^ Since when does shooting an MM model have anything to do with professionalism?
Pay me some cash, and I'll shoot anyone. But for a project I'm doing in my spare time, I'll shoot someone I find attractive, thank you very much. And I'm no GWC either.
Its not creepy, its the law of the jungle. Natural selection if you will.
How the hell can you compare a photographer to a Dr?
Personally - I don't take money for my work at this point, and I would MUCH rather take photographs of beautiful women (Which I also happen to find attractive) than any other subject.
How the hell can you compare a photographer to a Dr?
johnbonham wrote:
Becuase they're both professionals, and the subject (or patient)'s gender, race, or looks should NOT matter at all.
Uh.... I don't even know what to say to that. Looks shouldn't matter to a photographer?
A doctor's job is to treat the ill. A critical aspect of a photographer's job is to use their aesthetic judgment when deciding what to shoot. Not the same thing at all.
So, basically, what you're saying is if anybody came up to me and offered me money to take a photo of them, that I am obligated to accept that money and shoot them. I'm sorry, but NOBODY obligates me to do that. Nobody is going to die if I don't take a photo of them.
You have to understand that not all photographers are in the same kind of business of photography. If you're running a portrait studio, then your concern is to shoot clients that pay your advertised rate and are reasonable with their behavior and needs. You shouldn't discriminate based on gender or skin color, as you said. But if you're doing a gallery show, I would at least expect that the photographer would have discretion over what subject to shoot. You can't lump the two together and think of every portrait photographer as being the "portrait studio" type. If I'm hiring a model for my own portfolio, I have every damn right to pick who I want!
And that does NOT make me a GWC. Sticky portfolio pages or a sticky shutter button would make me a GWC.
johnbonham wrote:
1) It shoudln't and 2) You're a pervert/GWC, not a pro photographer.
Also photographing "pretty" people is FAR, FAR easier, and takes FAR less skill to photograph. Try making a 300LB woman look good in front of a lense, or a person with a huge nose, or oddly shaped face. It's a different world. That's when exprience, and knowledge of posing REALLY comes into play.
Who cares how easy or difficult it is to photograph someone based on their appearance? Unlike you, I don't look down on other photographers based on their skill level. It's not a pissing contest.
FWIW I don't even shoot portraiture. My interests are wildlife and macro, and if I do photograph anybody, it's generally myself. But I find it completely offensive that you deign to label other people perverts on the sole basis that they want to shoot attractive people. That's like saying to me that I must be into bestiality because I like to photograph cute little furry animals.
Don't get me wrong--there are definitely GWCs out there, creepy people whose agenda is only tangentially related to photography. But we're not talking about that. The GWCs, the real bad ones, are easy to spot. We're talking about your accusing people of being perverts when you don't know ANYTHING about how and why they shoot photos.
I think it's very telling of your paranoia about sex and sexuality that you consider it acceptable if a photographer says "I chose to photograph this landscape because I found it beautiful" but unacceptable if that same photographer says "I chose to photograph this person because I found him/her beautiful." If for you, human beauty is necessarily bound to sexual desire, then it must be very difficult for you to live amongst others. I don't want to bone every attractive person I see. I'm a developmentally mature adult with an intact brain and I know how to appreciate the beauty in others without feeling the urge to jump them.
johnbonham wrote:
Not in chosing what subject to photograph, of course not; unless it's under a direction from an agency for a particular aspect of a job. But your PERSONAL preferences certainly shouldn't matter, at all. That's very unprofessional.
My 'personal preferences' shouldn't matter for my 'personal' work? What planet are you on?
It's full of tons of girls who with egos/issues who want to say "Hey, I'm a model!" etc. Most of these girls are toothpicks and 5'3" with no chance at ALL of ever becoming a model.
Just use them as props while you learning, don't worry about "social" issues (lol) that's totally unnecessary, they're just purse props while you learn.
WTF......
Dude that's a very poor attitude to have. I sure hope that your joking. They are probably looking at you and saying "MM is full of egotistical jerks who think they are going to be professional photographers someday".
I happen to be a red blooded american Male with a pulse.
QUITE a difference.
by Your estimation If I deign to take photographs of my wife, because I find her to be the most beautiful woman I have ever seen - I am therefor a pervert?
And let me add this -
johnbonham
It's full of tons of girls who with egos/issues who want to say "Hey, I'm a model!" etc. Most of these girls are toothpicks and 5'3" with no chance at ALL of ever becoming a model. Just use them as props while you learning, don't worry about "social" issues (lol) that's totally unnecessary, they're just purse props while you learn.
By your own definition - it shouldn't matter that they are 5'3 toothpicks. It's your job as a professional to make them look great!!
Wow guys. If you need a model for something and haven't tried MM, try it. If you don't like it, don't use it ever again. By just looking at some of the weirdos on there, you are missing out on a lot of un-tapped talent.
I'm very glad that I signed up years ago and I wouldn't be where I am today (photographically speaking) without it.
Ian Bower wrote:
I joined Model Mayhem this week - and was browsing through the models in my area.
Was wondering if someone could give me some hard fast tips and pointers about working with models (as in, socially, not photographically).
