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Archive 2010 · RG on 1D Mk IV autofocus performance

  
 
Yakim Peled
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p.19 #1 · RG on 1D Mk IV autofocus performance


n0b0 wrote:
What if all 5 cameras are from the same batch? These products usually go bad by the batch no?


It's certainly possible. That's why I said that we'll have to wait and see how Canon reacts. If to judge by the 1D3, we can expect their reply by mid summer.

Happy shooting,
Yakim.



Feb 14, 2010 at 07:58 AM
jkurkjia
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p.19 #2 · RG on 1D Mk IV autofocus performance


n0b0 wrote:
What if all 5 cameras are from the same batch? These products usually go bad by the batch no?


It's possible the five cameras are from the same first-run batch but without Canon's input there is no way of knowing for sure. However, the fact that there were AF issues with all five cameras doesn't bode well no matter how you look at the situation.

Disclaimer, I'm not saying there is a design problem with the AF system ... but, if there is an issue it will be difficult to solve and with us for a long time (consider how long it took to get the 1DmkIII's AF system "reasonably or border-line" healthy). That said, in general the chances are pretty good (though not necessarily great) a design problem can be fixed and there will be a nice ending to the story for everybody. If OTOH there are batch issues related to QC then it's entirely possible to wind up with a bad camera forever (assuming you didn't carefully test and return it for a refund) and there is no happy ending (for some individuals).

AFAIC there isn't solid evidence one way or another regarding the 1DmkIV's AF system at this moment in time and therefore I'm just going to wait until July before making a final purchasing decision.

Regards,

Joe Kurkjian



Feb 14, 2010 at 08:48 AM
thw2
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p.19 #3 · RG on 1D Mk IV autofocus performance


jkurkjia wrote:
AFAIC there isn't solid evidence one way or another regarding the 1DmkIV's AF system at this moment in time and therefore I'm just going to wait until July before making a final purchasing decision.


I'm sure this is not something Canon marketing department wants to hear.



Feb 14, 2010 at 09:20 AM
FretNoMore
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p.19 #4 · RG on 1D Mk IV autofocus performance


I'm sure Canon will sell every camera they can produce until July regardless of what's written here.


Feb 14, 2010 at 09:25 AM
jkurkjia
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p.19 #5 · RG on 1D Mk IV autofocus performance


thw2 wrote:
I'm sure this is not something Canon marketing department wants to hear.


I'm a very happy camper with my Canon gear and certain that their marketing department isn't too worried about me (small potatoes).

I think Canon's primary concern right this minute is loaning out enough 1DmkIV bodies and lenses at Winter Olympics to give the "appearance" that they still dominate sports photography.

Regards,

Joe Kurkjian



Feb 14, 2010 at 09:36 AM
Mr.Lindy
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p.19 #6 · RG on 1D Mk IV autofocus performance


What if these five cameras were tested by the same person?

I've avoided RG's site so to mimimize the hit counter. His blinky ads drive me nuts.

I was wondering, is RG using custom functions and sharing the ones he's picked in his 1D Mark IV observations?

Its apparent to me, the 1DMark IV has many satisfied users who are fighting back with images and sharing their custom functions:


https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/866879


RG's Alexa Rankings are up, infact way up just the past week:

http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/robgalbraith.com




n0b0 wrote:
What if all 5 cameras are from the same batch? These products usually go bad by the batch no?




Feb 14, 2010 at 09:47 AM
M Vers
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p.19 #7 · RG on 1D Mk IV autofocus performance


Yakim Peled wrote:
Of course I am. The three dots in the end should be the giveaway. That said, I do not share your view that just because he has Nikon ads in his site he must be prejudice against Canon.


Given your stance why would I think you were joking?

If that would be the case, Canon would be very stupid not to advertise in his site as well and "buy him back". It would cost them very little money compared to the huge damage he is doing to them.

You're assuming
A) RG doesn't have a contractual agreement (verbal/written) with Nikon
B) RG would accept Canon ad's in the first place



Feb 14, 2010 at 10:39 AM
Tom_W
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p.19 #8 · RG on 1D Mk IV autofocus performance


Yakim Peled wrote:
Of course I am. The three dots in the end should be the giveaway. That said, I do not share your view that just because he has Nikon ads in his site he must be prejudice against Canon. If that would be the case, Canon would be very stupid not to advertise in his site as well and "buy him back". It would cost them very little money compared to the huge damage he is doing to them.


That is exactly the problem here - whether true or not, it appears that RG has been bought by Nikon. It's his largest contributor. He should either kick Nikon off his site, or recuse himself from testing competitors' products. The conflict of interest is huge.

