p.5 #1 · Do only Canon users put their gear under (extreme) scrutiny?
Its probably easier to be over critical about camera performance if you are using a high resolution sensor. Yes, Nikon for example do produce highly detailed sensors, but you have to stump up much more money than Canonites do to obtain them, and so there will be fewer critics!
I have been pleased with the 5D2, but there again I photograph relatively static scenes and so don't test the AF much. I have occasionally seen banding in shadows, but there again the effect is as nothing compared to the film grain I had to put up with in the old days, particularly when using pushed film.
The 7D is proving more of an issue for me. Seems to me that the relatively extreme pixel density is recording enormous amounts of detail, and its showing up even the smallest deficiencies of focus and technique on large prints. I can tame the 7D, but at much higher shutter speeds than I would usually choose, or firmly bolted to a tripod and focussed exactly with Live View. Perhaps its just me?
To sum up, for me extreme scrutiny becomes more likely the more megapixels we have. I never judged my 40D as carefully as I do my 7D. God knows how picky we will be when the 30/40+ megapixel sensors arrive.
p.5 #2 · Do only Canon users put their gear under (extreme) scrutiny?
David Baldwin wrote:
The 7D is proving more of an issue for me. Seems to me that the relatively extreme pixel density is recording enormous amounts of detail, and its showing up even the smallest deficiencies of focus and technique on large prints. I can tame the 7D, but at much higher shutter speeds than I would usually choose, or firmly bolted to a tripod and focussed exactly with Live View. Perhaps its just me?
Another way to look at it is this... The higher MP filters out the average photographers from the great ones?
p.5 #4 · Do only Canon users put their gear under (extreme) scrutiny?
alundeb wrote:
But because of the harsh climate that arises when someone seeks accurate knowledge about what the limitations are, I no longer want to contribute when people ask. (Like Daan B recently did.) Your censorship here on FM, about what deserves to be discussed or not, is working. Bye.
+1. I think a true picture has emerged of who the real trolls are, the ones who find every post possible to repeat their insulting mantras, a forum where the ones who shout loudest are the ones whose opinion is taken as accurate for all the lack of any scientific proof. Most of all, the most pathetic thing of all, the hateful assumption that if it is good enough for me and the way I work it is then good enough for the rest of the world and every other genre of photography. The arrogance is astounding.
p.5 #5 · Do only Canon users put their gear under (extreme) scrutiny?
AGeoJO wrote:
I am not looking for any excuse for Canon and nothing against folks that try to get to the bottom of some banding issues, some ghost images on their (underexposed) images, etc. Frankly, I have not seen any issues on images taken with my Canon gear under normal shooting and processing conditions. My question is, is this behavior typical with Canon users only or users of other brands, especially Nikon users, scrutinize their gear to approximately the same level as Canon users do also? I have spent a fair amount of time there in the last 2 years but I have not seen anything like it before there, although it doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't exist.
This is an honest question and I am not talking folks down that try to do this excersize as almost like a, for lack of a better word, "sport"? I am just curious... To each his/her own, I guess.
Your initial, unspoken assumption is invalid. FM members has very little in common with the typical camera owner other than the fact that they both own a camera. The "typical" user has never heard of FM, pixel-peeping, banding, or lens calibration. It would never even occur to them to send their camera or lenses back to Canon or Nikon unless some new error message told them to do so. Very few companies in any industry encourage or even allow end users to send their purchase directly back to the manufacturer, so most users don't even realize it is a possibility. They use their camera with expectations well below what even the worst body/lens combination can produce and in general they are happy with the results. When they are not happy they realize that their own lack of skill results in more bad pictures than can ever be blamed on the the camera.
The typical user owns one camera and one lens, and is completely unfamiliar with the concept that lenses have good copies or bad copies. They make 4x6 prints at the local WalMart and put them in an album that is only viewed at Christmas when relatives visit. If they are a bit more sophisticated, they post them on Facebook (200x150 res) where the rest of the world ignores them.