What I mean is - Some of them say TFCD and TFP. I figured out what those meant, but some say "Let me know if I should bring my own outfits" and a few other things that struck me as odd -
I'm looking for a model to practice my photography on - a day of just shooting somewhere. I don't want to worry about what she is wearing (yet). I don't want to pay anyone, but I am MORE than happy to trade for portfolio shots.
Should I be looking somewhere besides Model Mayhem for this type of model?
(Half of these girls seem like they wont get infront of a camera unless they are naked anyway - and I don't mean tastefull nudes, or inplied nudes, or even pinups. I mean - bordering on porn)
I know MM has a forum. I like you guys better. ...Show more →
I have to ask, what kind of photography are you interested in pursuing? Fashion, Beauty, Glamor, Nude, Art...?
Gee MM takes forever to approve you. Applied like on Tuesday or so, still haven't heard. Sure, I don't really shoot people that much (like anothe rposter, I'm primarily a nature photographer), but I do want to improve my photography in a variety of genres that interest me. Portraiture. Modelling. Motor sports. Birding. Those are things that interest me in terms of material.
Tell me John, if I only date beautiful women, and ignore ugly women, am I a pervert? By your MM photographic definition I would be, simly because I show an interest in women. Grow up. Not all males think with their dick. Not all males are creeps. Not all male photographers join MM to perve on girls.
johnbonham wrote:
Man, there are some REALLY stupid people on this forum.
Your post makes absolutely NO sense whatsoever. Dating has NOTHING to do with being a professional photographer anymore than it has to do with being a doctor. Being a professional means, you put your person issues aside.
Exactly what I was thinking while reading your posts. At least you admit to it in a forthright manner...very professional of you.
jonbonham, in your estimation would professional fashion designers and stylists prefer to work with beautiful people or not so beautiful people? If the former, would that also make them unprofessional perverts? What if the photog, designer, or stylist is a straight female and much prefers to work with beautiful women? Still a pervert? Still a GWC, or Girl with tailors tape (GWT) or Girl with scissors (GWS)?
Perhaps these people just prefer to work with the best resources available...that means the best tools they can afford, the best scenery they can find, and the best people that suit their needs. Why make it out to be dark and villainous when clearly its just people looking for beauty to transform into their own vision?
melkor wrote:
Tell me John, if I only date beautiful women, and ignore ugly women, am I a pervert? By your MM photographic definition I would be, simly because I show an interest in women. Grow up. Not all males think with their dick. Not all males are creeps. Not all male photographers join MM to perve on girls.
Dave
johnbonham wrote:
Man, there are some REALLY stupid people on this forum.
Your post makes absolutely NO sense whatsoever. Dating has NOTHING to do with being a professional photographer anymore than it has to do with being a doctor. Being a professional means, you put your person issues aside.
I'm going to agree that that was not a very logical argument. Correct conclusion, but the wrong reasoning.
I dunno...I think it reflects very poorly upon oneself to think that deep down, everyone is just a pervert and we're all motivated by sex or the prospect of it. Let's be clear--everyone IS motivated by sex...sometimes. It wouldn't bode well for the future of humanity if that weren't the case. But certainly I would prefer to think that a great many of us photographers know how to conduct ourselves maturely, and have a proper mindset toward the photographic process. "Professionally" is a strict subset of "maturely"--the latter encompasses social behaviors that the former does not, such as not being a cold jacka**. Like others have noted, there are professional creeps, too.
And hiring a model because we think they are "attractive" does not mean we lust after them or that we are trying to leverage some "favors" out of it. At least, I would hope not.
But I do have to point out that historically, the practice of sleeping with one's models has been going on for far, far longer than there have been such things as cameras. It's almost as old as art itself. Take that for what it's worth.
i was on there for a little while. i signed up in december (november, maybe?). it was easy, approved the next day, etc. i set up a decent profile and had some pictures. i started networking a little bit but found it to be pretty fruitless. if i made a friend request or left a comment, i would tend to get a new 'friend' and what felt like an obligatory reply comment on my profile. however, when i would try and actually set something up, i would get no response 95% of the time. maybe it's just me and i certainly will not rule that out. i did have a couple girls who wanted to set things up but either the timing was off or they weren't really the style i shoot and i didn't want to waste their time.
what set me off, and got me to cancel my account was the sheer number of 'models' just looking to make a buck off of it. i got a message from one such model which was short and sweet, something like 'i LOVE your work' (yes, 'love' was in caps).. and she was going to be in town to set something up. anytime, i see something like that, i go to my pictures to see if the view count has went up at all and sure enough it hadn't. so i check out her profile and she's nowhere close to my style and only does paid shoots. of which i clearly had a note on my profile stating my situation as an amateur who's looking to do TF work.
my experience with MM was unproductive and unpleasant. i'll stick with getting friends to pose for me. the more i do that, the more i can hopefully recruit friends of friends, etc and branch out that way.
and i'm not saying MM is bad as i know others on there who seem to really enjoy it. it's just not for everyone, i guess.
I'm on MM, I've turned down 3 offers and accepted one which I shot last weekend. I've only been on there since mid Nov. I have two more lined up, which are just timing issues. I think its a great site to network.
