is of great relevance for those of us with a great desire for our images to resemble the real world we inhabit, produced in a lively and very attractive way.

"Dimensionality is essentially the qualities that allow images to resemble real life."
...





May 19, 2025 at 01:35 AM
gdanmitchell
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p.63 #4 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


Taking that photo from the video in the previous post, whatever “dimensionality” (or other invented buzzword) it has does not come from using a particular brand and model of lens. (It could be produced with a wide range of lenses with generally the same objective features.)

Instead of looking for magic lenses, just look at the image from a visual perspective to see what is going on.

It appears that in this case a somewhat wider-than-“normal” focal length was used, which helps present the sense of the face coming close to us than other elements in the frame. Light coming from the side and a bit in front of the subject highlights the closest and most visually interesting element in the image, the person’s face. The left (from the viewer’s perspective” side of the face and the eyes are the brightest visual highlights — and the lighting on the face is well controlled and not overdone.

The lighting also serves to project the face closer to our perception. Note the shadow on the side of the face toward the center of the frame (broken by the much lighter eye, again — important!) and the way that the hair and shoulders are much darker — approaching actual black, thus reinforcing the focus on the subject’s face.

Note also the direction of the subject’s gaze — not directly at the camera but both upwards and toward the center of the frame. (For rule-of-thirds aficionados, the facial center of interest is about 1/3 in from the left, yet the gaze takes us into the center, darker, less detailed are of the frame.)

The primary subject is also lighter than secondary/background elements. In fact, not only are those background aspects of the frame much darker — sometimes appearing to be virtually black and without detail — but the edges of the frame appear to have been made even darker with a vignetting effect, a common and effective technique for bring attention to the central subject. (This also somewhat simulates the way our visual system works, in that we focus on whatever we are actually looking at, while the presence of other elements around and further away from out central gaze is diminished.)

While the overall tones of the image are in th cooler (bluer) range, that is even truer of the background, where everything falls into deep shadow and there is virtually no distracting detail. Even though the overall tones of the face is on the cool side, but comparison (and that is important) the face seems warmer overall, and has some warmer tone highlights, such as the lips. (Again, it isn’t so much how warm those tones are — more important is how they compare to the very cool and dark tones in the background areas.)

There’s a lot more that could be noted about the posing, lighting, focus, and composition of this image. For example, note that the angle of the subject’s dark, shadowed shoulder (lower center) leads toward the central focus of the face, and this is reinforced by the slightly lighter “blob” of OOF background above that line.

You can do this with any half-decent lens of an appropriate focal length. If you want to create photographs that work this way…

… stop wasting time chasing after the Magical Perfect ‘3D Pop” Lens Of The Gods (which does not exist) and start paying a hell of a lot more attention to composition, lighting, color, focus, line, and more.



May 19, 2025 at 02:09 AM
LBJ2
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p.63 #5 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


philip_pj wrote:
(This thread first appeared in February 2011, for those new to the forums.)

What is dimensionality? This very detailed and comprehensive commentary on the quality that people call '3D Pop' is of great relevance for those of us with a great desire for our images to resemble the real world we inhabit, produced in a lively and very attractive way.

"Dimensionality is essentially the qualities that allow images to resemble real life."
...




Thank you for posting! Well worth watching a few times for those of us interested in some or all of these topics:

0:00 - Intro
1:12 - Shadows
2:10 - Color
6:41 - Is Image Quality Real?
7:49 - Contrast
10:17 - Acutance
11:41 - Micro Contrast
18:42 - Dimensionality
21:09 - Immersion
23:47 - 3D Pop
27:57 - Three Dimensional Characteristics
31:52 - Subjective Viewing Conditions
35:04 - Bokeh
40:51 - Motion Cadence
45:59 - Organic
47:11 - What is Image Quality?
49:05 - Credits

For those that might not want to stick with the entirety of the video, see Marko Li's blog post on the same. *Images are downloadable for further scrutiny and comparison.