Not to mention that there are a large number of satisfied professionals out there already that are speaking highly of the camera and particularly its autofocus system. So, his findings stand weak against the plethora of evidence stating otherwise.

He's not damaging Canon so much as he's damaging his own reputation by the appearance of impropriety. He looks more like a two-bit politician than an objective reviewer.



Feb 14, 2010 at 11:05 AM
rscheffler
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p.19 #9 · RG on 1D Mk IV autofocus performance


Mr.Lindy wrote:
What if these five cameras were tested by the same person?

I've avoided RG's site so to mimimize the hit counter. His blinky ads drive me nuts.

I was wondering, is RG using custom functions and sharing the ones he's picked in his 1D Mark IV observations?

Its apparent to me, the 1DMark IV has many satisfied users who are fighting back with images and sharing their custom functions:

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/866879

RG's Alexa Rankings are up, infact way up just the past week:

http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/robgalbraith.com


His rankings were up at similar levels in October when the IV was announced and at the end of August/beginning of September when he posted his 7D first look. It's ironic that if he's such a Nikon advocate with all the ads, etc., that he's getting much of his traffic based on Canon news. I guess everyone is visiting to see how much he bashes the new Canon gear?? My feeling is there are too many conspiracy theorists on the various forums...

To answer your question about custom functions, since you don't want to bother reading the review:

In our testing, enabling C.Fn III-8-1 (Left/Right AF point), made no discernible difference, C.Fn III-8-3 (All 45 Points Area) was impossible to use for sports because the AF point jumps around continually (in other words, this setting is meant for another purpose) while C.Fn III-8-2 (Surrounding AF Points) brought a noticeable improvement in both AF system feel and the number of in-focus pictures. While the frame rate still slows down a fair bit, it's not as big a drop and it doesn't drop as often as when this option is disabled (this behaviour is linked to the Custom Function discussed next).

All but a handful of the downloadable pictures were taken with C.Fn III-8-2 (Surrounding AF Points) turned on.

For all the photos, C.Fn III-3 (AI Servo 1st/2nd Image Priority) was on its default of C.Fn III-3-0 (AF Priority/Tracking Priority). Set this way, the AF system is to give priority to focus acquisition, rather than drive speed, when it's newly activated just before shooting a picture, and then between frames in a sequence. The result can be a slowdown of the shooting rate when the camera's AF system thinks it needs more time.

With the EOS-1D Mark III set this way, it would continue to plow through at 10 fps almost regardless of scene or subject. In contrast, the EOS-1D Mark IV on the same setting will frequently slow the frame rate. This isn't necessarily a bad thing if it means better autofocus. Since the goal was to wring the best AF system performance out of the EOS-1D Mark IV we left this Custom Function set to C.Fn III-3-0 always.

We fiddled with C.Fn III-2 (AI Servo Tracking Sensitivity) a lot. This setting controls how the AF system handles interruptions such as a ref running through the AF point and temporarily blocking the player. We weren't really needing to experiment with it for that purpose, since right out of the box on C.Fn III-2-0 (standard), it does a nice job of ignoring subjects and objects that appear briefly between camera and subject, at least ones that are significantly defocused. This is how we think it ought to work by default, and it does.

We wanted to see, by setting C.Fn III-2 to slower or slow, if instances of the frontfocus shift that occurs - even with no closer subject within the AF point group - would be reduced or eliminated. No dice. There was zero change in the camera's tendency to immediately and rapidly drive the lens to a much closer focus distance when it shouldn't, since there is in fact nothing closer to focus on. This setting appears to have no bearing on the EOS-1D Mark IV's frontfocus problem, and as such all downloadable photos were shot with C.Fn III-2-0 (standard) dialed in.

Switching C.Fn III-4 (AI Servo Tracking Method) from its default of C.Fn III-4-0 (Main Focus Point Priority) to C.Fn III-4-1 (Continuous AF Track Priority) served to do only one thing: make it more likely the EOS-1D Mark IV's AF system would begin tracking the background at just the wrong moment. With the EOS-1D Mark III, we could never reconcile the user guide description of what this setting is supposed to do and how it actually behaved, at least when shooting fast-paced sports. The EOS-1D Mark IV's C.Fn III-4 is equally enigmatic. As such, all downloadable photos were shot on C.Fn III-4-0.



Feb 14, 2010 at 11:11 AM
rd4tile
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p.19 #10 · RG on 1D Mk IV autofocus performance


Yakim Peled wrote:
It would cost them very little money compared to the huge damage he is doing to them.

Happy shooting,
Yakim.



Huge damage? Is that why I'm seeing 2 to 3 posts a day from people that want to buy a MKIV and can't?



