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Archive 2010 · Why I hate AF.

  
 
brainiac
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p.4 #1 · Why I hate AF.


TWoK wrote:
What you guys hate is Canons deplorable AF. Pick up a pro Nikon and your AF issues will wash I away. I've just shot 47 rolls of film over the last week, all MF, so it's not like I don't MF the hell out of some lenses, but I do appreciate AF when I need it. Being able to properly use and employ autofocus is a skill in and of itself.


It may be better, but how does Nikon AF handle the duck shot above? That's right, it doesn't. And in fact, 1 series AF has cross points all over the place whereas Nikon only has them down the centre. Nikon's AF may be better in some situations, but it is still a long way from being able to focus off-centre subjects reliably or at all, and it gives up in the dark at around the same time Canon AF does. In the end, once you've learned to manually focus well, manual focus is the focussing method I wouldn't want to be without for general photography. You can rely on it to do an adequate job in situations where AF leaves you for dead.



Feb 08, 2010 at 10:56 AM
TWoK
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p.4 #2 · Why I hate AF.


brainiac wrote:
It may be better, but how does Nikon AF handle the duck shot above? That's right, it doesn't. And in fact, 1 series AF has cross points all over the place whereas Nikon only has them down the centre. Nikon's AF may be better in some situations, but it is still a long way from being able to focus off-centre subjects reliably or at all, and it gives up in the dark at around the same time Canon AF does. In the end, once you've learned to manually focus well, manual focus is the focussing method I wouldn't want to
...Show more
Well from my empirical evidence of hunting around the back streets of Japan at night my D700 nearly never hunts for focus in any light that is bright enough to hand hold in, 1/8th at 6400 we'll say while my 5D, admittedly bad at focusing, would hunt for focus long before I couldn't hand hold anymore. That's why I completely gave up on autofocus in low light with my Canon. Another thing, all of my Af points on my D700 are more accurate and more sensitive than even the center point was on the 5D. As for 1-series cameras, I've only used a 1Ds2 for a few days and while significantly better than the 5D I still felt it was not as good as my Nikon. I don't shoot birds and rarely use AF tracking, but when I have used it I've never been let down.



Feb 08, 2010 at 11:02 AM
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p.4 #3 · Why I hate AF.


This (TWoK's statement) exactly matches all of my EOS vs D700 experience. After shooting all of Canon's pro bodies for years, i find the D700 to lock on focus more quickly and accurately in bad light than any of the (admittedly, last generation) EOS bodies could even hope to. This is what matters to me- low light AF. Good light, all (except for a 5D haha) will focus fast enough for most situations, with a decent lens.


Feb 08, 2010 at 11:07 AM
mawz
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p.4 #4 · Why I hate AF.


kevinsullivan wrote:
AF is pretty much unavoidable when using older, less capable DSLRs: ones that lack "live view" (or the equivalent) and with view finders that are crappy enough to make manual focus difficult to impossible. Even the 5D is hard to manually focus w/ lenses like the 85/1.2 without the enhanced focusing screen. Of course it's hard to focus reliably with AF as well with such a lens. It was with the 1Ds II that I first came to appreciate what AF could do, e.g., with a lens such as the 24-70L. I could dial in focus points to minimize recompose
...Show more

The problem here is those are the very same bodies which tend to have the worst AF. In some cases (Early DRebels, Nikon D70/D50) there simply isn't a way to reliably focus a fast lens wide open due to poor VF's and AF systems which aren't sufficiently precise.



Feb 08, 2010 at 11:19 AM
ACElkins
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p.4 #5 · Why I hate AF.


jan_haidn wrote:
If there was an eyecontroled AF. With some 100 AF points al over the screne. Other than that I prefere eyecontroled MF.



As most of my work is Studio, Architectural and Fine Art Reproduction I really have no need for Autofocus, and cannot use autofocus anyway as most all of my lenses are Leica, Zeiss, Schneider and Nikon Manual Focus. I work mostly with the camera set up on a tripod to compose the shot and find that using Live View for critical focus is much more accurate than depending on Autofocus when I did test this with a Canon lens on my 1Ds3.


