sperraglia wrote:
No need to welcome me to the USA since I was born and raised in the USA. I don't think anybody has said here that everyone has to believe the same thing, but since it is the USA we have information freely available which we can choose to use in evaluating our decisions on the photography products we purchase.
Every RRS post keeps going the same way, it's gotten quite old.... I too do not support gay marriage and every single one of my gay friends knows this and they are still my friends... They want a civil union fine, marriage is between a man and a woman.
ACNYPhoto wrote:
Every RRS post keeps going the same way, it's gotten quite old.... I too do not support gay marriage and every single one of my gay friends knows this and they are still my friends... They want a civil union fine, marriage is between a man and a woman.
Since it is the USA you are obviously entitled to your opinions - yea. I will of course make a note not to buy photography equipment from you.
jbiernat wrote:
Google RRS gay marriage or RRS Prop 8. The flicker discussion mentions a donation of approx. $16,000. This is a polarizing subject and I feel it does not have to be. If ANY couple is in a union with one another they should have the same rights as a married couple. However the definition of marriage does not have to change to grant these rights to everyone. If RRS did donate to Prop. 8 I don't see a problem with it. I commend them for standing up for their beliefs.
"Standing up for their beliefs" is fine. But this is not what Joe Johnson is doing. I would defend Joe Johnson's right to believe gay marriage is wrong, and to teach his children it's wrong, and to try and convince anyone who'll listen that it's wrong. But I do NOT believe he has a right to try and make a law requiring everyone to be governed by his beliefs. And in fact, the most recent court ruling (by a Republican judge appointed by Bush Sr. I might add) supported this. Simply, one group of people cannot be denied, without due process, a privilege extended to another group.
I like to keep politics out of business. If liberals refuse to do business with Republicans, then you might as well stop using telephones, most media, and any form of energy you don't generate yourself. But this isn't politics, it's either bigotry, an attempt at theocracy, or both.
On another note, RRS does make fine products, but my most recent purchase (several weeks ago, before I knew anything about the gay marriage issue) went back to them. I ordered a BH-30. I was willing to pay double the price of a functionally similar head from Photoclam or Giottos for 2 reasons - to get a head that was no-questions-asked trouble-free, and to support the USA apple-pie small businessman. Turned out the head was, in my opinon, mediocre. The Giottos head I wound up with is better - not just better for the money, but just better, period. A tiny bit heavier and time will tell about durability, but so far seems better. (If anyone wants details of this opinion they can PM me). So don't consider it an article of faith that RRS is the best....Show more →
I too do not support gay marriage and every single one of my gay friends knows this and they are still my friends.
of course, if they aren't married they are obviously still single
Your claim reminds me of the old excusatory statement "Some of my best friends are ______" which usually follows or leads into a put down of the specified group.
Thanks, Joe, for coming back to state your position. I'm not going to try to change your mind, but I do have to call foul on this claim:
"I am not anti-gay and very much support equal treatment/employment/housing/education/etc. for all people regardless of sexual orientation, race or religion. Thankfully, we already have laws in place here in California that provide that protection."
This simply isn't true -- and it's even less true in most of the country than it is in California. Were such protections available (and enforced), this wouldn't be quite as acute an issue. Furthermore, most of the religious right organizations that poured so much money into Proposition 8 are actively working to suppress gay civil rights in other arenas of public life.
When the LDS church announces its full support for civil union and other civil rights protections for gays and lesbians and actually puts some of their considerable millions behind that support (perhaps along with some of your own direct support), I will consider taking seriously your claim that you support gay rights but just want to maintain a "traditional" definition of marriage. Until then, it sounds like a dodge and a rationalization.
Joe, thanks for your up-frontness in this matter...I know some people are prickly about the line between advertising and forum participation, but I like it when there's an actual person behind the company that makes some of the most beloved gear on this board.
ACNYPhoto, my question here isn't whether or not one agrees with gay marriage, but whether one agrees with allowing religious groups to use legislation to subject everyone to their beliefs. How would you feel if Hassidic Jews started a movement to pass a law preventing the sale of pork products in NY, and the owners B&H donated a lot of money to the cause? I don't eat pork products for the same reason the owners of B&H don't, but such an action would not make me inclined to shop there in the future...
