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which lens has the most 3D POP?

  
 
Jonas B
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p.157 #1 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


jojib, in page 156, post #9, the first image, is that with full mechanical shutter? That's one of the images with, to my eyes, disturbing bokeh.


Oct 03, 2026 at 05:27 AM
jojib
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p.157 #2 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


Hi Jonas,

Ummmm I don't see anything wrong with it. It looks silky smooth on my monitor. Now this bokeh is a bit nervous but since it is from the old EF 35/1.4 L----it's called character.






Canon EOS R6 Mark II
1/1250s f/1.4 at 35.0mm iso100



Oct 03, 2026 at 05:34 AM
Jonas B
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p.157 #3 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


jojib wrote:
Hi Jonas,

Ummmm I don't see anything wrong with it. It looks silky smooth on my monitor.


OK, then everything is fine I guess.

Now this bokeh is a bit nervous but since it is from the old EF 35/1.4 L----it's called character.

[image]


Yeah, but that is lens related, the image I pointed at shows a problem related to the camera settings. Different cause, different result. But then again, we all see and perceive in different ways.



Oct 03, 2026 at 06:10 AM
Ripolini
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p.157 #4 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


philip_pj wrote:
Color tone separation was always very important to my landscape work, providing depth and reality - dimensionality in other words. (Mamiya 7II 65/4)


Medium and large format have always providen smooth tonal transitions thus giving 3D rendering.
If shooting at f/1.2-f/1.4 would suffice to give 3D pop, any lens that fast would provide depth and reality. It's not the case.
Once again, I see off-topic images in this thread that simply show completely different stuff, because people confuse shallow DoF with dimensionality.



Oct 03, 2026 at 06:34 AM
jojib
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p.157 #5 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


Jonas B wrote:
OK, then everything is fine I guess.

Yeah, but that is lens related, the image I pointed at shows a problem related to the camera settings. Different cause, different result. But then again, we all see and perceive in different ways.


You meant this picture right? This is the original except I clicked on Auto (image was slightly underexposed) using ACR. Yes I used the mechanical shutter.






SONY ILCE-7M5
1/5000s f/1.2 at 35.0mm iso100

BTW, off topic---I did a Northern European ocean cruise this summer. We had engine problems so the ship did not stop in Stockholm. I was so ticked and now I have to go there on my own. Apparently the Gamla Stan Stortorget is a nice place to do a shoot in the early morning.



Oct 03, 2026 at 06:44 AM
Makten
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p.157 #6 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


jojib wrote:
You meant this picture right?


That one, and a few more:

[url]https://a4.pbase.com/g13/30/64330/2/176593022.ed0bdf2c.JPEG[/url]
[url]https://a4.pbase.com/o12/30/64330/1/176594323.ObscU8Eh.1DSC05066.jpg[/url] (very minor because not super fast)
[url]https://a4.pbase.com/o12/30/64330/1/176594823.Qry61XHn.1DSC05413.jpg[/url]

Edit: Trying to only link to them, but that doesn't seem possible.



Oct 03, 2026 at 06:55 AM
jojib
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p.157 #7 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


Makten wrote:
That one, and a few more:

[url]https://a4.pbase.com/g13/30/64330/2/176593022.ed0bdf2c.jpg[/url]
[url]https://a4.pbase.com/o12/30/64330/1/176594323.ObscU8Eh.1DSC05066.jpg[/url] (very minor because not super fast)
[url]https://a4.pbase.com/o12/30/64330/1/176594823.Qry61XHn.1DSC05413.jpg[/url]

Edit: Trying to only link to them, but that doesn't seem possible.


I couldn't make out the file number of the first one but here are the two. Again, I just click on Auto. IMHO, the only weakness of this lens is shooting the subject that is in a shade and in heavily backlit background. It would sometimes hunt but not for long.






SONY ILCE-7M5
1/1600s f/1.2 at 35.0mm iso100





SONY ILCE-7M5
1/4000s f/1.2 at 35.0mm iso100



Oct 03, 2026 at 07:47 AM
ruthenium
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p.157 #8 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


RustyBug wrote:
+1 that it is not a consensus situation.

That said, my perspective of 3D-(ishness) is that of dimensionality / spatial perspectives associated with depth transitions.