Feb 14, 2010 at 11:24 AM
garyvot
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p.19 #11 · RG on 1D Mk IV autofocus performance


Tom_W wrote:
That is exactly the problem here - whether true or not, it appears that RG has been bought by Nikon. It's his largest contributor. He should either kick Nikon off his site, or recuse himself from testing competitors' products. The conflict of interest is huge.

Not to mention that there are a large number of satisfied professionals out there already that are speaking highly of the camera and particularly its autofocus system. So, his findings stand weak against the plethora of evidence stating otherwise.

He's not damaging Canon so much as he's damaging his own reputation by the appearance of impropriety. He
...Show more

I think the "problem" is the lack of critical thinking that allows people to assume that some impropriety exists without objective evidence to prove it.

Do we know for sure why Canon advertising does not appear on Rob's site? Are we certain that Rob accepts advertising dollars only from Nikon and no other camera maker?

I can state this much from first-hand knowledge: I worked quite closely with Rob on several projects back in the 2003-2005 timeframe. I know his consulting business required him to work with clients having both Nikon and Canon equipment, on a personal level he was a happy Canon shooter in those days. He once confided in me how he couldn't really figure out why his died-in-the-wool Nikon buddies couldn't see the difference for themselves in Canon files (recall this was back in the D2h/D2x days). He never once demonstrated any kind of Nikon bias in my interactions with him.

I believe that his integrity as a journalist is important to him; photojournalism was, after all, his first career. I for one can see that reflected in his writing, which is fact-based and objectively written to a much greater extent than most equipment blog sites on the Web.

You could argue that he his reviews have been based on bad samples, or he has incorrectly set up his grear, or his many posted images don't really show a problem. That's fine, but that's a different kind of criticism than calling the man a charlatan or a fraud because these Nikon ads "prove" he is on the take. For that you better have proof.

Whatever his current opinion of Nikon and Canon equipment, it seems likely to me that it might have something to do with the inherent qualities of the cameras themselves. Rob did not cause large numbers of Canon shooters to switch to Nikon in the last two years: Nikon and Canon did.



Feb 14, 2010 at 01:59 PM
Nill Toulme
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p.19 #12 · RG on 1D Mk IV autofocus performance


Well said.

Nill



Feb 14, 2010 at 02:10 PM
FretNoMore
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p.19 #13 · RG on 1D Mk IV autofocus performance


It would help if Nikon cameras were tested and reported on in the exact same way, both to dispel the talk about bias, but also to put things in perspective. Canon's AF is not 100% accurate, but I seriously doubt Nikon's is either. As long as only one brand is scrutinized in detail while the other brand is said to better based only on hearsay people will doubt whether the comparison is unbiased, and whether Canon's performance is worse or if you'll actually see much the same results with other cameras.


Feb 14, 2010 at 02:16 PM
rxgolf
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p.19 #14 · RG on 1D Mk IV autofocus performance


OH OH...Now you have gone and clouded this discussion with some common since. I know for a fact that I read here that there was nothing wrong with the MkIII, there were just a lot of non pro types trying to use a camera that was too sophisticated for their ability. Now, surely you have seen that the RG site has a Nikon add, so if you can put 1 +1 together you can see his intent to smear the MkIV. Maybe even if we look close enough between the lines of his review, we can see that he really means this camera is never going to take a decent in focus shot in any situation and for any photographer. Seriously, surely we can lighten up on RG and make our own decisions about this newest offering from a top notch company. I for one appreciate his candor and think he is one of the most trusted reviewers in the business. I will for sure pay attention and follow this situation, but will most likely make the switch from the D3s to the MkIV as soon as my sons senior year of BB is done in about a month. I agree with his BB findings in that the D3s FAR surpasses my old D3 and MKIII when it comes to BB in crap light, high school gyms. BUT, after reading everything I can on the MKIV, I still feel the bigger files and 1.3 crop may better suit my wants as soon as I am done shooting in the dungeon. I wanted a MKIV before and after the RG article. I also believe RG saw what he saw and did the right thing by reporting to us his opinion. If people don't want his opinion, I don't believe it is required reading. Sorry to rant, but it irks me when those of our society want to blast those who are actually out doing something. For those so quick to criticize, go out and do what ever it takes to start your own digital photography web site. If your qualifications, education, and photographic ability are such that you can be confident enough to publicly criticize someone with the credentials of RG, then maybe you should be the one doing the test, writing the articles, and posting your findings. I mean, each of you critics have put the MkIV through an extensive test or how else would you arrive at the conclusion that RG has missed the mark with his test findings



Feb 14, 2010 at 02:41 PM
Jrocket
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p.19 #15 · RG on 1D Mk IV autofocus performance


jeremy_clay wrote:
*sigh* here we go! If anyone has one that no longer works because of this review, please pass it over and I'll take it off your hands for a fair price.


