JazzyMac wrote:
As one who actually read the newbies thread upon registering FM, I would have found the newest statement humorous, but as a good forewarning to folks who are truly "newbs" (myself).
Is having a website another requirement for this forum? If so, Mr. Baines...get to work!
I'm laughing out loud at the constant reference to trolls. This thread is still moving..on page six now!
Long time member rare poster here (feels like the begining of an Anonymous meeting )
I'm not here to defend or condem anyone on this thread but I think there's something that might be said.
The volume of solid advice, suggestions, heck in some cases business models and actions in this forum seems to me to be a little higher caliber, or at the very least without as much "I'm a Pro and you're not so you're not worth my time" mentality as a lot of other forums. Even here on certain FM forums it can seem almost as if you mention you're not dyed in the wool or feeding your family solely on Photography alone you're dismissed.
The people in general in the wedding forums tend to be more open or at least open minded with people coming in asking the same question for the 50th time.
Posts like Evans sticky have saved me personally from wasting time trolling forums for certain mindsets in how to approach photography as a business. When I started pushing myself to cutting the corporate chain (someday I am sure I will, just not yet) I set out 3 phases in no particular order:
1. know your gear
2. know your business
3. know your vision
it sounds like the original poster is working on #3 and having issues with #1.
Some places that might help with the mechanics are the lighting forum here or even Digital Photography School for camera or set up specifics. One thing that FM doesn't have is a "new to cameras section", nor do I think it should. I'd rather read posts from people who do this daily and have some other venue to look to that cover that aspect very well. But I think that may be why people see it more frequently in fourms like this one.
fotorelic wrote:
On the contrary, I think what one would expect to find is, at the very least, courteous comments about 'where to go'. All you need do is to politely say that the OP might find their answers and support on another/beginner forum.
As for item A--how is a beginner going to know what level of beginner question belongs where? Item B could have been avoided altogether. Item C--I'm sorry I agree with Jazzy on this. Not clear enough that you (collectively) mean, "Dedicated to Professional Wedding Photography...so if you are an amateur with beginner questions, don't post".
fotorelic,
are you for real?
No seriously.
Do you not see the difference between this "AMATEUR WEDDING PHOTOGRAPHER" question: "Hi, I will be shooting my first wedding next Sunday, the venue does not allow flash photography, so I will be relying on my 70-200 2.8 to get shots from the back of the church. Do you have any suggestions as to the best place to position myself as a second shooter to be able to shoot both the Bride/Father entrance and the mom's reaction?"
and this "AMATEUR LOOKY LOOKY I HAVE A CAMERA" question: "Hi, I will be shooting my first wedding next Sunday. When the light is low I get shaking images, even with flash and I try all the different modes but it doesn't help how do I avoid the blurry?"
Ok, I'm exagerating here... but let's not be stoopid here... this is NOT intended as a BEGINNING PHOTOGRAPHER forum.
Well actually that's part of the problem... maybe some people think they can go out, buy a DSLR and learn how to take photos at people's weddings. Well that idea frankly disgusts me. Go shoot some flowers, a bottle and a table. In art school they teach you to start with "still life" for two reasons:
1. you can learn all the basics of painting by painting grapes and wine bottles
2. it's rude to a model to expect her to sit there while you figure out that mixing red and yellow gives .... oh look: ORANGE!!! Who-hoo!
From my experience lurking and posting here, amateurs are welcome. But, they are expected to do some pretty basic stuff to earn that welcome, like maybe read a few posts and actually be aware of the environment they are in.
Like every other Internet forum, it pays to hang out and actually read the Wedding Forum a little bit before getting an account and posting. Maybe even search for similar topics (shocking, I know!).
As Evan mentioned, this response was 100% predictable to anybody paying attention. Ignorant posting is not really any different than intentional trolling.
as a new comer myself compared to some of the veterans on here .. here is what i think
this forum can be a bit rude at times and sometimes even very put-offish. but seriously if you want to learn, you have to have a very thick skin and be able to take the bluntness of this forum. if you are looking to be hand held, this really isn't the forum for it.
after spending alot of time on here .. this and like any other forums, there are a clique of guys/gals here that have spend their time together and grown together and have proven or shown themselves that they actually know this business and can make $$ from it .. now imagine, going back to the mechanic theory, a master mechanic is being asked every day at his shop by just about anyone, "which tools should i start with?" "should i replace the piston in a Rotary engine?" "what books should i read?" stuff like that .. it can be very annoying and most would become a bit crazy ..
my point is this .. instead of asking, how about spend alittle time reading the threads and most stickies. I know I sound like most, but the search function on any forum is very helpful and it will cover 90% of the questions or concerns you already have or is going through ..
I have posted my questions on here and posted my images for review .. some got ripped apart and some where just ignored. heck, my last post of images, most of the reviews were all about the boots of what the girl wore . but honestly, there can be a great deal of help here and a great deal of pros as well that can really help in the business side and technique side!
basically .. stop taking anything on here said to or about you personally .. take it with a grain of salt and if you dont agree with what this forum is saying .. there are tons of others that will fit your tastes!
last thing .. if you need to be warned about the "rudeness" of this forum .. there is always POTN which really serves the starting guys with starter kits alot of good.
lisy78--I've read your post several times now, and I truly did not understand what you were trying to say to me on first reading, insults aside.
