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Archive 2010 · RG on 1D Mk IV autofocus performance

  
 
Pixel Perfect
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p.10 #1 · RG on 1D Mk IV autofocus performance


dolina wrote:
Don't forget the button that switches from JPEG to RAW.


That's about as useful as "tits on a bull" as they like to say down under.



Feb 12, 2010 at 05:19 AM
Fat Dave
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p.10 #2 · RG on 1D Mk IV autofocus performance


Many people seem to think because Rob finds the camera not focusing perfectly in some situations that he is implying it is incapable of taking good pictures.

Obviously he is not. In fact he clearly points out that in some circumstances, the camera takes a tight grip on critical focus and maintains it throughout the sequence, superior to how any other body performs. It's obviously quite capable in many circumstances, and he makes that point repeatedly.

Others seem to think that because Rob finds the camera not focusing perfectly in some situations, that this is some sort of insult to them personally, their skill level, their choice of gear, their sexual prowess, god knows what.

This is one man testing gear in his environment, using his methodology, and reporting his results. Nothing more, nothing less. He doesn't "slam" the camera. He reports in which situations he was able to get it to work well, and in which situations it struggled.

I'm a Canon shooter through-and-through, but if there's an issue that needs to be looked at, then why not look at it? I didn't believe it was POSSIBLE that the 5D2 could have a low-ISO cross-hatch noise problem in certain situations. Then I did some more thorough testing, with my own camera, using my own methodology, and lo and behold, low-ISO cross-hatch noise...

Somehow, this discovery didn't make me less of a man.

Do I hate Canon now? nope. Will I switch brands and go to the Dark Side? nope. Overall, I still think that Canon has the best tools for what I do, and by and large, I'm extremely happy. But I do think they need to fix some stuff. Nothing more, nothing less. None of the bodies are perfect - they all have their own strengths and weaknesses. Exploring these strengths and weaknesses help all of us in our purchasing decisions, as well as helping guide the manufacturers. I'm confused why this article has caused such a backlash from so many.

I'll just copy and paste my reply from the other thread:

-----

"Regarding the Nikon ads, I'll tell you that RobG is no Nikon fanboy. He shoots a ton with Canon still, as he has for eons. He's been playing with that nice fat 400/2.8 IS lately...

Secondly, if you've ever had the opportunity to talk with him, you'll know very quickly that he's an extremely analytical thinker. You may not find his tests to be the most scientific ever devised, as he devises tests that suit what he shoots. His goal, as with most people, is to find the best tool for the job. One of the best ways to try to establish which tool is best is to take a couple to a "job site", and try them, to see which one performs better.

Wickerprints (and others) noted that comparing different resolution cameras at 100% to compare focus were biased in favour of the lower-resolution camera. This is absolutely correct. However, as RobG noted in his article, "The EOS-1D Mark IV, on the other hand, produces many more frames that are too soft to use for anything, no matter how sweet the moment". It's not a matter of a slight bit of misfocus that may be unnoticeable on a lower-resolution sensor. It's a pure miss.

I had a chance to talk with Rob when he came back from his first tests of the 1D4 w/1.06 in the states. It's not a camera he dislikes inherently - in fact I think he WANTS it to be good. But when I asked him about the focus versus the multi-coloured "dot" Mark 3's, he asked me "well, how long have you got?" He has tested it extensively enough in his environment to know when it is more or less likely to misfocus (right down to what singlet colours perform best and worst, in myriad situations and lighting), and he knows how that compares to every other tool he's tried.

He's a skilled tradesman looking for the best tool for the job."

-----



Feb 12, 2010 at 05:30 AM
keithreeder
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p.10 #3 · RG on 1D Mk IV autofocus performance


Fat Dave wrote:
Many people seem to think because Rob finds the camera not focusing perfectly in some situations that he is implying it is incapable of taking good pictures.

Hang on: when, half way down the first page (having said very little of any factual note beforehand) he says:

If this is the best the company could muster, after the autofocus debacle of the EOS-1D Mark III, then it's official: Canon has lost their autofocus mojo.

then I think it's extremely reasonable for folk to take issue with the tone and content of the "review", because that little throwaway phrase will be interpreted as meaning exactly what you suggest RG isn't saying.



Feb 12, 2010 at 05:52 AM
Tim Ashton
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p.10 #4 · RG on 1D Mk IV autofocus performance


Pixel Perfect wrote:
That's about as useful as "tits on a bull" as they like to say down under.



Behave yourself Whayne
this is a family forum

Tim



Feb 12, 2010 at 06:05 AM
Fat Dave
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p.10 #5 · RG on 1D Mk IV autofocus performance


keithreeder wrote:
Hang on: when, half way down the first page (having said very little of any factual note beforehand) he says:

then I think it's extremely reasonable for folk to take issue with the tone and content of the "review", because that little throwaway phrase will be interpreted as meaning exactly what you suggest RG isn't saying.


