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ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)

  
 
philber
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p.12 #1 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


wayne seltzer wrote:
Adam,
I wouldn't bother Philippe about payment as he will show you the door ... one of his gorgeous doors!
Something is wrong with my ZE 50 MP, it takes fuzzy shots.



Wayne, as the Zen Master would say, your shot is fine and sharp, it is your mind that is fuzzy...



Mar 07, 2010 at 03:22 AM
adamdewilde
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p.12 #2 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)




Wow, I would never use lens without hood. Hood is the most important protection for lens. You can avoid most of the dust (less need for cleaning the lens = less scratches), rain drops and direct collisions to lens by using lens hood. Using "protection filters" with Leica and Zeiss lenses really doesn't make any sense to me, you loose so much quality, specially in backlight conditions. These days I rarely even use polarizer, somehow ZE colors get too strong with polarizer, wish they would make one which only would remote reflections from green (plants, grass etc.) but not oversaturate sky...

EDIT:
...Show more


Alright alright, I'll take the hood out of the box and fix it to the lens... It just starts to feel like I'm trying to compensate for something when the hood n all is attached.



Mar 07, 2010 at 07:01 AM
adamdewilde
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p.12 #3 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


joekraft wrote:
Thanks Samuli.

@Phillipe: Seems with the highest magnification, you should have the hightest keeper rate with the 85.

40%, because of the focus shift issue?

That is pretty high, at any rate. Maybe this lens is a mistake.




I think your missing something here... Although I do get your train of thought about the magnification, it's instinctually what one would think, and for the most part it's true however what you may be missing is a 21mm lens will naturally give you more keepers in the "acceptable field of focus", then say a 85mm, it's simply got a thicker depth to it from wide open. The 85 and 100 are paper thin comparatively, though they may be using the same aperture setting..

Another factor that could effect "keeper" rate is shutter speed, if you're shooting 100mm and you can't pump up your shutter, you'll get more visible vibration with a 100mm then with say a 21mm... You know that old rule, you should do double and a half your shutter speed to lens FL.. Like a 100mm should be 200th or 250th of a second ideally, and your 21mm would really only need to be somewhere around 50th of a second. Not saying that 50th will yeild good results with a 21mm, but it will give you a higher keeper rate then say a 85mm using 50th shutter.

I think this was clarified, if so sorry for the repeat lesson.

Honestly though, in a studio I would probably nail way more then 40% in what I'd deem acceptable focus, both with and without autofocus. So it doesn't mean there couldn't be something wrong with the lens... Although he may shoot different subjects then me, thus bringing down the keeper rates, I mean heck he could be talking about sports for all i know


Anyway, I would like to hear more about the 50 1.4 and 50 makro, because I think I'd keep my canon 85 1.8 for times when I'm just to lazy to manual focus. I'm now leaning towards 28, 50 as supplements to my 100... And in which case I would like to also hear about the 28...

Best,
ADam



Mar 07, 2010 at 07:14 AM
adamdewilde
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p.12 #4 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


Samuli Vahonen wrote:
+1 (Andrews photo)

Like Philippe says it's mostly problem on close-ups and middle distances. At infinity it's mostly covered by DOF. Also focus shift is pretty small at infinity - lens has least amount of aberrations at infinity - uncorrected aberrations are partial cause for focus shift according to Lloyd and some other sources, specially uncorrected spherical aberrations - I'm sure if I explained this incorrectly then optics guru mr. Toothwalker will correct me...

In practice if I shoot three/fence/other-thin-object 9 meters (27feet) away from me at f/2.8 the tree is barely in edge of DOF if focused at f/1.4, so
...Show more



philber - I shoot portraits and honestly the 85 really was built for portraits, so if it's problematic at close and medium distances thats no good!

Samuli - My 50L wasn't a bad copy, or at least I didn't really notice the shift. Most of the time though, I used it outdoors wide open so I suspect thats why I didn't notice it. In studio I rarely use primes as with the fast paced shooting it comes down to flexibility so either 24-70L or 70-200L. I mean one could say use the 85 ZE wide open, but again, a bad way of looking at things, and until Zeiss corrects this issue in future releases, I think I'd stick with my idea of 28-50-100..

Now, talk about the 50's my friends!



Mar 07, 2010 at 07:22 AM
adamdewilde
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p.12 #5 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


Samuli Vahonen wrote:
With AF it was always lucky to get exactly correct focus. I think I would get about same number of OOF shots what Philippe mentions if I would use viewfinder. For some reason I have hard time focusing with viewfinder and my eye gets tired easily when trying to manual focus accurately all the time (something to do with Canon viewfinder/S-screen - I have tried with my old Pentax from 1970's and I have absolutly no problem except I don't have any film for it...).