So to answer your question....No, it is not typical for a camera owner to scrutinize the gear or the results like FM users do....be it Canon or any other company.
p.5 #6 · Do only Canon users put their gear under (extreme) scrutiny?
nathanlake wrote:
They use their camera with expectations well below what even the worst body/lens combination can produce and in general they are happy with the results. When they are not happy they realize that their own lack of skill results in more bad pictures than can ever be blamed on the the camera.
I wouldn't say this is the case, they already have high expectations from P&S with infinite DOF. And I don't think it is so true to say that lack of skill is by any means the main reason for poor pics, it doesn't take the micro focus alignment to off by much to make a mess of things.
p.5 #8 · Do only Canon users put their gear under (extreme) scrutiny?
skibum5 wrote:
I wouldn't say this is the case, they already have high expectations from P&S with infinite DOF. And I don't think it is so true to say that lack of skill is by any means the main reason for poor pics, it doesn't take the micro focus alignment to off by much to make a mess of things.
Spoken like a a true FM'er. This is not even an arguable point. The most important factor in producing good pictures is the skill of the photographer, not the gear.
p.5 #9 · Do only Canon users put their gear under (extreme) scrutiny?
JustinThyme wrote:
I dont think its Brand related, its just a certain type of personality you will usually find in the engineer type. Im one of them. I dont try and push things to go beyond and complain in the least. I do pixel peep as I want the best possible output regardless because one never knows how the image may be used. If something isnt working for me I dont complain and whine about it, I just get rid of it and move on. I usually find the bashers to be fanboys of another brand or as the monkey said dont produce images or may not even own the gear. I was just reading a back and forth over a 24-70 vs 24-105 and the poster bashed the 24-70 derating it then in his last sentence said he never used one. How can you give such a strong opnion on something you have never laid eyes on let alone used? There is an awful lot of this that goes on and seems to be the brunt of it, most serious togs dont get into a pi$$ing match over gear, they know what works for them, offer their opinions and leave it at that....Show more →
I think a lot of it is the non-engineer/science types simply aren't used to seeing people dig into things, discuss things, investigate things and they falsely think that if someone is mentioning some defect that they are also necessarily utterly bashing the entire product as a whole and they aren't used to the concept of being able to like something a lot and yet still be able to discuss problems with it and find ways to try to improve things for the next generation (many can't even bare to think that something they by might even have a single flaw of any sort, especially not if the item is from their favorite brand). I think many also don't realize the types of discussions that go on in marketing meetings and maybe if they did they wouldn't go to the ends of the earth to defend the honor of their favorite brand from any negative mention whatsoever.
Also, unless people do make a huge stink about something, it will NEVER ever get fixed and the company won't care a whit, some a lot of the screaming and whining is just because a few polite little side note mentions will mean that you can forget about the issue every being paid attention to.
Also, these gear forums are gear forums and people just present a very, very narrow image of themselves in their postings to them and yet people naturally try to extrapolate this to their entire behaviors but this likely gives a very misleading impression.
p.5 #10 · Do only Canon users put their gear under (extreme) scrutiny?
alundeb wrote:
But because of the harsh climate that arises when someone seeks accurate knowledge about what the limitations are, I no longer want to contribute when people ask. (Like Daan B recently did.) Your censorship here on FM, about what deserves to be discussed or not, is working. Bye.
+ 2
And that's a real shame, because I really value your opinion on this alundeb. It's sad to see what has become of FM lately
p.5 #11 · Do only Canon users put their gear under (extreme) scrutiny?
I am glad I can glean what I need and purchase what fits my limited taste. Normally after I have shot photos, I find they look a lot better after i revisit them later, much later.
I shoot Canon and I must say I have been pleased by my gear and the photos produced. I don't necessarily think it's Canon users but rather people being people. Canon, as others have stated, was the most popular camera at one point. As we all know, Nikon is changing that as we type.
I find the best photographers, not overly critical, but rather helpful. I have gotten much help via PM, away from self-ordained professionals.
p.5 #13 · Do only Canon users put their gear under (extreme) scrutiny?