The one question I did have is about the Eye Controled Autofocus, I know this was incorporated on some Canon Film Cameras in the 90's but I am not familiar with any cameras currently using an Eye Controlled system. Is this a case of trying to bring out a feature without the technology to make it function properly so it got a bad rap? If so I would assume the technology today is advanced enough to make a dependable eye controled focus system viable. It seems as this would be a much easier to use system than the current one where you manually select focus points. Does anyone know what happend to this system of autofocus?





Feb 08, 2010 at 12:26 PM
mawz
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p.4 #6 · Why I hate AF.


ACElkins wrote:
The one question I did have is about the Eye Controled Autofocus, I know this was incorporated on some Canon Film Cameras in the 90's but I am not familiar with any cameras currently using an Eye Controlled system. Is this a case of trying to bring out a feature without the technology to make it function properly so it got a bad rap? If so I would assume the technology today is advanced enough to make a dependable eye controled focus system viable. It seems as this would be a much easier to use system than the current one
...Show more

ECF never made the transition to digital, the last ECF body was the ELan 7Ne.

It simply failed on multiple fronts. It didn't work properly with glasses, or with people who habitually squint and it was never precise enough to pick the right point with high point-count AF units. Chalk it up to Canon's version of the 'dumb 90's Camera Innovations'.



Feb 08, 2010 at 12:38 PM
pingflood
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p.4 #7 · Why I hate AF.


mawz wrote:
ECF never made the transition to digital, the last ECF body was the ELan 7Ne.

It simply failed on multiple fronts. It didn't work properly with glasses, or with people who habitually squint and it was never precise enough to pick the right point with high point-count AF units. Chalk it up to Canon's version of the 'dumb 90's Camera Innovations'.


Every time ECF is brought up there's plenty of people who will attest that it worked really well for them, including many who wear glasses. I suspect Canon has this on the back burner for when they run out of ideas for new features, at which point it'll magically resurface.



Feb 08, 2010 at 12:55 PM
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p.4 #8 · Why I hate AF.


ECF was, for i think most people, a big failure. I had an Elan 7e, and as nice as the camera was, i always had ECF turned off. It just wasn't reliable to the point that you could.... rely on it. It was like having an inadequate AF system that didn't always do what you asked.


Feb 08, 2010 at 02:23 PM
cogitech
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p.4 #9 · Why I hate AF.


Bifurcator wrote:
The talking heads line just popped into mind: "If this is paradise, I wish I had a lawn mower." If you know the context of that line it fits here nicely. I think in the next some-number-of-years, if we don't blow ourselves up, the AF problem will be completely solved. I'm thinking along the lines of the R&D that's being done with range cameras. Not to be confused with range-finder cameras.

http://web.mit.edu/persci/people/adelson/pub_pdfs/plenoptic.pdf
http://groups.csail.mit.edu/graphics/CodedAperture/CodedAperture-LevinEtAl-SIGGRAPH07.pdf

Basically focus/refocus, DOF selection, and bokeh type will become post processing choices or post acquisition in camera options to the end user. There are already working prototypes and the

Imagine the kinds and qualities of lenses that can be designed when focus is not a consideration at all!
...Show more

I think the more appropriate Talking Heads line would be: "We're on a road to nowhere."


Feb 08, 2010 at 02:42 PM
wickerprints
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p.4 #10 · Why I hate AF.


Far be it from me to defend AF as I too have been repeatedly disappointed in its performance when shooting what I call "moment-critical" subjects. But I wouldn't go without it, in the sense that having it there is better than not having it at all.

It's been a slow learning process to understand the limitations of AF, the conditions under which it is best used, and the proper technique with which to AF. And once I "got it," I have found myself less disappointed over time.

The thing is, people tend to hold unrealistic expectations of the capabilities of AF. It's not a 100% correct system 100% of the time. As I see it, the real issue is that it is impossible to confirm accurate focus in the viewfinder using the standard AF focusing screen, regardless of whether or not one is using AF or MF. There have been times when I would try MF on a standard screen through the VF and it would look just right--I'd even turn the focus ring back and forth between the points at which the subject just barely started to defocus, and settle in the midpoint. And I'd look at the 100% crop and it would turn out to be slightly misfocused 90% of the time. AF in many cases can "see" more accurately than I can through the VF. Furthermore, some AF lenses have focusing helicals that are sensitive/cramped.