"pop" then is the abrupt, uber rapid transition that is more rapid than what one considers to be a "normal" rate of transition. If we take the word as it is generally defined / used, we see applications for a "pop" gun, "pop" goes the weasel, "pop"corn ... all things that have an abruptness to them that occurs with a degree of suddenness. I have proposed this numerous times over the years, and never any takers, only
...Show more →

If I understand you correctly, you suggest that three-dimentionality in a picture is distinct from the "3D pop."
I tend to agree with you, at least I agree that there is a sufficient difference.
For example, the photo posted by Tim recently is an example of three-dimentionality. The reasons for this are relatively simple and straightforward - painters have created this effect by using changes in light (bright to shadow to black) and optionally colors for contrast for hundreds of years (if not longer). A photo can work to the same effect when the light is "right" (think mornings and evenings, typically). No background separation by bokey is required, and f/8 - f/11 apertures can perfectly work for a three-dimensional picture. The important thing is to create or capture the transitions in light and color and have sufficient contrast overall.
3D pop seems to imply a singular subject that appears disconnected in a way from the rest of the picture. For example, in the first of the two pictures from 4ALL in this post
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/983034/155#17116720
it is the flower pot above the main subject that "pops" to my eye, rather than the main subject.

When you say ""pop" then is the abrupt, uber rapid transition that is more rapid than what one considers to be a "normal" rate of transition" - do you mean this is typically seen both in front and behind the popping subject in a picture?
In practical terms, do you think that typically both the background and the foreground should be separated, e.g., blurred to a degree?



Oct 03, 2026 at 08:52 AM
4ALL
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p.157 #9 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


Ripolini wrote:
Medium and large format have always providen smooth tonal transitions thus giving 3D rendering.
If shooting at f/1.2-f/1.4 would suffice to give 3D pop, any lens that fast would provide depth and reality. It's not the case.
Once again, I see off-topic images in this thread that simply show completely different stuff, because people confuse shallow DoF with dimensionality.


I think you're overlooking a contradiction in your own argument.

If smooth tonal transitions were the only reason behind the medium and large format look, then format equivalence wouldn't matter nearly as much as it does in practice.

One of the defining characteristics of larger formats is their ability to achieve much shallower depth of field for the same framing and angle of view. That subject separation is a major reason why medium format images are often perceived as more three-dimensional.

At the same time, there seems to be a growing tendency to attribute everything to modern 100 MP sensors, resolution, and tonal gradation. In reality, the "3D look" is usually a combination of many factors: depth cues, microcontrast, local contrast, the transition from in-focus to out-of-focus areas, and overall lens rendering.






Fuji X PRO 1 ZM C Sonnar 50mm ƒ/2.0 - ƒ/2.8 Shift-Focus Version




Oct 03, 2026 at 03:28 PM
4ALL
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p.157 #10 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


ruthenium wrote:
When you say ""pop" then is the abrupt, uber rapid transition that is more rapid than what one considers to be a "normal" rate of transition" - do you mean this is typically seen both in front and behind the popping subject in a picture?
In practical terms, do you think that typically both the background and the foreground should be separated, e.g., blurred to a degree?


As for my first image with flowers, I think your observation is completely fair. Composition always plays a huge role in how attractive or convincing an image appears, and in that particular frame I can understand why your eye is drawn to the flower pot rather than the main subject.

The palm tree image, however, was a different story. To me, that's where the lens' plasticity becomes visible. In my opinion, it's a good example of a lens drawing a scene rather than simply rendering it.




Oct 03, 2026 at 03:57 PM
 


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philip_pj
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p.157 #11 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


The new found emphasis on smooth transitions by some lens producers is best seen as trying to put lipstick on a two plane pig. Everyone claims to have lenses that exhibit 'smooth' transitions, irrespective of whether their lenses are designed to belong to the now fading two plane model of 3D rendering.

It's called the two plane model because separation is the only thing that matters. It is comprised of the main plane - a foreground generally super sharp subject, often disparaged a a 'cut out' stood in front of a broadly amorphous bokeh field, with very poor longitudinal differentiation or even identifiable content.

Shapes of subject matter mysteriously blur into each other in a kind of crazed and macabre dance - it is optically worthless aprt from providing reviewers the opportunity to conduct forensic examinations of bokeh ball shapes and interior asph remnants.

