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Archive 2009 · Leica M9 review in this weeks AP mag (UK)

  
 
SoundHound
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p.2 #1 · Leica M9 review in this weeks AP mag (UK)


M9 obsolescence is turning obsolete-already! Nikon have announced their super hi-ISO D3s and Canon, in 3 days (soon?), their Mk IV (likely to eclipse the M9 even with a 1.3x crop). Obviously, NiCan have FF next generation sensors in the pipeline too.

Leica is, as usual, 1 or two generations behind SoNiCan. Their reputation rest on, easy to design, legacy, non retrofocus lenses. How can the M9 be a current digital camera when it sports crippled software (it can barely expose @ 2FPS) and a fuzzy LCD, etc??



Oct 17, 2009 at 09:43 PM
James R
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p.2 #2 · Leica M9 review in this weeks AP mag (UK)


Feel better?


Oct 17, 2009 at 10:17 PM
Spyro P.
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p.2 #3 · Leica M9 review in this weeks AP mag (UK)


PhotoMaximum wrote:
I have discussed this with a Leica owning buddy of mine. He assures me that he plans on shooting with the M9 "for years"...


Yeah right... and two years later the M10 comes out with a nice modified CMOS sensor that does 3-5fps, instant recording, clean ISO12800, 50MP (or whatever) and live view that allows you to use any lens, close focus to macro levels and preview dof, and before you know it you feel like you're skiing on last year's snow again. Or worse, CV/Zeiss or whoever spits out the same thing at 1/3 of the price and suddenly you're struggling to even ditch your M9 in the used market at half what you paid.

I'm with PhotoMaximum, the digital market is not the same as the film market. Awesome cameras, you get what you need, but you do it more often and you deal with the depreciation. "For years" is a dead notion. There was a time that you bought a Leica and 20 years later you handed it over to your kid. If I do that in 20 years my (now 2 month old) daughter will probably piss herself laughing, take out her ipod and snap a 20 Terapixel hologram of me holding my Leica

Edited on Oct 17, 2009 at 11:02 PM · View previous versions



Oct 17, 2009 at 10:44 PM
Lotusm50
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p.2 #4 · Leica M9 review in this weeks AP mag (UK)


SoundHound wrote:
M9 obsolescence is turning obsolete-already! Nikon have announced their super hi-ISO D3s and Canon, in 3 days (soon?), their Mk IV (likely to eclipse the M9 even with a 1.3x crop). Obviously, NiCan have FF next generation sensors in the pipeline too.

Leica is, as usual, 1 or two generations behind SoNiCan. Their reputation rest on, easy to design, legacy, non retrofocus lenses. How can the M9 be a current digital camera when it sports crippled software (it can barely expose @ 2FPS) and a fuzzy LCD, etc??



Wow. I don't think this is a fair or reasonable assessment at all -- and I am often critical of Leica in this forum. From everything I see, the M9 looks to be a competitive product (in terms of IQ) if expensive. For the people that use it, in the way that they use it, it doesn't need 2FPS -- it never has. Lot's of applications that don't need 2FPS. As for, "easy to design, non-retrofocus lenses" that is just lacks insight and understanding of what Leica lens designs are. Improving the design of symmetrical lenses is just as challenging as it is for retro-focus lenses and Leica continues to innovate and advance the art and science of lens design. After all the advances in SLR lenses, Leica's rangefinder lenses continue to advance as well and continue to hold an advantage -- they are challenging, complex state-of-the art designs. To suggest or imply otherwise is just not accurate. Yes, the D3s has just arrived and is indeed the high-ISO king. So? The M9 will smoke it at low ISO's. As with FPS, choose the tool for the job at hand. I don't ever need 14 fps and 102,400 ISO. If I did, I would buy a D3s. But to be honest, an M9 would suit my needs better. A canon 1D MkIV? We'll see it when we see it, but it will be a product more like the D3s -- and tool for a need different than the M9 and not competitive with the M9 for ultimate IQ.

It seems to me, and I suspect many others, that for it's intended uses, the M9 is competitive, not obsolete at all, and represents a compelling manifestation vor embodiment of current generation technology. Will it be for everyone? No. Rangefinders aren't for everyone or for every use. I suspect, however, for those that can afford it, there will be many happy and satisfied users who will produce images that are every bit as good as any top of the line SoNiCan camera can produce in the same situation, if not better. Nothing on the short-term horizon from any manufacturer threatens to change that anytime soon.