https://www.cleverghost.net/blog/imagequality



May 19, 2025 at 09:32 AM
Desmolicious
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p.63 #6 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


3D pop at f11

$30 gets you an ‘Olga, mate. And for that you get a lens AND a camera…





May 19, 2025 at 09:40 AM
KarmaKramer
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p.63 #7 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


I’ve found that any subject shown in its full length, shot at the right distance with narrow dof and space behind it, shows 3D qualities. Be it a bicycle, lawn gnome, animal, tree or person. The background needs to be well exposed also, darkening the background mucks it up. Loads of lenses could do that.
What I’ve noticed anyway….



May 19, 2025 at 10:22 AM
RustyBug
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p.63 #8 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


KarmaKramer wrote:
I’ve found that any subject shown in its full length, shot at the right distance with narrow dof and space behind it, shows 3D qualities. Be it a bicycle, lawn gnome, animal, tree or person. The background needs to be well exposed also, darkening the background mucks it up. Loads of lenses could do that.
What I’ve noticed anyway….


What you've described is essentially subject / background separation ... depth of the scene. I think for some they are thinking more in terms of the modeling dimensionality of the subject, rather than the amount of BG separation. Skinny DOF can readily provide BG separation. But, skinny DOF doesn't necessarily contribute to modeling provided by rate of transition / acutance / micro contrast, etc.



May 19, 2025 at 07:52 PM
scrappydog
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p.63 #9 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


Of all the lenses I have shot, the one with the most dimensionality, meaning everything is in focus and yet you can clearly see the depth within the shot, is the Zeiss Distagon T* 25mm f/2 ZE (they also made a ZF.2 version for Nikon). That lens was wow. The finest Zeiss sharpness, contrast, and microcontrast in spades.


May 19, 2025 at 08:03 PM
Garmadon
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p.63 #10 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


That's a very good read.
You should pin this article/video , I've been looking for somthing like that for some time.

I did noticed that when I restore too much of the highlights and lose the specular highlights - the dimentionality and 'realness' of the photo goes away . same goes for shadows .
LBJ2 wrote:
Thank you for posting! Well worth watching a few times for those of us interested in some or all of these topics:

0:00 - Intro
1:12 - Shadows
2:10 - Color
6:41 - Is Image Quality Real?
7:49 - Contrast
10:17 - Acutance
11:41 - Micro Contrast
18:42 - Dimensionality
21:09 - Immersion
23:47 - 3D Pop
27:57 - Three Dimensional Characteristics
31:52 - Subjective Viewing Conditions
35:04 - Bokeh
40:51 - Motion Cadence
45:59 - Organic
47:11 - What is Image Quality?
49:05 - Credits

For those that might not want to stick with the entirety of the video, see Marko Li's blog post on the same. *Images are downloadable for further scrutiny and comparison.
...Show more



May 20, 2025 at 12:58 AM
 


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jay w
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p.63 #11 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


scrappydog wrote:
Of all the lenses I have shot, the one with the most dimensionality, meaning everything is in focus and yet you can clearly see the depth within the shot, is the Zeiss Distagon T* 25mm f/2 ZE (they also made a ZF.2 version for Nikon). That lens was wow. The finest Zeiss sharpness, contrast, and microcontrast in spades.


First off, that video is great.

On the 25mm F2...I picked up that lens on a whim when B&H was closing it out at half price. Out in Glacier, I picked a nice scene one morning and compared the Canon 16-35 F4, Zeiss Distagon 21mm 2.8, and the 25mm F2 (and maybe more). I couldn't tell any difference in the (landscape) photos, but I was mainly looking for sharpness. So kept using the 16-35 and the 25mm sat unused for a few years.

I pulled it out again and shot it a bit in the neighborhood on a Canon and liked it (except for the focus confirm LED which never gave me confidence about focus). It surprised me because it's kind of a tripod lens on a Canon. When I adapted it to a Sony and could focus precisely, I really started liking the lens and the look.






