p.4 #1 · 15 of 335,000 images... NCA Cheer Nationals
jordanwd wrote:
sorry i haven't read through all the posts so don't know if anyone had the same opinion..... & nothing against the photography which is by all accounts excellent for the action provided.. but posting shots of those young girls with all that makeup on contourted in those cheerleading positions ..is well... just wrong... teenage/HS/college, pro cheerleaders for sure.... but posting images of these young, young girls...well - is just wrong... sorry if no one agrees....
peace,
-jd
I was sort of inclined to let you have your say and respect your right to say it, but your argument sort of falls apart in the end. If your issue is with underage girls and the posting of such being "wrong" and your belief were to stay true and consistent in that belief whether justifed or not, then why would you add that the posting of teenage or HS girls is okay or "right" Underage is underage... FOR SURE.
p.4 #2 · 15 of 335,000 images... NCA Cheer Nationals
High School Cheerleaders rarely go to the extreme that these "pay to belong" teams do.
I agree with part of this statement, but I wouldn't use the term "rarely". High school competitors will wear makeup, but far more moderately than their all-star peers.
Why can't the judges simply say... excessive makeup at this competition will result in points LOST? Seems to me that it needs to start at that level to really make a difference. Facials are still excessive too. We were told that the athletes are moving more towards genuine smiles, but I didn't see too much of that.
This "makeup" schema has been around far longer than I have been covering cheerleading, and for me it started with all-star almost nine years ago. I'm surprised none of you cheer dads haven't spoken up, but for those who have been around cheerleading, they will tell you it is the moms who are the fanatics about the make-up. Some moms go way over the top with the makeup bit. Some of them have aggressive/competitive attitudes about how their teams should look on stage, thus what you see on stage is the end result. At the high school level, there are no rules about makeup. However, I can't speak about rules for stage presence at the all-star level since I stopped covering it eight years ago. Facials are important on some score sheets (depending on the cheer company and their assorted rubics) for all-stars but serve no purpose for high school. Again, however, you still see exaggerated facial emotes in high school because well...that's what they learned in camp.
contourted in those cheerleading positions ..is well... just wrong... teenage/HS/college, pro cheerleaders for sure....
Huh? I get the first part, but I don't get the second part. What are you saying? I have a feeling once you make your statement more clear, you are going to dislike how I am going to respond.
The makeup however creeps me out and it boggles my mind that a parent would want a picture of thier daughter when they look like this. I guess one has to be around it to "get it".
See above. Paul has done well in capturing the "stage presence", no matter what non-cheerleader fans think. However, if you spoke with industry folks about makeup, you may hear the term "necessary evil" as part of the response.
One observation though is, it seems that the older the competitors, the less they paint them; any reason for that?
1) For all-stars, I guess. 2) For high school, it's a non-issue. I doubt the cheer dads want to even answer this one. You really have to talk to the moms. (Side bar: I know HS cheer coaches who quit coaching because of overzealous parents.) For you non-cheerleader readers out there, take notice of the following axiom: high school cheer moms are bad, all-star cheer moms are worse.
High schoolers are a bit more toned down than the Allstar level and it would'nt hurt my feelings if they (allstars) mellowed out a bit on make up.
But any suggestion to the fact that there is something wrong with posting these images is rediculus.
Jeff's response to jd's comment is correct. Maybe jd would find girl's and women's gymnastics offensive, too. And ATP women's volleyball. And dance for that matter. All of these sports have peak action moments in time measured in milliseconds. Give photographers credit who know how to catch the execution of these skills as they are being performed correctly. I'll give jd the benefit of the doubt. He needs to become educated with cheerleading, that's all.
p.4 #3 · 15 of 335,000 images... NCA Cheer Nationals
keisi wrote:
Wow, those are some amazing shots. But I have to agree with James, the makeup is awful; and those girls are way to skinny. But still the shots are great.
+++
Love your shots, technically. Real problem with what they're representing
p.4 #6 · 15 of 335,000 images... NCA Cheer Nationals
There's nothing wrong with Paul or anyone else taking and posting these images, they did nothing illegal but as I said earlier if I were to have a couple of these girls in a studio dressed like this and with some of the poses then I could end up in front of a judge. It could be a totally innocent shoot but it doesn't matter. Beauty pageants are the same way with these idiot parents making these little girls look like freaking hookers so that's where this cheerleading makeup stuff comes from IMO. I still cannot believe that cheering is so big and I thought it was dying out. I have a few catholic grade schools around me and only one has any cheerleading squads, all the girls play their own sports now unlike when I was in school.
p.4 #7 · 15 of 335,000 images... NCA Cheer Nationals
Paul, you must have some REALLY nice gear to be able to get these kinds of images.
Seriously, I thought I lived in the bible belt!! Wow, a few are really taking this thread down a strange and somewhat disturbing path.
I must admit that I'm not a cheer dad; never have been and never will be. However, I've always wondered if part of the reason the make-up is so heavy and facials so exaggerated is because of the very "stage presence" Orlan briefly touched on in his post. It would seem like a fairly logical explanation to me (again, I am not a cheer parent, so I have no clue). I would admit, too, that I don't doubt for a second that overzealous cheer moms have something to do with this. There are certainly a few of those at these events.