These background bokeh contents are what so many reviewers class as good bokeh! To them, blur levels equal bokeh quality in a positive correlation. It has spawned a entire class of lens that must perform (almost as its sole purpose) at their very wide apertures because that is their raison d'etre. Because lens ranges persist for decades, these manufacturers are stuck with this passing fashion model so they must defend it with advertising and engineered exclusivity.

Many double down by producing even faster aperture lenses despite their massive downsides in weight, size and expense. What content manages to survive this onslaught of blur is very difficult to look at for more than moment!

It's a quite extraordinary circumstance. How this model of photographic reality ever came to be regarded as dimensional is beyond the rational observer - it is clearly an optical artifact, a conjured abstraction divorced from reality.

This is not to say we do not want the ability to use blur artistically - some composition situations do benefit from it, but you need a strong reason to do so - an engaging human model being the main one, with unwanted clutter behind them.

We call these flat lenses, because even with the reintroduction of slower focus fade from the focal plane, their huge apertures and reason for existence, tend to overwhelm any graceful loss of focus material - things like ears, shoulders, sometimes even the other eye that happened to be a smidgen off perpendicular to the focal plane. It's made worse by closer focus, of course, head/shoulders show the effect more than half or full body shots.



Oct 03, 2026 at 04:51 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.157 #12 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


Well, yes, this clearly explains why no one can produce good photography any more…

;-)

philip_pj wrote:
The new found emphasis on smooth transitions by some lens producers is best seen as trying to put lipstick on a two plane pig. Everyone claims to have lenses that exhibit 'smooth' transitions, irrespective of whether their lenses are designed to belong to the now fading two plane model of 3D rendering.

It's called the two plane model because separation is the only thing that matters. It is comprised of the main plane - a foreground generally super sharp subject, often disparaged a a 'cut out' stood in front of a broadly amorphous bokeh field, with very poor longitudinal differentiation or
...Show more →




Oct 03, 2026 at 04:56 PM
philip_pj
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p.157 #13 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


Now we have so many close focus fast lenses appearing, even in M-mount. That development and the appearance of very fast wide angle lenses - 35mm being the anchor here, but really even decent 28mm and 24mm lenses serve well for people imagery - on the street etc.

Bokeh from these lenses is a very different matter and a big challenge, though nowhere near as much as 50mm and longer focal lengths. As seen in jojib's above, if your bokeh is well-designed (smooth but rich in content identification, even in deep fade) the images are very sound.

Leica's Noctilux 35/1.2 is a 'future fast lens' which has to wait its turn until the current APOmania (and coincident forensic hunts for residual CA) subsides into the scenery (so to speak).

For deep DOF images, it's the same as it ever was: 'f8 and be there', graduated color tonality, clear contrast of subject matter, excellent color discrimination. All formats. But that is not the battleground right now.



Oct 03, 2026 at 05:42 PM
jojib
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p.157 #14 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


Yeah Philip, I got no complaints with the bokeh of the Viltrox 35/1.2 LAB N and I gotten used to the weight too :-) Really balances well with the A7V + OEM vertical grip. I've been pairing it either with the Batis 85 or the 135 GM. I think the colours of the Batis match the Viltrox or close enough. Just like the GOAT investor Warren Buffett said awhile back, 'I rather be vaguely right than precisely wrong.'






SONY ILCE-7M5
1/250s f/5.6 at 85.0mm iso250





SONY ILCE-7M5
1/3200s f/1.2 at 35.0mm iso100



Oct 03, 2026 at 06:27 PM
4ALL
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p.157 #15 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


philip_pj wrote:
Now we have so many close focus fast lenses appearing, even in M-mount. That development and the appearance of very fast wide angle lenses - 35mm being the anchor here, but really even decent 28mm and 24mm lenses serve well for people imagery - on the street etc.

Bokeh from these lenses is a very different matter and a big challenge, though nowhere near as much as 50mm and longer focal lengths. As seen in jojib's above, if your bokeh is well-designed (smooth but rich in content identification, even in deep fade) the images are very sound.

Leica's Noctilux 35/1.2
...Show more →


I have been through this topic extensively, starting all the way from 15mm lenses. I even had three separate attempts with 28mm lenses and ended up selling them all three times.