So would you say that Rob's quote means:

a) The 1D4 is incapable of taking good pictures.
b) The 1D4 does not focus perfectly in some situations.

I stand by my assessment that even this one sentence taken out of the context of the article points more towards "b" than towards "a".

Fixating on one quote doesn't help understanding the entire picture. What if one focuses on these quotes:

"In just over a month with the new model we've seen that the EOS-1D Mark IV's AF system behaves almost nothing like that of the EOS-1D Mark III. The changes that Canon's autofocus engineers have made are both broad and deep."

"The EOS-1D Mark IV's AF system shows signs of brilliance."

"We'll get right to the point. The EOS-1D Mark IV's AF system shows signs of brilliance. For example, while testing the camera's ability to track an athlete running straight towards the camera, the EOS-1D Mark IV locked onto the subject and would not let go, producing sequence after sequence of mostly in-focus pictures. In several rounds, 25 or more frames in a row were either perfectly focused or just slightly out.

On the same track and under effectively identical test conditions to those that tripped up the EOS-1D Mark III's AI Servo AF every time, the EOS-1D Mark IV nailed it."

Am I better off to fixate on any of these (or similar) quotes?

One needs to look at the ENTIRETY of the data presented to be able to accurately receive it's message.



Feb 12, 2010 at 06:40 AM
droopy1592
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p.10 #6 · RG on 1D Mk IV autofocus performance


The digital picture shot a sequence of soccer player shots coming toward the photo with a red jersey! They all look to be in focus. Looks overcast though, can't tell the intensity of the sun. Makes me think RG was purposely looking for specific situations where maybe the mkiv had difficulty focusing.

http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Canon-EOS-1D-Mark-IV-Digital-SLR-Camera-Review.aspx

Edited on Feb 12, 2010 at 07:07 AM · View previous versions



Feb 12, 2010 at 06:44 AM
alundeb
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p.10 #7 · RG on 1D Mk IV autofocus performance


Fat Dave wrote:
One needs to look at the ENTIRETY of the data presented to be able to accurately receive it's message.


Absolutely, agree 100%

What makes me wonder, is how all the points, good and bad, sums up like this:

"To sum up, our experience with the D3S' AF system is that it's trustworthy and dependable enough for us to be confident using it for peak action sports. Not perfect: it needs to be a bit faster off the line, in addition to the other quibbles we've mentioned. But it does work as needed most of the time, which is in stark contrast to the experience of the EOS-1D Mark IV in the last month."

Throughout the review, every weakness of the D3s is excused and put up as "improvements are still posssible", but every weakness of the 1DmkIV is hammered in as major faults.

The areas where he found the mk IV to be better than the D3s got no room in the conclusion.



Feb 12, 2010 at 06:51 AM
keithreeder
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p.10 #8 · RG on 1D Mk IV autofocus performance


Fat Dave wrote:
So would you say that Rob's quote means:

a) The 1D4 is incapable of taking good pictures.
b) The 1D4 does not focus perfectly in some situations..


Doesn't matter what I might think it means, my point is that it will be taken a "damning indictment" of the Mk IV's AF, whether or not that's it's "supposed" to communicate.

One needs to look at the ENTIRETY of the data presented to be able to accurately receive it's message.

That's actually precisely my point: we're in a world where glib soundbites carry weight, and this - as I called it up the page - "throwaway phrase" will be what people focus (pun intended) on.



Feb 12, 2010 at 06:55 AM
James Markus
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p.10 #9 · RG on 1D Mk IV autofocus performance


I am astounded at this thread. RG has a good reputation, and writes good reviews...deal with it. It is not like he said your girlfriend is ugly.


Feb 12, 2010 at 07:01 AM
droopy1592
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p.10 #10 · RG on 1D Mk IV autofocus performance


James Markus wrote:
I am astounded at this thread. RG has a good reputation, and writes good reviews...deal with it. It is not like he said your girlfriend is ugly.


Toyota had a great reputation too! We see where that is now...

Some people may/may not have agendas. Deal with it.


Edited on Feb 12, 2010 at 07:08 AM · View previous versions



Feb 12, 2010 at 07:07 AM
brainiac
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p.10 #11 · RG on 1D Mk IV autofocus performance


keithreeder wrote:
Hang on: when, half way down the first page (having said very little of any factual note beforehand) he says:
"If this is the best the company could muster, after the autofocus debacle of the EOS-1D Mark III, then it's official: Canon has lost their autofocus mojo.


...

keithreeder wrote:
That's actually precisely my point: we're in a world where glib soundbites carry weight, and this - as I called it up the page - "throwaway phrase" will be what people focus (pun intended) on.


I think that's called a 'self-fulfilling prophecy'.



Feb 12, 2010 at 07:07 AM
keithreeder
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p.10 #12 · RG on 1D Mk IV autofocus performance


Because I've referenced it twice?