If I had a split prism viewfinder like I had with my old film camera, I would be able to MF accurately. I've not tried the super precision screens so I can't say if they'd work for me; but in any case, who has time to switch out screens in the field?

As for Live View, I have used it on occasion to varying degrees of effectiveness. MF with LV is super easy and super accurate. But camera shake becomes a problem if handheld, so I mostly resort to using this technique on a tripod.



Feb 08, 2010 at 03:21 PM
brainiac
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p.4 #11 · Why I hate AF.


wickerprints wrote:
As I see it, the real issue is that it is impossible to confirm accurate focus in the viewfinder using the standard AF focusing screen...

...I've not tried the super precision screens so I can't say if they'd work for me; but in any case, who has time to switch out screens in the field?


I agree that the viewfinder is almost uselesss with the stock screens and Canon DSLR's are practically inoperable without the S screen. Why don't you try an S screen before writing them off? IMO the problems of using the S-type manual screens are overstated. I buy the S screen with the camera, set the C-function, and leave it there for the life of the camera.



Feb 08, 2010 at 03:35 PM
cogitech
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p.4 #12 · Why I hate AF.


brainiac wrote:
IMO the problems of using the S-type manual screens are overstated. I buy the S screen with the camera, set the C-function, and leave it there for the life of the camera.


+1, and if a camera doesn't have an S-screen as an option, then that camera is not an option for me.



Feb 08, 2010 at 03:43 PM
cgiff
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p.4 #13 · Why I hate AF.


TWoK wrote:
Being able to properly use and employ autofocus is a skill in and of itself.

This.
Saying autofocus is inferior to manual focus because of this single experience doesn't really make sense. It's like someone who only uses autofocus trying to manually focus, say, an 85/1.4 with the stock screen and complaining that the results are inconsistent.

There's having the right tools and then there's being able to use them. Being able to control and fully utilize a modern AF system is a skill just like being quick and accurate with manual focus.



Feb 08, 2010 at 03:59 PM
cogitech
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p.4 #14 · Why I hate AF.


cgiff wrote:
Saying autofocus is inferior to manual focus because of this single experience doesn't really make sense.


Did I say that?

No. I said this is an example of why I hate AF.

Very different.

It just so happens that this was the first time in a long time that I decided to give AF a chance. Yet again, it failed miserably.

Static subject, ample light, centre focus point directed right on top of the subject. Fail, fail, fail, fail....

If this is a matter of me not knowing how to use AF, then please tell me how I should have tricked the camera into focusing properly.

On second thought, don't bother. I won't be using it again for a long, long time.

Edited on Feb 08, 2010 at 04:11 PM · View previous versions



Feb 08, 2010 at 04:06 PM
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p.4 #15 · Why I hate AF.


Many people simply discounted the D700 on release because of the inability to change to a different (OEM) screen. That is stupid, because the stock D700 screen, IMO, works far better than most stock Canon screens. It still isn't as good as an S, but it is brighter.


Feb 08, 2010 at 04:07 PM
wickerprints
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p.4 #16 · Why I hate AF.


cogitech wrote:
Static subject, ample light, centre focus point directed right on top of the subject. Fail, fail, fail, fail....

If this is a matter of me not knowing how to use AF, then please tell me how I should have tricked the camera into focusing properly.

On second thought, don't bother. I won't be using it again for a long, long time.


As I previously mentioned, I am by no means a huge fan of AF. So please try to understand that what I'm about to say here is not meant as a criticism of your technique or knowledge level.

Certainly you must know that AF requires a certain level of subject contrast within the AF field in order to function. For example, pointing the camera into a cloudless sky will cause AF to fail, even though there is plenty of light.

Second, the AF point is not truly confined to the rectangle that shows up in the VF. And if you have AF point expansion on, this can impair AF accuracy under certain conditions that are related to the contrast issue I mentioned above.

When I use AF, I don't just try to point the camera at the spot I want to be in focus. Depending on the subject, I will sometimes look for a spot that is as close as possible to being the same distance away, but has higher edge contrast, in keeping with the above. Otherwise, if I target a low-contrast area, the AF system may not find the desired focus, or even worse, it may lock onto the wrong portion of the subject and confirm the incorrect focus, leading you to believe it is correct. This is why AF point expansion is not always a good thing--assist points will try to find subject contrast in the scene that you want to ignore, such as the branches in your example.