Also, what did you mean by the assertion that all RRS threads degenerate into this? I've been reading most tripod/head-related threads on this forum since before Prop8 and this is the first I've ever heard of it...
I really did not intend to start a political discussion. My apology to the forum for that. I hope they can quickly resolve their ordering issues. With patience you can reach them by phone. Maybe it's time to end this thread.
adam613 wrote:
Joe, thanks for your up-frontness in this matter...I know some people are prickly about the line between advertising and forum participation, but I like it when there's an actual person behind the company that makes some of the most beloved gear on this board.
ACNYPhoto, my question here isn't whether or not one agrees with gay marriage, but whether one agrees with allowing religious groups to use legislation to subject everyone to their beliefs. How would you feel if Hassidic Jews started a movement to pass a law preventing the sale of pork products in NY, and the owners B&H donated a lot of money to the cause? I don't eat pork products for the same reason the owners of B&H don't, but such an action would not make me inclined to shop there in the future...
Also, what did you mean by the assertion that all RRS threads degenerate into this? I've been reading most tripod/head-related threads on this forum since before Prop8 and this is the first I've ever heard of it......Show more →
It's their free right to do so if they wish, after having lived in and worked for the government of NYC, I have other issues with the Orthodox/.Hassid community but that doesn't stop me from purchasing from B&H or Adorama. I don't agree with their views, as I'm sure they don't agree with mine. I live by the agree to disagree and move on with our lives...
And yes, numerous threads have gone the way this one has, I'm here to talk gear, not politics...
I have a good friend who is a Gay LDS from Utah and he opposes gay marriage... Yea, he's confused but it's his right... lol! He's moved back to Utah after living in NYC and has no problems with his open sexual preference.
ACNYPhoto wrote:
It's their free right to do so if they wish, after having lived in and worked for the government of NYC, I have other issues with the Orthodox/.Hassid community but that doesn't stop me from purchasing from B&H or Adorama. I don't agree with their views, as I'm sure they don't agree with mine. I live by the agree to disagree and move on with our lives...
The problem is, if such a thing were to happen, you would no longer have the option of agreeing to disagree...they'd have made your decision for you, based on their religious beliefs that you may or may not share...
Todd Adamson wrote:
Thanks for the info. I won't get into the gay marriage debate, except to say that I disagree with the Mormons' stance on it and I also think it's a poor idea for a business to donate money to specific and polarizing causes.
Is that any cause that you don't specifically agree with? What about the causes that you do agree with...could they not be considered polarizing to a different point of view? I won't let something like this dissuade me from buying from RRS any time soon. Now, if RRS just happens to donate to the ACLU, all bets are off...
Mike Ganz wrote:
Is that any cause that you don't specifically agree with?
Of course not. I have a business, and I would not consider donating money in the name of my business to any political cause or campaign, not even the ones I would vote for.
At any rate, it's been clarified that it wasn't a business donation, but a personal one. For now, I will not worry about this matter, and will continue to buy RRS products. Some will say that's rationalizing, and some won't. I do agree that Joe is being somewhat disingenuous (as are others) when he tries to say he has no problem with gay rights and it's simply a semantic matter of the definition of marriage. It's thinly veiled bigotry. But if I didn't allow myself to buy products from bigoted people, my life would likely be consumed with tedious research, and I'd probably have to get rid of half the shit I own.
I'm glad Joe posted here in attempt to clarify his donation and his position. I think he is misguided and hypocritical, whether he realizes it or not, and I disagree with him completely. I also respect his right to his own opinion, his products, and his willingness to come into this thread and engage people.
yes it was clarified as such. but really what difference does that make? because its 1 degree of rationalization seperation away?
i think we're all misguided and hypocritical. and i still respect you all (at least to a point) and not so sure about myself though being brought up an irish catholic and all
i really think we should get back to the standard arguements of photography. they are far more fun and unproductive
Beni wrote:
Do you lot not buy from Alien Bees either as a matter of interest?
Great question. You may or may not recall that I started a thread about that, in which Paul Buff posted, and which was eventually locked. I rarely use strobes anymore, but my lights are Buff (White Lightnings). Don't know if I would buy from that company again....probably not.
At any rate, I would favorably contrast Joe's posts here with Paul's in that other thread. Paul Buff seems like kind of a dumbass. That was a significant disappointment to me, considering the products are good, and the customer service is among the best I've ever encountered with any company.