About a month ago I did get my LCDVF and for me this makes
...Show more


Do you notice that after using your LCDVF (z-finder for me), that your one pupil is dilated and your other is ok, which then causes weird eye problems. Honestly I think that staring that close to a monitor thats being magnified with one eye in and one eye out, that something's gonna go wrong in the next year or so with my/your vision. Just thinking about it as I write, I'm starting to feel a little weird!



Mar 07, 2010 at 07:24 AM
adamdewilde
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p.12 #6 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


wayne seltzer wrote:
Adam,
I wouldn't bother Philippe about payment as he will show you the door ... one of his gorgeous doors!
Something is wrong with my ZE 50 MP, it takes fuzzy shots.




Umm thats the most obscene photo I've seen... Seriously that photo is NSFW, you shouldn't embed rather links only please.

BTW, if the 50 MP is good with medium and far as it is with close up, I would seriously consider it. Although I just took my dogs for a walk and brought along the 100 MP to see how if fared at night, and I think I could use the extra bit of light 1.4 allows for.. As honestly the 50 IMHO is really more of a walkaround lens then something I'd use for work.

Thanks for sharing, and remember to link images of that nature in the future, or I may have to report you.



Mar 07, 2010 at 08:05 AM
RickPerry
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p.12 #7 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


Based on this review - focus shift is zero if you shoot at 5.6.


"I asked Zeiss about this attribute - here is their response:

"Fast lenses of this optical design (without floating elements) shift the focus due to spherical aberration when the f-stop is changed. This phenomenon is especially visible on closer object distances and cannot be influenced. The AF system of most camera models does not respect those characteristics of a lens. The focus is measured and confirmed by the focus indicator as if the lens has been stopped down to f/5.6. "



http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Zeiss-85mm-f-1.4-ZE-Planar-Lens-Review.aspx



Mar 07, 2010 at 10:02 AM
joekraft
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p.12 #8 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


I was interested to learn Hasselblad builds in compensation for this on their systems. So that's what an extra $40,000 gets you!

Hasselblad seems to be clearly ahead of PhaseOne in this area. For example, it is a well known fact that all lenses experience focus shift when the aperture changes. This is a bad thing, particularly for SLR’s that are focused with the lens wide open (this applies both, to manual as well as autofocus). Since the camera knows which lens is mounted on the body, and also knows the shooting aperture and focusing distance, the Hasselblad body makes a focus shift correction just prior to making the exposure. This is a great feature. For a detailed explanation of this see.. .http://www.hasselbladusa.com/media/1663143/the_evolution_of_lenses.pdf.


http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/h3d50ii.shtml



Mar 07, 2010 at 10:13 AM
wayne seltzer
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p.12 #9 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


Mark,
Beautiful Calla lilly shot with the 50 MP!
A few weeks back I was taking some shots of them with all my 50's.
How are liking the 50 MP?



Mar 07, 2010 at 10:27 AM
Edgars Kalnins
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p.12 #10 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


I am sorry to butt in with a non-ZE question. Has anyone compared ZE or ZF with the new ZA 16-35mm? As I understand it is possible to put ZA on canon and this seems to be a tempting replacemnt for N17-35mm. does it have the characteristics Zeiss is so famous of?


Mar 07, 2010 at 12:15 PM
 


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adamdewilde
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p.12 #11 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


Wayne, .

Beautiful shots, the first picture reminds me of college... KIDDING KIDDING.

Yeah, honestly if I had the funds I'd do it up. I'm gonna work with the 100 MP for a while, and since i'll shortly be in need of a semi-wide, I am going to consider the 28 or 35.

My thoughts were 21-35-50-100 or 28-50-100 (which is easier on the wallet, and less excessive). Although I'm sure I could get by with 35-100, then just use my canon non-L primes to fill in the gaps, plus my L zooms for times when I really need better IQ (better then non-L primes).. Though if I found myself using the ZEs exclusively, then I'd be stuck wanting to beef out the 35-100 set, and would be forced to go 21-35-50-100 which would break the bank!
I guess what I'm getting at, is I wanna see some good 28s and 50 1.4s... Or for someone to tell me 35-100 is a great all purpose set



Mar 07, 2010 at 02:30 PM
Samuli Vahonen
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p.12 #12 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


RickPerry wrote:
Based on this review - focus shift is zero if you shoot at 5.6.

"I asked Zeiss about this attribute - here is their response:

"Fast lenses of this optical design (without floating elements) shift the focus due to spherical aberration when the f-stop is changed. This phenomenon is especially visible on closer object distances and cannot be influenced. The AF system of most camera models does not respect those characteristics of a lens. The focus is measured and confirmed by the focus indicator as if the lens has been stopped down to f/5.6. "

http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Zeiss-85mm-f-1.4-ZE-Planar-Lens-Review.aspx


Rick, this statement does not say focus shift is zero if you shoot at f/5.6. It's saying that the autofocus sensors do see the the image lens projects like lens would be closed to f/5.6. Due to this focus confirm does not work well with lenses having focus shift. Same is also said in Lloyd (both his blog and paid articles). I have never found this green lights and beeps accurate but at nighttime shooting (non-tripod) I use them since I just cannot see well enough through viewfinder to focus.