Beni wrote:
+1. I think a true picture has emerged of who the real trolls are, the ones who find every post possible to repeat their insulting mantras, a forum where the ones who shout loudest are the ones whose opinion is taken as accurate for all the lack of any scientific proof. Most of all, the most pathetic thing of all, the hateful assumption that if it is good enough for me and the way I work it is then good enough for the rest of the world and every other genre of photography. The arrogance is astounding.
+1billion and still counting, Beni and Alundeb - you've said it all
p.5 #14 · Do only Canon users put their gear under (extreme) scrutiny?
skibum5 wrote:
I think a lot of it is the non-engineer/science types simply aren't used to seeing people dig into things, discuss things, investigate things and they falsely think that if someone is mentioning some defect that they are also necessarily utterly bashing the entire product as a whole and they aren't used to the concept of being able to like something a lot and yet still be able to discuss problems with it and find ways to try to improve things for the next generation (many can't even bare to think that something they by might even have a single flaw of any sort, especially not if the item is from their favorite brand). I think many also don't realize the types of discussions that go on in marketing meetings and maybe if they did they wouldn't go to the ends of the earth to defend the honor of their favorite brand from any negative mention whatsoever.
Also, unless people do make a huge stink about something, it will NEVER ever get fixed and the company won't care a whit, some a lot of the screaming and whining is just because a few polite little side note mentions will mean that you can forget about the issue every being paid attention to.
Also, these gear forums are gear forums and people just present a very, very narrow image of themselves in their postings to them and yet people naturally try to extrapolate this to their entire behaviors but this likely gives a very misleading impression.
p.5 #15 · Do only Canon users put their gear under (extreme) scrutiny?
Yes, I see where you are all coming from.
All I can suggest is that you get yoursef a simple/basic camera-lens combination such as EF 50mm f/1.0 +1DsMkII and then go forth and practice photography as an exploratory journey.
Come back here 9 years from now and show us what is that you have learned.
As George W. Bush likes to say " Nonum prematur in annum".
p.5 #16 · Do only Canon users put their gear under (extreme) scrutiny?
PetKal wrote:
Yes, I see where you are all coming from.
All I can suggest is that you get yoursef a simple/basic camera-lens combination such as EF 50mm f/1.0 +1DsMkII and then go forth and practice photography as an exploratory journey.
Come back here 9 years from now and show us what is that you have learned.
As George W. Bush likes to say " Nonum prematur in annum".
p.5 #18 · Do only Canon users put their gear under (extreme) scrutiny?
PetKal wrote:
Yes, I see where you are all coming from.
All I can suggest is that you get yoursef a simple/basic camera-lens combination such as EF 50mm f/1.0 +1DsMkII and then go forth and practice photography as an exploratory journey.
Come back here 9 years from now and show us what is that you have learned.
As George W. Bush likes to say " Nonum prematur in annum".
pretty presumptuous....
(for the record it actually so happens that I had but a 50mm 1.8 the entire first year I shot with a DSLR and then only a 24mm 2.8 and 200mm f/5.6 added to the mix for the next ten!)
p.5 #20 · Do only Canon users put their gear under (extreme) scrutiny?
Ive read these forums for around 5 years now and often have been amazed at how many will change cameras the minute the next model is out. I have learned a lot from the technical people on here but at the same time Ive also thought some of the pixel peeping is way over the top. I found the megapixel jump from my 300D to 40D was great, however the jump to 15 megapixel meant more noise and other issues I had to deal with. Not complaining I just worked it out.
The main thing I have found with many everyday camera users is that they are quite obsessed with megapixels (which I'm sure canon and many other brands know), then what happens is they go out and buy something like a 7D and proudly boast that they have the best. then you catch up with them and they are bagging the camera because they have no Idea how to deal with the resolution.
The saddest thing I see online is people bagging cameras even before they are in the shop, the 60D for instance has had a lot of flak in the canon online site. yet I'm sure it will have its place in the market and people will be very happy with it.
And while some of the pixel peepers in here have produced great work I see as many online who have very little talent at all and that's only when you can get them to produce a site for you to look at.
lastly, the funny thing is that Ive entered many photographic competitions over the years and had as much success with shots from my 300D as any of my later cameras.
Its nice to have the best gear but it wont make you a better photographer or give you artistic talent