F3.2






F2.5



May 20, 2025 at 11:58 AM
philip_pj
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p.63 #12 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


Several of us that are interested in both the technical issues and image observations of image depth (dimensionality) have come across the obscuring of a special type of glass that is involved in optical correction.

This is High Refractive Index (HRI) glass. It may be emerging as a key factor in the production or deficit of image depth - the perception of spatial volume that resembles real life vision. The presenter of the video below speaks of 'true to life' and that is a valid way to describe the effect (and by exclusion, to omit most other modern lenses that lack the effect).

Now, many producers will give you lens specifications in terms of the number and often placement of 'special glass' in their lens diagrams. Most of the producers we are interested in (CV, Zeiss, Leica) describe aspherics and give a catch-all category they call APD or Anomalous Partial Dispersion glass. The use of the word 'dispersion' tells us this is very likely to be purely another form of ED, and many of Cosina's recent lenses (APO and near APO) use only this APD glass, along with regular elements.

(C/N/Sigma seem obsessed with ever more fancy 'ED" terms, indicating their priority and this is confirmed in their lenses' images). 'Extra low' equates to super dooper CA correction.

But if we look at early Leica APO lenses we notice this other category called HRI listed for these very premium lenses.

Now, the new producer DZO/Thypoch actually lists its glass composition components, including HRI. As an example, a lens with some of the best image depth I've seen in my own use - the Simera 28/1.4 - has just one ED element (the very front one) followed by three HRI elements, with the design ending in just one aspheric, something Zeiss used for many lenses including all the early Otuses.
..
..




May 21, 2025 at 09:54 PM
philip_pj
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p.63 #13 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


So HRI may be part of the puzzle, as another pathway - an alternative to the 'ED/asph erasure of CA' makers. Another issue raised in the video is the presence of what he terms 'micro-gradation'. We all understand micro-contrast, but I want to raise the existence of a strange phenomenon I've noticed processing large numbers of Simera lens images.

I'm seeing unusual histograms that have many adjacent tonal values (like say, 120-121-122-123) having the same or almost identical pixel counts. I think what is happening here is that Thypoch are designing for 'tonal micro-gradation' to provide very fine distinction of brightness levels of image motifs. Especially of peoples' faces, these being essentially cinematic lenses.

If my reasoning is sound, this results in images with very well-developed changes of shading from very small shifts in brightness tones. These shifts interact with color and produce a more lifelike appearance that resonates with our visual systems - even if we don't register it consciously.

So it may be that very fine control of light reflectance enhances the degree and impact of shading on subjects in image space. It stands to reason that better control of light transitions on a subject could add to finer shading and thence better 3D or dimensionality.

It also seems DZO/Thypoch have pursued the effect across other design moves: 14/16 blade apertures give them fine control of halation in bokeh objects; great linearity of fade with distance from the camera to mimic what they eye sees; a slow-moderate fade from the focal plane again to emulate what we see, instead of the 'green screen/cutout' look of the others. A few examples below:




linearity of fade with distance from the camera, see people from 5m to forecourt of Taj






control of halation in bokeh objects; great linearity of fade with distance; slow-moderate fade, even at 28mm






fine detail brightness tone gradation in faces and highlights (shirts, skin), retained outlines in distant building




May 21, 2025 at 10:26 PM
RustyBug
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p.63 #14 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


philip_pj wrote:
So HRI may be part of the puzzle, as another pathway - an alternative to the 'ED/asph erasure of CA' makers. Another issue raised in the video is the presence of what he terms 'micro-gradation'. We all understand micro-contrast, but I want to raise the existence of a strange phenomenon I've noticed processing large numbers of Simera lens images.