In practice focus shift is gone by f/2.8, which means that doing following mitigates focus shift pretty well:

  1. if you shoot f/1.4-2.7999999 focus at aperture you are going to use (notice that in bright conditions live view may close the lens since the view is too bright - one bad thing about having electronic aperture)
  2. if you shoot f/2.8-22 then focus at f/2.8


Samuli



Mar 07, 2010 at 02:36 PM
RickPerry
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p.12 #13 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


Samuli,

Yes - what you say makes sense. I always focus with viewfinder and stopdown anyways - I use the beep to get me close then actually look as best I can with old eyes.



Mar 07, 2010 at 03:27 PM
Samuli Vahonen
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p.12 #14 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


adamdewilde wrote:
Do you notice that after using your LCDVF (z-finder for me), that your one pupil is dilated and your other is ok, which then causes weird eye problems. Honestly I think that staring that close to a monitor thats being magnified with one eye in and one eye out, that something's gonna go wrong in the next year or so with my/your vision. Just thinking about it as I write, I'm starting to feel a little weird!


I'm not sure what you mean - My eyes used to get tired watching viewfinder but watching liveview through LCDVF does not get the tired. If I use only LCDVF on shoot I adjust the brightness to 4 of 7 setting (when I use live view without LCDVF I have it at full power). Only weird thing was when I tried it without the eye cup cushion (made of soft cloth) in it (just the rubber against eye cup) and it worked like suction cup, even made "blob" sound when removed from eye, that did feel really weird and I really don't want to experience it again... With LCDVF I can keep easily my other eye open, which makes it easier for eyes as well.





adamdewilde wrote:
philber - I shoot portraits and honestly the 85 really was built for portraits, so if it's problematic at close and medium distances thats no good!

Samuli - My 50L wasn't a bad copy, or at least I didn't really notice the shift. Most of the time though, I used it outdoors wide open so I suspect thats why I didn't notice it. In studio I rarely use primes as with the fast paced shooting it comes down to flexibility so either 24-70L or 70-200L. I mean one could say use the 85 ZE wide open, but again, a bad way
...Show more
85mm is typically considered as portrait focal length. However for some weird reasons Zeiss designed the 1.4/85 so that it's optimized to infinity and doesn't have floating element. I use it only for "environmental portraits" (full body visible or even less magnification) at f/1.4. See example below.

50L doesn't need to be bad copy to have focus shift, it's included in every copy of 50L. Of course if you get really bad copy it may have more uncorrected spherical aberrations and therefore more focus shift, but all of them do. Most of the fast lenses have some focus shift.

Regarding 50's I got first 50ZE shot today, which has the look what I was trying to get, or even close to it. I really don't know what to do at 50mm since 1.4/50ZE has focus shift and at f/1.4 it's really bad (even focusing is difficult, similarly C/Y1.7 I prefer to focus at f/2.5 where it's razor sharp). I was pretty happy with 1.7/50C/Y. I'm thinking either trying 2/50ZE or just using 1.7/50C/Y - have to shoot more with f/1.4 to get my mind clear about this. This far I have not seen f/1.4 Planar doing anything better what good copy of f/1.7 does. I have really liked the look of converted Canon FD f/1.2 lenses, but I don't have capabilities to do the conversion myself.

Example of "environmental portrait" 85ZE, f/1.4, 1/8000s, ISO 50, Yongnuo radio remote trigger:


Example of look what I'm trying to get from 50mm - 50ZE, f/2, 1/2500s, ISO 100:






adamdewilde wrote:
My thoughts were 21-35-50-100 or 28-50-100 (which is easier on the wallet, and less excessive). Although I'm sure I could get by with 35-100, then just use my canon non-L primes to fill in the gaps, plus my L zooms for times when I really need better IQ (better then non-L primes).. Though if I found myself using the ZEs exclusively, then I'd be stuck wanting to beef out the 35-100 set, and would be forced to go 21-35-50-100 which would break the bank!
I guess what I'm getting at, is I wanna see some good 28s and 50 1.4s...