If you are saying that only certain amateur photography questions are OK on this forum, and others aren't, based on motivation, I would say that most amateurs don't know when they asking the second kind of amateur question, or that it is not a good thing. You are asking an amateur to make a distinction which he or she is probably not even aware of.
This is why I suggested the notice, which has been implemented and which I think is great. I don't see why an amateur should be expected to take the temperature of a forum before posting, I really don't. Many disagree, and many disagree about amateur 'responsiblity', but I would point out that the notice does not hurt, does it? And it might actually help.
Enough already, really... what is the purpose of this back-and-forth?
Noobs are going to continue to come to this forum. Some will be flamed for their stupid questions and lack of respect for what we do and not knowing how to do a little work for themselves. And those noobs will have their feelings hurt, tough. Hopefully they'll never pick up their camera again, which they don't know how to use anyways, and we'll have one less uncle Bob to deal with.
Then there will be the noobs who ask intelligent questions who have at least the most basic understanding of how things work (because they've read up on the basics of camera controls and put in some time to practice themselves), and those will be the ones we help, and they will likely prosper in these forums. And those would be a joy to have uncle Bob'ing with me... those will be the courteous ones who stay out of your way and study what you do to improve themselves rather than just getting in the way.
The root problem here is that the OP represents something every professional wedding photographer has come to resent... And that is the notion that what we do is easy. People think "Oh, all you do is push buttons, and I could do what he does if I had that expensive camera and lens." Yeah, well there's a bit more to it than that, and it's frankly offensive that someone is posting on a WEDDING PHOTOGRAPHER (not wedding photography, but photographER) saying that they got their new DSLR and essentially they thought they'd just TRY shooting a wedding even though they don't have a clue what they're doing. No he wasn't paid, but that's not the point. That you would even ATTEMPT to shoot one of the most difficult subjects in the world of photography without even understanding what camera-shake is... that's flat out offensive to A) think you can shoot a wedding with that level of skill B) ask for a spoon-feeding of such basic information that shows that you really couldn't care less about photography in the first place or you'd have read up on EXPOSURE, or at least what those buttons do...
It just pisses people off, and that's why this has gone to 7 pages. It is what it is. You don't eat a lemon and then scold it for being sour.
I'm still having a hard time understanding how people got the idea that:
1) I'm brand-spanking new to photography. I had done research. I never alluded to the contrary. However, I am not a person who can learn just by reading. The best thing for me to do to learn is to jump head-first into something and trying to figure out what went wrong afterward. When I learned to play the guitar, trombone, and banjo, I started with hard songs and then filled in what I learned in those songs with more technical knowledge.
I "googled" the problems I had, but nothing came about that really told me what I did wrong, which is why I came here.
2) I don't know what camera shake is. Of course I know what it is. My main concern about the wedding is that the photos didn't work even when I had my camera setting a solid surface. I realize now that I just had screwed up a lot of things, which is what I am going to learn from.
3) I think wedding photography is easy. I never even thought of such a thing. Where did that come from? I've done family shoots and new-born shoots, and I appreciate the difficulties of those situations, so of course a wedding will be more extreme.
I have physical limitations and I thought the wedding a good friend, with consent and NOT by myself, would be a good way to figure out if I could handle the physical tax of being a wedding photographer. I would rather not learn during a complete stranger's wedding, or completely walk away from it without ever knowing for sure.
(and, by the way, I could not handle the pain I was in when the wedding was over; therefore I am not going to be a paid wedding photographer)
Perhaps I wasn't eloquent enough or didn't cover enough in my first post, or said a few things incorrectly or stupidly, or whatever. O.k. Lesson learned. Cover every single base before I post and be more technical.
Yes, I deleted it. I didn't think it was important enough to start such feuds and to brew hatred or animosity. I'm sorry that rubbed many of you the wrong way.
And I came back with a third one because I had seen that some people were really trying to help me. And I did get the advice I desired, so I really appreciate that. I will take that advice, learn it, use it, and hopefully never have to ask this forum stupid questions again.
I acknowledge that a lot of the comments I received were full of advice, even early on before I deleted the post, but I also felt like the advice had teeth - huge teeth. Giving advice with teeth is not completely necessary. I understand why a lot of people had teeth, but I still do not find it incredibly necessary.
If you were a member of a gym - a very enthusiastic weight lifter or jogger, would you scorn someone who had a trial membership? If that person came up to you and asked you how to work a machine or how to get the best results out of it, would you say "I'm not on a salary to answer your questions" or get wrapped up in semantics and start a debate?
I'd hope not.
ugh. it's not even worth the energy to go back and pull your original post. but from memory, before your endless clarifications, you said "the bride and good (sic. groom) knew i had no experience."
well, golly! that's where we get the idea that you have no experience. gee whiz. now i'm just annoyed.
. but honestly, there can be a great deal of help here and a great deal of pros as well that can really help in the business side and technique side! 