I'm seeing unusual histograms that have many adjacent tonal values (like say, 120-121-122-123) having the same or almost identical pixel counts. I think what is happening here is that Thypoch are designing for 'tonal micro-gradation' to provide very fine distinction of
...Show more

+1 that the "rate of transition" is a piece of the puzzle. Too fast, and things look "cutout". Too slow, and things look "flat". How that rate of transition occurs ... and where the subject is placed in relationship to the transitions among Zones A, B, C in the frame can influence the perception.

There was a good article (of yore, I can't find) that spoke to Leica's approach to this (pre-Karbe) I read quite some years back. Kinda stinks that I can't find / recall it, to share with folks.



May 21, 2025 at 10:58 PM
philip_pj
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p.63 #15 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


3D (dimensionality) specifically in portraits

I’m looking here at this example comparison (by Dustin Abbott) of the Viltrox 35/1.2 and Sony’s GM 35/1.4. The methodology is sound (same lighting, aperture, expression, head tilt, etc) which is very important if we are to make valid conclusions. Some of the factors will certainly overlap with those that determine 3D at longer focal distances and with different arrangements of image objects (motifs). The focal distance is also similar to what users would employ, around 1.5-2m. It’s at 21:28 here on YT:

GM VS LAB: 35mm Showdown | Do We Have a New Champion?

The first point to make is that focal planes are very thin at regular focal distances at f1.4, even in 35mm lenses. Many results flow from this often-unstated aspect of portraiture. And in fact, it also confirms the need to closely consider the entire out of focus ‘bokeh field’ for any fast lens, because they are designed partially or primarily for this usage.

Put simply, in low light or to avoid clutter in backgrounds, you don’t have much choice other than to use wider apertures, and you quickly come to appreciate reliable and enjoyable bokeh, which can keep the focus on the subject while providing some context, if it is managed well. Bokeh is a spectrum characteristic, ranging from the fashionable full blur to more gentle contextual backgrounds (and foregrounds).

But this wafer of the focal plane is the only section of any image shot at wide apertures for which we can speak accurately of ‘sharpness’ and micro-contrast. Reviewers who gleefully point to aberrations like fringing, LoCA, SA etc. at wide open aperture, and wax lyrical about sharpness wide open tend to pay no attention to other critical elements that, taken together, influence how our portrait images look. Most of these affect the images’ out-of-focus regions which (very important) include focus transitions.

The ones I want to mention here all apply at the fine level; images are constructed from the ground up, something reviewers intuitively know so they habitually use crops and charts to illustrate their comments.

Micro-contrast

Most know what they need to know about micro-contrast (apart from the fact that all MTF is micro-contrast, as it appears in images). This is the attribute that instils sharpness but it is only valid for planar subjects such as test charts - ‘the focal plane is where the image is formed, and *its thickness is minimal, essentially a point or a thin surface’; ‘it's a small distance, measured in millimetres.’* If you are looking at a face such as in these images, the focal plane might be as little as 5% of what you see.

Micro-focus

I know you have never heard the term before, nor have I. By this word, I mean the measurement between two points separated by longitudinal space from the lens. It refers to the difference in focus between these points, as manufactured by the fade character of the lens: how fast the fade is, and whether the focus fade is linear or if it changes its rate (fading faster or slower with longitudinal (axial) distance). These points may both be inside out-of-focus regions or one may be on the focal plane. The macro attributes all apply to bokeh points as well: contrast, definition, color, etc. How lenses respond to small changes of focus will impact the image significantly.

Micro-brightness (tonal gradation, micro-gradation (h/t Dirty photography club)

All pixels have their level of brightness, they are the raw material for our familiar image histograms that graph pixels counts in 256 increments (values: 0-255). This term describes the ability of the lens to accurately depict differences in brightness at the pixel (or local) level. The value of this measure is that it may show discrimination between adjacent parts of a subject in our images – in this case small sections of a face. Note that tone depiction applies to pixels not only located on the focal plane, but also inside the transition zone or full bokeh (where full abstraction leads to amorphous clouds of blur).