I got a little too many ZE lenses due to having good luck finding good deals. My problem is what is the set of lenses I'm really going to use for shooting. For example while I travel I definitely will not carry ZE21, 28, 35, 50, 85, 100 with me, it's too heavy. I have to get my mind clear about this before this years photography season really starts. If I would have to guess now then I would say I will shoot next summer with: ZE21, C/Y25, ZE35, 50mm (not sure yet which ZE1.4, ZE2 or C/Y1.7), ZE100 and C/Y80-200. This set with 5DmkII & Gitzo 1550T (+Photoclam smallest ballhead) stored in Lowepro Flipside 400AW will fit (it's pretty tight) flying hand luggage regulations and is easy to carry in cities etc. When I'm in Finland I can take my 80 liter hiking backpack and put 20kg lenses, flashes and whatever I need and it's easy to carry, so this is only issue when flying somewhere or doing multiple day hikes and tent and other stuff is needed to be carried.

adamdewilde wrote:
Or for someone to tell me 35-100 is a great all purpose set


35 & 100 is great all purpose set Before moving to ZE I did shoot two years with ZF35 and ZF100 as my main lenses, over half of the photos were taken with these two lenses. With 1.3x crop this combo was a little problematic but with full frame it's very versatile.



Mar 07, 2010 at 03:52 PM
joekraft
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p.12 #15 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


I don't mean to ask you to prove a negative, but... I see a lot of head/head and shoulders portraits on flickr that look like they are in the same league as an 85 1.2. It looks to be exactly what I would want. Do you have any at close range that show how poorly the 85 performs in that context, such that you don't even use it? I think it would be very informative to a lot of folks watching this thread. Or in other words - if this is as bad as it sounds for what I want it for, help save me some money

Samuli Vahonen wrote:
...
85mm is typically considered as portrait focal length. However for some weird reasons Zeiss designed the 1.4/85 so that it's optimized to infinity and doesn't have floating element. I use it only for "environmental portraits" (full body visible or even less magnification) at f/1.4. See example below....
quote]


Edited on Mar 07, 2010 at 04:48 PM · View previous versions



Mar 07, 2010 at 04:35 PM
formula4speed
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p.12 #16 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)








When I go out, my pooch will stand at the kitchen window with her head resting on the window sill until I come back. 5DII and ZE 50 1.4, really starting to enjoy the 50mm focal length because of this lens.



Mar 07, 2010 at 04:40 PM
Toothwalker
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p.12 #17 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


Samuli Vahonen wrote:
Like Philippe says it's mostly problem on close-ups and middle distances. At infinity it's mostly covered by DOF. Also focus shift is pretty small at infinity - lens has least amount of aberrations at infinity - uncorrected aberrations are partial cause for focus shift according to Lloyd and some other sources, specially uncorrected spherical aberrations


The phenomenon of focus shift is best examined at the side of the lens where one finds the focus. Thus you should think depth of focus, not depth of field. At a given aperture, the depth of focus does not vary much over the distance scale of the 1.4/85 (but if you want to take it into account: it is larger at close focus). Your second explanation is the correct one: the lens suffers less from spherical aberration for large subject distances.



Mar 07, 2010 at 05:31 PM
mark1958
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p.12 #18 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


I think the zeiss 50 is absolutely unbeatable. I really love it. I got the 100 too. It is good but the advantage it has over other lenses at the same focal length is less apparent. I am deciding to keep the Zeiss or Leica 100mm apo 2.8. They both have their pluses and minuses.

wayne seltzer wrote:
Mark,
Beautiful Calla lilly shot with the 50 MP!
A few weeks back I was taking some shots of them with all my 50's.
How are liking the 50 MP?




Mar 07, 2010 at 05:55 PM
joekraft
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p.12 #19 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


philber that overhead street scene is wonderful. Thanks for posting these. Your portrait of the lady shot at 3.2 looks very sharp. It certainly makes these concerns posted in the reviews seem overstated. Did you ever shoot anything similar wide open?


Mar 07, 2010 at 11:24 PM
adamdewilde
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p.12 #20 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


joekraft - I went and tested the 85, I suggest you do the same if you can. Here is what happened to me, now this could be user error. Maybe someone can chime in.

Had 100MP on, took a shot from about 6ft away of a 85mm lens, the cap was a few inches in front. The shot turned out sharp on the lens. Then I put my 100MP where the 85 was and put the 85 on camera, I focused at the 100MP and the cap was blurry, when I took the shot, the cap was sharp and the lens was blurry.. Now again this could be user error, but if this sounds like focus shift to anyone on here, rather then user error, then I'd stay away from the lens. Because for me, the 85 would be a head and shoulder portrait lens. Something I can do with the 100MP.

I'm guessing half body it starts to get better, but for headshots, maybe it's not gonna happen.

I'm glad the 50MP doesn't do this, as it might be worth looking into. But then I'll have no low light lenses left
I guess I'm going to be forced to keep the 50 1.4 canon, and canon 85 1.8, they are pretty decently lenses and if the lighting conditions are right, they can take good photos. So in which case I may just invest in the 28 or 35 although most people seem to be convincing me the 35 is the way to go. I will look over my lightroom files to see what length I use more.

Joe, good luck with your decision.



Mar 08, 2010 at 12:43 AM
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