As shooters at these events, we're shooting close to the stage (sometimes right at the edge) and can zoom in tight on these athletes. So, you're seeing this stuff (make-up and facials) up close and really like no one else would be seeing it during the competition. The judges are often quite a ways back. I always thought of this like a theatrical production...the make-up needs to be heavy and facial expressions need to be exaggerated so people in the back of the venue (in this case, the judges) can see them. If these girls wore absolutely NO make-up, their faces would appear rather ghostly to most in the venue.
I have sung in barbershop choruses and quartets and we put make-up on rather heavily when performing. Sure, it looked goofy off stage and up close, but for those watching in the venue it looked like we had some color and life on our faces. (this probably helps explain to Paul, Dan and Jeff why I broke out singing "16 tons" while we were loading the truck in Dallas! )
p.4 #8 · 15 of 335,000 images... NCA Cheer Nationals
Very well put Scott. As a cheer dad, when complaining about the makeup, I have been told by well respected coaches that did not like tons of makeup, that the reasons you listed are very true.
Now, on to some more of the real topic here... I showed my wife the images here and all she could say was.."why can't you get shots like that?" I have tons of practice to do and countless shots to start on my path to being remotely close to being half as good on my best day... We have a few more events real soon that I get to practice at. Keep the amazing images coming so I can see what I am striving for (from the photo side...).
p.4 #9 · 15 of 335,000 images... NCA Cheer Nationals
John P Mulgrew wrote:
............... I still cannot believe that cheering is so big and I thought it was dying out. .
This is not cheerleading in the sense that you may think it is. It is more about stunts and tumbling than it is about cheers. Here is a youtube video to give you an idea (not my daughter's team but same company): &feature=related
Now imagine getting the results like the OP posted! I can't even figure out how they pick what to shoot. My advantage is I am capturing just my daughter and I usually know where she is in the routine (notice I did say "usually").
I would agree with previous poster that maybe the excessive make up is so that it can be seen from a distance. Just something I dont' like.
p.4 #11 · 15 of 335,000 images... NCA Cheer Nationals
P Alesse wrote:
Scott... never even thought about that. Brilliant insight.
What, that part where I mentioned how you get such great images because of the gear you use? Thank you, sir.
Mar 04, 2010 at 02:42 PM
glort Offline • • • • [X]
p.4 #12 · 15 of 335,000 images... NCA Cheer Nationals
jordanwd wrote:
sorry i haven't read through all the posts so don't know if anyone had the same opinion..... & nothing against the photography which is by all accounts excellent for the action provided.. but posting shots of those young girls with all that makeup on contourted in those cheerleading positions ..is well... just wrong... teenage/HS/college, pro cheerleaders for sure.... but posting images of these young, young girls...well - is just wrong... sorry if no one agrees....
peace,
-jd
You sound like some sort of religious Zealot and possibly someone with unhealthy thoughts for reading into this more than the innocent fun it is.
There is NOTHING wrong with these pictures, unfortunately I am no where near as positive or sure about your state of mind.
Its people with maligned opinions like this that create the impression every person with a camera is some sort of weirdo or a parent taking a pic of their kid having fun in the tub is a pedophile. The people that go on with that sort of rubbish make me sick to the stomach.
The only thing wrong here is what you are saying and insinuating.
I don't agree with you and I doubt anyone else of sound and reasonable mind will.
p.4 #13 · 15 of 335,000 images... NCA Cheer Nationals
Pop Warner cheerleading does not allow any makeup at any level. It's always funny to see the cheerleaders flip out when they see our all-star samples with makeup on.
p.4 #14 · 15 of 335,000 images... NCA Cheer Nationals
glort wrote:
You sound like some sort of religious Zealot and possibly someone with unhealthy thoughts for reading into this more than the innocent fun it is.
There is NOTHING wrong with these pictures, unfortunately I am no where near as positive or sure about your state of mind.
Its people with maligned opinions like this that create the impression every person with a camera is some sort of weirdo or a parent taking a pic of their kid having fun in the tub is a pedophile. The people that go on with that sort of rubbish make me sick to the stomach.
The only thing wrong here is what you are saying and insinuating.
I don't agree with you and I doubt anyone else of sound and reasonable mind will.
p.4 #15 · 15 of 335,000 images... NCA Cheer Nationals
Scott Sewell wrote:
As shooters at these events, we're shooting close to the stage (sometimes right at the edge) and can zoom in tight on these athletes. So, you're seeing this stuff (make-up and facials) up close and really like no one else would be seeing it during the competition. The judges are often quite a ways back. I always thought of this like a theatrical production...the make-up needs to be heavy and facial expressions need to be exaggerated so people in the back of the venue (in this case, the judges) can see them. If these girls wore absolutely NO make-up, their faces would appear rather ghostly to most in the venue. ...Show more →
Scott, you got it here... and cripes people, why can't we stick to the photographic purpose of the thread... we don't need to hijack every cheer thread off course with these arguments all the time. It is what it is, lots of people don't like the level of makeup, but that isn't the purpose of the thread. Paul, again, fantastic stuff.
Underage is underage... FOR SURE.
Wow, a few are really taking this thread down a strange and somewhat disturbing path.
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