Well there ya go!



One difference though - I'm not going to use it as a stick to beat the camera with.



Feb 12, 2010 at 07:11 AM
chesapeake
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p.10 #13 · RG on 1D Mk IV autofocus performance


With all due respect to Rob Galbraith, this was not even close to a well designed real world test. For starters, we can ask the question, "is Mike Sturk a better all around photographer than Rob Galbraith"? Is Mike Sturk mkoe familiar with the Nikon 1D3S than Rob Gailbraith is with the Canon 1D Mark IV? Why were there no absolute measurable benchmarks used? The very least he could have done to make it a bit less biased would have been to have one person shoot 1/2 the game with one camera and the second half with the other. Also, how in the world can one claim to be inpartial when accepting advertising from one of the companies (Nikon) being evaluated?? I think Rob Gailbraith has outlived his usefullness and credibility.


Feb 12, 2010 at 07:58 AM
Fat Dave
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p.10 #14 · RG on 1D Mk IV autofocus performance


chesapeake wrote:
I think Rob Gailbraith has outlived his usefullness and credibility.


Absolutely! After all, what was all that nonsense about him accurately reporting that the 1D Mark III AF system had problems when Canon and the pundits were proclaiming it fantastic. And then Canon was subsequently forced to fix (at least to their ability) the autofocus system on ALL 1D3's. DAMN HIM for being instrumental making everyone's 1D3 camera better! DAMN HIM for spending considerable time with Canon's engineers and technicians, demonstrating and testing the AF so that they could improve their product.

Forget all that. That was, like YEARS ago. What has he done for you lately? YOU SHOULD DEMAND MORE from this person you've never met. You should definitely question his motives and his ability to judge autofocus in his own environment, given his "shakey" background in this area.

... please...

I'm also a bit confused by your use of the phrase "with all due respect" when you conclude with your sentence as quoted above.



Feb 12, 2010 at 08:12 AM
Nill Toulme
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p.10 #15 · RG on 1D Mk IV autofocus performance


Fat Dave wrote:
...I'm also a bit confused by your use of the phrase "with all due respect" when you conclude with your sentence as quoted above.

Heh... "With all due respect" is one of my least favorite euphemisms; it means "I have no respect for you whatsoever, you ignorant knucklehead, and I'm gearing up to gut you, so get ready." Much less endearing than the much nicer Southernism "Bless his heart," as in "You know he drinks and beats his dear wife, bless his heart," or "You know he couldn't take an in focus shot at f/16 on a tripod, bless his heart." ;-)

Nill



Feb 12, 2010 at 08:26 AM
thw2
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p.10 #16 · RG on 1D Mk IV autofocus performance


Still waiting for Fat Dave to answer the point raised by alundeb here...

Fat Dave wrote:
One needs to look at the ENTIRETY of the data presented to be able to accurately receive it's message.


alundeb wrote:
Absolutely, agree 100%

What makes me wonder, is how all the points, good and bad, sums up like this:

"To sum up, our experience with the D3S' AF system is that it's trustworthy and dependable enough for us to be confident using it for peak action sports. Not perfect: it needs to be a bit faster off the line, in addition to the other quibbles we've mentioned. But it does work as needed most of the time, which is in stark contrast to the experience of the EOS-1D Mark IV in the last month."

Throughout the review, every weakness of the D3s is
...Show more



Feb 12, 2010 at 08:27 AM
Fat Dave
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p.10 #17 · RG on 1D Mk IV autofocus performance



Still waiting for Fat Dave to answer the point raised by alundeb here...


Why don't you pose your question to Rob? I don't work with him or for him, I'm just confused by such a backlash.

I'm guessing he's happier overall with the focus of the D3s than the 1D4 at this point.

Is it so impossible to believe that perhaps another camera has a better performing autofocus system for sports photography as tested?

Edited on Feb 12, 2010 at 08:36 AM · View previous versions



Feb 12, 2010 at 08:35 AM
datadump
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p.10 #18 · RG on 1D Mk IV autofocus performance


does he work for nikon?


Feb 12, 2010 at 08:38 AM
Fat Dave
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p.10 #19 · RG on 1D Mk IV autofocus performance


datadump wrote:
does he work for nikon?


Yes, yes he does. And so do I. And so do all the Canon engineers he's been working with. And so do all the people that give any credence to anything he says.

This is ridiculous. I think I'll go over to dpreview for some mature conversation...



Feb 12, 2010 at 08:40 AM
droopy1592
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p.10 #20 · RG on 1D Mk IV autofocus performance


It's like dpreview and their "it's a matter of taste" when choosing between D300s and 7D files. Everyone else saw a clear advantage. Had it been the other way around it would have been a "clear advantage" in favor of the D300s.


Feb 12, 2010 at 08:43 AM
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