In general, I don't think wide-angle lenses are particularly well suited for photographing people or portraits. I'm not even talking about geometric distortion. The perspective exaggeration alone is often unacceptable unless someone intentionally likes a caricature-like look, because it doesn't have much to do with realistic rendering.

Wide-angle lenses are also extremely sensitive to camera tilt and positioning. That's one of the reasons they are most commonly used with large depth of field and, on high-resolution sensors, often leave enough room for cropping later.

The technique of shooting with a 28mm lens is completely different from using a normal or short telephoto lens. Personally, I prefer shooting from waist level with the help of a spirit level when working handheld. At the moment, I've fallen in love with the Voigtländer Ultron 28mm Type I. What surprised me the most is that it allows me to take selfies that are significantly better than those from an iPhone, which sounds almost ridiculous to say.

Previously, I used the Sony FE 35mm f/1.8, which made selfies easy, but the autofocus often let me down, and the images lacked the character I get from the Ultron. You're also right that the close focusing distance changes everything. Because it focuses so close, I can set it around f/5.6, fully extend my arm, and get consistently good results.

Regarding aperture, I don't entirely agree with the common assumption that bigger apertures automatically produce better images. In the case of the Ultron, f/5.6 is actually the sweet spot. Aperture size does not automatically translate into higher image quality. In fact, stopping down often increases resolution and overall image performance. The real sweet spot is finding the balance between depth of field and resolution.

For decades I've struggled with making photographs with deep depth of field look clear and readable. It was something that constantly bothered me. Nowadays, if I want a truly impressive image with lots of detail and depth, I often create panoramas by stitching multiple photographs together.

I know a photographer who produces incredible work with the Leica Summilux 21mm f/1.4. However, I remember him writing that it took him about a year to learn how to use that lens properly. He also mentioned that he essentially worked with only two apertures and a two of subject distances, which makes perfect sense to me.

In a way, I arrived at the same conclusion with 28mm. Wide-angle lenses often require a very disciplined and repeatable approach if you want consistent results.

The photos he creates are absolutely stunning, especially from cycling trips and outdoor adventures. That said, I don't think his work is really about searching for beautiful landscapes filled with fine detail. To me, it feels more like a visual essay or a travel journal from the journey itself. The atmosphere, perspective, and sense of being there seem more important than technical detail or picturesque scenery.

And please, don't mention the APO too loudly right now, or you might upset quite a few people given all the hype surrounding it... 😄

Just kidding, don't take that too seriously.

I've already seen some presentations and sample images from the 35mm f/1.2.



Oct 03, 2026 at 08:42 PM
ruthenium
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p.157 #16 · which lens has the most 3D POP?




4ALL wrote:
As for my first image with flowers, I think your observation is completely fair. Composition always plays a huge role in how attractive or convincing an image appears, and in that particular frame I can understand why your eye is drawn to the flower pot rather than the main subject.

The palm tree image, however, was a different story. To me, that's where the lens' plasticity becomes visible. In my opinion, it's a good example of a lens drawing a scene rather than simply rendering it.


If the palm tree image is the second in that post, my immediate thought when I saw it was unrelated to 3D - it was about the legs of the subject and it made me think of one particular reason I like the GFX100S II for environmental portraits: the 4x3 image format. I think it works better in both portrait and landscape orientations, compared to the slimmed 3x2 format that is too narrow for environmental portrays both ways.



Oct 03, 2026 at 11:49 PM
Makten
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p.157 #17 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


jojib wrote:
I couldn't make out the file number of the first one but here are the two. Again, I just click on Auto. IMHO, the only weakness of this lens is shooting the subject that is in a shade and in heavily backlit background. It would sometimes hunt but not for long.


There is nothing wrong with the lens, but you have used electronic front curtain shutter at large aperture and high shutter speed. That makes the blur discs "cut in half".


jojib wrote:
Yeah Philip, I got no complaints with the bokeh of the Viltrox 35/1.2 LAB N and I gotten used to the weight too :-) Really balances well with the A7V + OEM vertical grip. I've been pairing it either with the Batis 85 or the 135 GM. I think the colours of the Batis match the Viltrox or close enough. Just like the GOAT investor Warren Buffett said awhile back, 'I rather be vaguely right than precisely wrong.'

https://a4.pbase.com/o12/30/64330/1/176599650.W29CmWmi.1DSC04040_DxO.jpg
SONY ILCE-7M5
1/250s f/5.6 at 85.0mm iso250
https://a4.pbase.com/o12/30/64330/1/176599649.rE9vGiUr.1DSC03965.jpg
SONY ILCE-7M5
1/3200s f/1.2 at 35.0mm iso100


Very obvious EFCS bokeh in the second one, again.