Oct 17, 2009 at 10:59 PM
PhotoMaximum
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p.2 #5 · Leica M9 review in this weeks AP mag (UK)


Please don't think I am on a anti Leica crusade here. Far from it. Look at my avatar. I love my IIIF.

I am sure that all of the folks who work hard on aligning their finances to get one will be thrilled once they get the M9. Many will have to save their money diligently to do so. It also sounds like many will be selling other camera and lens systems so they can afford to make the swap.

But this is not a film "M" series camera. What happens six, nine, twelve, or eighteen months after this camera is released? The relationship between camera development and time has changed so much.

The M9 could be one of "those" great cameras that become legendary. Or it could fast become one of those cameras that was soon eclipsed by something else. Maybe by Leica, Canon, Nikon, or even Pentax. Who knows?



Oct 17, 2009 at 11:00 PM
Lotusm50
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p.2 #6 · Leica M9 review in this weeks AP mag (UK)


PhotoMaximum wrote:
The M9 could be one of "those" great cameras that become legendary. Or it could fast become one of those cameras that was soon eclipsed by something else. Maybe by Leica, Canon, Nikon, or even Pentax. Who knows?



But hat is something we accept with the state of digital technology today. The problem with the Leica as I see it is the price. Given that it might indeed be superseded in 2 or 3 years, the price is a little hard to justify. Built and priced like a long-tern capital investment, but as dictated by the path of technology, essentially used as a short-term disposable tool (we'll see if Leica's plan for upgrade-ability pans out, it didn't last long for the M8).




Oct 17, 2009 at 11:10 PM
James R
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p.2 #7 · Leica M9 review in this weeks AP mag (UK)


PhotoMax,

You make the M9 sound like it cost 20K. It's priced less than a D3X and around a 1DS3. Expensive yes, but, hardly anymore outrageous than the new top end Canon and Nikon. The glass is expensive, but, you only need a few lenses; where the DSLR owners tend to have many more at fairly high prices. And cameras are becoming obsolete quickly with DSLRs due to the intense competition between the major DSLR manufacturers. Leica is in a niche field that doesn't change every year. Simplicity is the mantra of RFs. Technology seems to be the mantra of Canon, Nikon and Sony.

BTW, all cameras are eclipsed at some point. Me, I intend to keep my D3 for a few more years and maybe add an M9--who knows and, who should really care other than me.



Oct 17, 2009 at 11:26 PM
James R
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p.2 #8 · Leica M9 review in this weeks AP mag (UK)


Lotusm50 wrote:
But hat is something we accept with the state of digital technology today. The problem with the Leica as I see it is the price. Given that it might indeed be superseded in 2 or 3 years, the price is a little hard to justify. Built and priced like a long-tern capital investment, but as dictated by the path of technology, essentially used as a short-term disposable tool (we'll see if Leica's plan for upgrade-ability pans out, it didn't last long for the M8).



The M8 was released 3 years ago. The D3 2 years ago. Canon shooters have been wondering how much longer before the 1D3 is replaced. In my book, cameras are not long term investments. Some will keep their cameras longer than others, but, the lure of bigger and better drives the market.



Oct 17, 2009 at 11:36 PM
anorphirith
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p.2 #9 · Leica M9 review in this weeks AP mag (UK)


Spyro P. wrote:
Yeah right... and two years later the M10 comes out with a nice modified CMOS sensor that does 3-5fps, instant recording, clean ISO12800, 50MP (or whatever) and live view that allows you to use any lens, close focus to macro levels and preview dof, and before you know it you feel like you're skiing on last year's snow again. Or worse, CV/Zeiss or whoever spits out the same thing at 1/3 of the price and suddenly you're struggling to even ditch your M9 in the used market at half what you paid.

I'm with PhotoMaximum, the digital market is
...Show more
+1



Oct 17, 2009 at 11:45 PM
Spyro P.
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p.2 #10 · Leica M9 review in this weeks AP mag (UK)


James R wrote:
Simplicity is the mantra of RFs. Technology seems to be the mantra of Canon, Nikon and Sony.


Yes, but once you put electronics in the camera, simplicity goes out the window and you are as depended on technology that changes every day as CaSoNikon. And in Leica's case this technology affects stuff that people worry about such as high iso, resolution, ability to use certain lenses or focus to certain distances, frames per second.