Analysis

It may be clear to you that one image here has better image depth than the other. It’s immediately apparent from the global level, the left image’s face is just easier to look at and it conveys that sense that you ‘understand’ it. Macro contrast is stronger, but micro-contrast is close to equal. And a warmer color palette helps as well, but these are insufficient to explain all of what we see – the extra life, the better shaping of features like the chin, lips and cheeks. The Sony image has large regions of rather flat and plain bright tones that expand out from the in-focus parts - these interfere with identifying the small facial regions by smearing a flat and near-uniform color across most of the face, in focus or not.

In the left side image, we can see better definition of the skin blemishes around the sides of the cheeks, far from the focal plane. Shadow detail in the right side image is lighter and highlight detail is decreased by lower definition of features. Contrast in the hair is weaker and ear definition is less apparent. The chin in the Viltrox image is very well drawn, but the lower face is flatter and less clear in the Sony image.

Conclusion

3D in faces is accentuated by small motifs that signal depth to our visual system. I’d expect a smoother histogram with fewer spikes. So micro-color and micro-brightness are playing a big role here, helped along by the better retention of facial structures in out-of-focus areas in its focus transition. They are all stronger in the Viltrox such that the left side image shows a clear step up in terms of clarity and presence.

It’s more faithful to how this face would look in real life. It’s almost as though the Viltrox lens was prepared to make better use of the light falling on the subject. Does it matter? If you want to photograph faces that resemble what we see in real life, yes it does. That Viltrox was able to do so well is quite a surprise. I hope that this exercise demonstrates the value of 3D for portraits as well as other photographic applications.






Viltrox 35/1.2 and Sony GM 35/1.4, both at f1.4




May 24, 2025 at 11:12 PM
Jonas B
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p.63 #16 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


philip_pj wrote:
3D (dimensionality) specifically in portraits


It's interesting.
I clearly prefer the image to the left.
I tried to understand why I do so. There are some clear differences between the images.

The first one can't pass unnoticed and that is the background difference. It's disturbing in the image to the right as it makes the image more unbalanced to my eyes. It's easier to look at as you said.
The second difference is the exposure. My eyes/brain say the image to the right got more light than the left one. That is unfavourable as minor details can't be seen in the image to the right.
The third difference took a few seconds for me to see and it is that the plane of focus is not the same in the two images. Abbot's right eye (which is to the left in the image, just to be clear) are sharper in the image to the left. I think that makes a difference to me when I look at the faces which are so up in my face.

The differences make it impossible for me to say one lens is "better" than the other. What I can say is that the viltrox LAB series seem very interesting.

_If_ the images were taken and published with the intention to have them scrutinized this way I think Abbot should have paid attention to these differences. It shows how hard, or close to impossible it is to get everything the same also in controlled environments.

To see/compare the differences easier I copied the image, separated the right and left so I got two images, laid them on top of each other in Photoshop and checked them out while hiding or showing the top image layer.



May 25, 2025 at 01:39 AM
Jonas B
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p.63 #17 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


philip_pj wrote:
[...]
Micro-brightness (tonal gradation, micro-gradation (h/t Dirty photography club)

All pixels have their level of brightness, they are the raw material for our familiar image histograms that graph pixels counts in 256 increments (values: 0-255). This term describes the ability of the lens to accurately depict differences in brightness at the pixel (or local) level. The value of this measure is that it may show discrimination between adjacent parts of a subject in our images – in this case small sections of a face. Note that tone depiction applies to pixels not only located on the focal plane, but also inside the
...Show more

Is this a real thing?
I can imagine differences caused by flare but not something changing in a specific area limited in a way making us able to tell exactly which pixels that are affected. Maybe you could call it "micro-flare". ;-)



May 25, 2025 at 01:45 AM
gdanmitchell
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p.63 #18 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


Comparing those two images to draw conclusions about lens performance is a fool’s errand.

They are not lit the same, and they are not cropped the same.