Oct 04, 2026 at 01:43 AM
freaklikeme
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p.157 #18 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


ruthenium wrote:
If the palm tree image is the second in that post, my immediate thought when I saw it was unrelated to 3D - it was about the legs of the subject and it made me think of one particular reason I like the GFX100S II for environmental portraits: the 4x3 image format. I think it works better in both portrait and landscape orientations, compared to the slimmed 3x2 format that is too narrow for environmental portrays both ways.


Either sensor works best cropped to 7:5, in my opinion.



Oct 04, 2026 at 02:02 AM
Ripolini
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p.157 #19 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


4ALL wrote:
One of the defining characteristics of larger formats is their ability to achieve much shallower depth of field for the same framing and angle of view. That subject separation is a major reason why medium format images are often perceived as more three-dimensional.


I respectfully disagree. DoF has nothing to do with dimensionality.
If this assumption were correct, all macro pictures would transmit a sense of depth and/or 3D.
Consequently, this thread would be flooded with close-ups and macro images (with no focus stacking).

DoF can be exactly described with mathematical equations.

The sense of depth and/or three-dimensionality, on the other hand, is more closely tied to subjective experience—that is, to the way the brain processes what it sees in a two-dimensional image*. Therefore, it is more difficult, perhaps impossible, to address it using quantitative relationships between variables—i.e., equations—as we do with DoF.
My very personal opinion is that the illusion of three-dimensionality is linked to various factors. First and foremost, lighting and perspective, as the history of painting teaches us; then, the relationship between the subject and the background, and the clarity of the background (a background that is too indistinct makes the image appear flat, with the subject looking like a cardboard cutout superimposed on a colored sheet simulating a real background, as many images here demonstrate; isolating the subject from the background is neither a necessary nor sufficient condition for creating a sense of three-dimensionality; this does not mean, however, that it cannot have its own artistic or communicative value; but that is a different matter).

Finally, there is the aspect related to the medium used to capture the scene. Here, another factor comes into play that does the exact opposite of what the cardboard superimposed on the sheet does: the gradual transition from in-focus to out-of-focus, thanks to the subtlety of tonal transitions. To achieve more gradual tonal transitions, more “information” is needed. Given the same sensor size, the quality of the lens plays a role**. As the sensor size increases, so does the amount of information, and thus the type of camera (APS-C, full-frame, medium format, etc.) also comes into play. Resolution is another factor, but the signal-to-noise ratio begins to affect the amount of information (Mpix); furthermore, it is always the lens that collects the light; therefore, it is necessary to evaluate the combination of camera, sensor, Mpix, and lens in order to avoid bottlenecks.

---
*: Our brain is accustomed to binocular vision, and this also enhances the sense of depth we perceive in what we see in reality.
**: A lens with residual aberrations generally does not contribute to smooth transitions, since optical aberrations “subtract” information by adding noise and entropy. This does not mean that using lenses with a distinct “character” prevents you from capturing images with a sense of three-dimensionality: as I mentioned above, there are many other factors besides the lens that a photographer can utilize. Certainly, I’ll reiterate, it’s not enough to just buy an f/1.2 lens and shoot wide open.



Oct 04, 2026 at 04:02 AM
Jonas B
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p.157 #20 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


jojib wrote:
I couldn't make out the file number of the first one but here are the two. Again, I just click on Auto. IMHO, the only weakness of this lens is shooting the subject that is in a shade and in heavily backlit background. It would sometimes hunt but not for long.



Makten wrote:
There is nothing wrong with the lens, but you have used electronic front curtain shutter at large aperture and high shutter speed. That makes the blur discs "cut in half".
[...]


jojib: Maybe you don't care for the cut bokeh balls (those that philip_pj has to search for to see, we are all different as mentioned) but the EFC affects other things as well. You'll get an overall softer, and for most eyes more pleasing, OOF areas if you avoid EFCS.



Oct 04, 2026 at 05:29 AM
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