Speaking of your example, instead of pointing the AF directly at the bird, I would have pointed it at the boundary between the bird and the background sky. This would carry a small risk of backfocus, but with some experience, I find this helps out a lot.

I dunno. Take it for what it's worth. If you choose not to use AF ever again, then that's your decision. It's not going to have any bearing on how I, or anyone else, shoots.



Feb 08, 2010 at 04:28 PM
cgiff
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p.4 #17 · Why I hate AF.


cogitech wrote:
Static subject, ample light, centre focus point directed right on top of the subject. Fail, fail, fail, fail....

If this is a matter of me not knowing how to use AF, then please tell me how I should have tricked the camera into focusing properly.

I by no means meant to put words in your mouth, I was just going against the general tone that AF stinks.
There are many variables, but maybe you had the focus point stuck in an area that was totally red and needed to move it to a more contrasty area? Maybe not. Looking at the picture again, I can't believe that if you had the AF point on the bird's face, or half on the bird and half on the branch in front of it, it wouldn't lock on. If that was the case I'd be frustrated too!



Feb 08, 2010 at 04:28 PM
cogitech
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p.4 #18 · Why I hate AF.


wickerprints wrote:
As I previously mentioned, I am by no means a huge fan of AF. So please try to understand that what I'm about to say here is not meant as a criticism of your technique or knowledge level.

Certainly you must know that AF requires a certain level of subject contrast within the AF field in order to function. For example, pointing the camera into a cloudless sky will cause AF to fail, even though there is plenty of light.

Second, the AF point is not truly confined to the rectangle that shows up in the VF. And if you have AF
...Show more

I see your points and understand fully. My point is that I don't have to know about any of that AF wizardry or be occupied with of any of it if I simply turn AF off and use my eye. I think that has been demonstrated in the example I posted.

I had a moment of lack of confidence in my MF skills because I assumed this little guy would be gone before I knew it. What I have learned is to trust my ability to manual focus, no matter what the situation. Oh, I also learned that Cardinals tend move slower at -10 C.

Edited on Feb 08, 2010 at 04:49 PM · View previous versions



Feb 08, 2010 at 04:37 PM
cogitech
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p.4 #19 · Why I hate AF.


cgiff wrote:
I by no means meant to put words in your mouth, I was just going against the general tone that AF stinks.
There are many variables, but maybe you had the focus point stuck in an area that was totally red and needed to move it to a more contrasty area? Maybe not. Looking at the picture again, I can't believe that if you had the AF point on the bird's face, or half on the bird and half on the branch in front of it, it wouldn't lock on. If that was the case I'd be frustrated too!


Well, it is a 5D, after all.



Feb 08, 2010 at 04:39 PM
philip_pj
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p.4 #20 · Why I hate AF.


Yeah, but, Wickerprints, its just another workaround for something that intrudes on the way you want to do the job.

I always hated it, AF. The silly spots were never where you want them, you have to move the bloody camera to suit the AF, you have to careful where you put your fingers, you get no real-time feedback about whwere focus is set, you end up having to work the way the dopey system forces you to! I had one of those crazy eye control Canons at one stage, you felt like it was watching you, to see if you would make a mistake...

In pure interface terms, it is a dud, pure and simple - imagine having to look for something the focus system will 'like' focusing on. I hate it for tripod work too, where you want focus 'out of the way' to get on with the rest of the operation, but you have to move the head around due to the AF spot locations. And I feel the makers are using it to slack out of providing good VFs and screens. It also impacts on lens design, so we get bloated kilo weight zooms like the CZ ZA series instead of something like the 35-70 f3.4. Not to mention the crap underdamped focus rings and lack of scales, backfocus, quality minimisation, etc. ad nauseum. We are lucky to have any MF lenses at all...

Calming down a little, I can see why portrait street shooters may want it in some circumstances with short teles with fleeting subjects and fast lenses, but overall - uggh.



Feb 08, 2010 at 06:09 PM
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