Whatever other differences there are shrink to nothing compared to what we typically do with even minor adjustments in post.

For the umpteenth time, all of the micro-this and micro-that that people keep going on about is essentiallymake meaningless when comparing excellent lenses from different manufacturers…

… and this thing that people refer to as “pop” does not come from lenses. It comes from all o fthe other decisions that photographers make regarding composition, lighting, focal length, aperture choice, color relationships, depth of field, and more.

Learn about those things and how to use them and you can make photographs from any camera and lens “pop.”

philip_pj wrote:
3D (dimensionality) specifically in portraits

I’m looking here at this example comparison (by Dustin Abbott) of the Viltrox 35/1.2 and Sony’s GM 35/1.4. The methodology is sound (same lighting, aperture, expression, head tilt, etc) which is very important if we are to make valid conclusions. Some of the factors will certainly overlap with those that determine 3D at longer focal distances and with different arrangements of image objects (motifs). The focal distance is also similar to what users would employ, around 1.5-2m. It’s at 21:28 here on YT:

GM VS LAB: 35mm Showdown | Do We Have a New Champion?

The first point
...Show more




May 25, 2025 at 01:53 AM
jeffersoncasey
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p.63 #19 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


gdanmitchell wrote:
Comparing those two images to draw conclusions about lens performance is a fool’s errand.


And making it few more pairs doesn't make a difference, either. 😁

To certain degree of being objective, though, image with higher contrast while maintaining smooth and gradual tonal transition will give more 3D look to it, and top it off with minute and subtle color variations between similar colors will make it look life-like and contribute further to the 3D ness (which is why sometimes converting to B&W looks more 3D because color variations were taken out). Not hard to see which looked more 3D between the two posted image by Abbot.

On the more subjective side, if images presented with above quality as much as possible SOOC will look more 3D regardless if no additional edits done apart from basic tonality. That includes individual or combinations of lens, camera sensor, RAW converter, and most importantly, lighting. IMHO images with limited or less desirable tonal quality to start with often end up flatter images even with careful edit - unless you manually "paint" (manipulate) the tonality which is PITA (often done in landscape and portrait photography).

With all that being said, I've stop chasing what people think something is or isn't, I love what I saw from what I purchased and it makes me feel good, that's all it count.



May 25, 2025 at 04:07 AM
RustyBug
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p.63 #20 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


gdanmitchell wrote:
… and this thing that people refer to as “pop” does not come from lenses. It comes from all o fthe other decisions that photographers make regarding composition, lighting, focal length, aperture choice, color relationships, depth of field, and more.

Learn about those things and how to use them and you can make photographs from any camera and lens “pop.”



I agree that there are a variety of aspects involved that effect the image.

But, I cannot wholesale discount the difference that a lens design makes / contributes to the image, rendering.

The OP question was regarding the differing impact that comes from different lenses. That question does not get answered by stating that other things are a piece of the puzzle. They are, but that wasn't the question.

If the lens didn't matter or contribute anything ... then ALL lenses would look the same (for a given set of other aspects).

There's a difference in suggesting that today's lenses are largely pretty darn good at a lot of things ... i.e. above a certain threshold of competence ... and asking which lenses have certain attributes of rendering.

I understand that the "pop" of the lens isn't the "tell all / do all" attribute to be chasing (been there, done that in the epic "What is 3D" thread a decade ago), but I'm quite certain that not all lenses are created equal, in this (one) area of attribute. One could insert bokeh, in lieu of pop ... and the answer would likewise be that not all lenses render the same. The matter of that rendering being critical (or not) to an image ... well, again, that's a different question, that often yields a different answer.

Lens designers build in different rates of transition between the focal plane and the zones A, B, C ... such lens design choices will have different influence on the amount / location in the image that those rates of falloff are faster / slower in transition. Does that make one better / worse than another ... nah, just makes it different.



May 25, 2025 at 07:24 AM
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