Same here.




Feb 14, 2010 at 02:49 PM
jamesf99
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p.19 #16 · RG on 1D Mk IV autofocus performance


garyvot wrote:
I think the "problem" is the lack of critical thinking that allows people to assume that some impropriety exists without objective evidence to prove it.

Do we know for sure why Canon advertising does not appear on Rob's site? Are we certain that Rob accepts advertising dollars only from Nikon and no other camera maker?

I can state this much from first-hand knowledge: I worked quite closely with Rob on several projects back in the 2003-2005 timeframe. I know his consulting business required him to work with clients having both Nikon and Canon equipment, on a personal level he was
...Show more


It's not a lack of critical thinking, it's in most cases an awareness that something isn't right with this "review".

I am not in the market for this camera, nor do I plan to buy one any time soon. My interest is solely in Canon's engineering development, quality control, and integrity; three areas where they've proven themselves lacking in recent years.

I've always supported RG and never believed he demonstrated any bias, even after he switched to Nikon. If he actually has uncovered another substandard Canon product being sold as a professional tool, I, and anyone that thinks,should congratulate him. But this time RG's "review" has problems that hurt his credibility IMO, not the least of which include the following:

1) He admitted he didn't use current firmware. All results may be invalid.

2) While this never bothered me previously, he accepts money from, and uses, Nikon equipment. I'm a big fan of the Nikon D3 series, but claiming that Nikon advertising dollars and relationship are not a consideration, one way or another, are simply disingenuous or misguided. Unless he has another mfg waiting in the wings to make up for a potential ad revenue loss, his comments can no longer be considered unbiased without question. he also accepts revenue from Panasonic (not a real competitor) and TT, based on what one can assume is a equal opportunity ad package. Also, remember, Canon was once his principle advertiser... ** see below...

3) He didn't show side-by-side comparisons demonstrating Nikon got the shot that Canon missed. Evidence (side-by-side images) from other reviews refute his claims. Additionally, the camera (1D4) is new and Canon deserves the chance to make corrections, just as Nikon did with the D3.

4) and this is the one that really bothers me, knowing full well what his comments would do, he purposely/intentionally left the specter of another AF debacle hanging over the cameras head, with a very unprofessional "I'll correct it in a few months" dismissal. That's the epitome of "Yellow journalism".

I'm actually saddened by this. I'm sure RG is a decent guy that just made a huge, and preventable mistake. Even if the 1D4 has problems, it doesn't excuse the way this was presented. There's a higher standard on review sites (besides DPR and ken Rockwell's that is) and once you lose credibility for misleading/misinforming, it may be gone for good. IMO he should immediately publish an acknowledgment that he screwed up, but it's his reputation.

** A large group of Toyota dealers in the South eastern US pulled their advertising from ABC affiliates because according to the group, ABC was focusing too much on the negative aspects of the Toyota recalls. While incredibly dumb, this shows exactly what advertisers (that lack credibility) will do when criticized. Are Nikon and Canon really above such tactics? Did Canon end their advertising relationship or did RG kick them out? I don't know, but one rightly should wonder when ever money is at stake...



Feb 14, 2010 at 03:52 PM
keithreeder
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p.19 #17 · RG on 1D Mk IV autofocus performance


jamesf99 wrote:
4) and this is the one that really bothers me, knowing full well what his comments would do, he purposely/intentionally left the specter of another AF debacle hanging over the cameras head, with a very unprofessional "I'll correct it in a few months" dismissal. That's the epitome of "Yellow journalism".


Right before the start of the Winter Olympics, too - was that just coincidence?

Or is he playing mindgames with the 'togs shooting the games with Mk IVs?



Feb 14, 2010 at 05:16 PM
keithreeder
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p.19 #18 · RG on 1D Mk IV autofocus performance


jamesf99 wrote:
Even if the 1D4 has problems, it doesn't excuse the way this was presented.


That's the problem for me: not whether he's in bed with Nikon, or bent out of shape with Canon because of some past slight - it's just a badly done piece of work, badly presented, and open to too many interpretations.

That last, alone, makes it at best a useless review.



Feb 14, 2010 at 05:21 PM
skibum5
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p.19 #19 · RG on 1D Mk IV autofocus performance


keithreeder wrote:
Right before the start of the Winter Olympics, too - was that just coincidence?

Or is he playing mindgames with the 'togs shooting the games with Mk IVs?


the camera only came out a little while ago, timing is coincidence



Feb 14, 2010 at 05:56 PM
alundeb
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p.19 #20 · RG on 1D Mk IV autofocus performance


skibum5 wrote:
the camera only came out a little while ago, timing is coincidence


But they had a deadline for the story.



Feb 14, 2010 at 06:02 PM
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