And I dont think we should compare the m9 to other cameras, we should think of it as a Leica in its own right. Is it worth the same as the Leicas of the past? One of the main reasons why people were willing to pay film Leica's prices and what usually tipped the scales for them is this. This is Gary Winogrand's M4, bought somewhere in the 70's, used to death for 30-40 years and still being used today. And wouldn't you use it? It works fine, and most importanly, as far as 35mm film cameras go, even today, it really doesnt get much better than a nice M4. You dont feel bad using it, the other film cameras might have different features but overall they are not necessarily better. And it actually looks better old

Whereas the m9 is based on technology that is cutting edge today (maybe), but obsolete tomorrow. An M9's future will probably be the same as any CaSoNikon. In 1-2 year intervals:
Sell at half price -> sell at quarter price -> sell at 1/8 price -> storage/tip

This is what bugs me with digital Leicas. Although I like them, I just dont feel I'd get the same value as you'd get from a Leica in the past, it doesnt have the longevity that used to tip the scales. I feel like I'm buying a tshirt, not a leather jacket.



Oct 17, 2009 at 11:51 PM
James R
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p.2 #11 · Leica M9 review in this weeks AP mag (UK)


Spyro,

What's important with any camera are the moments it captures. Why do people get bothered by the price of cameras and why people would pay that price? On the Nikon board, people were incensed at the D3X's price tag. In this case, if you don't want to spend 7K on a Leica, don't! But, why are non-Leica owners so concerned about its latest release. That would be like me complaining on the Canon thread about a Canon release. I don't shoot Canon, why should I care if other Canon shooters are willing to adopt the latest Canon?

BTW, a Leica is far more simplistic than a D3 or any high end Canon.



Oct 18, 2009 at 12:18 AM
Lotusm50
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p.2 #12 · Leica M9 review in this weeks AP mag (UK)


James R wrote:
The M8 was released 3 years ago. The D3 2 years ago. Canon shooters have been wondering how much longer before the 1D3 is replaced. In my book, cameras are not long term investments. Some will keep their cameras longer than others, but, the lure of bigger and better drives the market.



I assume you realize that was essentially my point..




Oct 18, 2009 at 12:22 AM
Lotusm50
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p.2 #13 · Leica M9 review in this weeks AP mag (UK)


James R wrote:
BTW, a Leica is far more simplistic than a D3 or any high end Canon.



Ummm. I'm not sure what you mean by this. I don't think you really mean "simplistic".




Oct 18, 2009 at 12:27 AM
James R
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p.2 #14 · Leica M9 review in this weeks AP mag (UK)


Lotusm50 wrote:
I assume you realize that was essentially my point..



Your point lacked mention of other camera makers. The issue is true for all high end cameras, not just Leica. If it is true of all, then the point becomes meaningless.



Oct 18, 2009 at 12:29 AM
Spyro P.
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p.2 #15 · Leica M9 review in this weeks AP mag (UK)


James R wrote:
Spyro,

Why do people get bothered by the price of cameras and why people would pay that price?


James, nah, I dont get bothered really and people should do whatever pleases them, thats what I do. When it comes to cameras I always get what I want sooner or later regardless of price. Just trying do explain why I dont want an M9 as much as I wanted other Leicas. Of all material things, Leica used to be the most representative of that "with you forever" quality that is now gone. From most things actually, not just cameras. That quality was always part of the Leica price and the alure.

But its a gear forum, so yeah, I acknowledge its a great tool for some applications.


Edited on Oct 18, 2009 at 12:34 AM · View previous versions



Oct 18, 2009 at 12:31 AM
James R
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p.2 #16 · Leica M9 review in this weeks AP mag (UK)


Lotusm50 wrote:
Ummm. I'm not sure what you mean by this. I don't think you really mean "simplistic".




OK, use a Leica is simpler to operate than a D3 or any high end Canon.



Oct 18, 2009 at 12:31 AM
James R
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p.2 #17 · Leica M9 review in this weeks AP mag (UK)


I need a life. Saturday night, the wife is sleeping and I sit here watching the Angels lose and discussing a camera I don't own.


Oct 18, 2009 at 12:34 AM
Spyro P.
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p.2 #18 · Leica M9 review in this weeks AP mag (UK)


Same, off to grab a beer, nice talking to you
(just turned FM to a chat room, sorry)



Oct 18, 2009 at 12:35 AM
James R
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p.2 #19 · Leica M9 review in this weeks AP mag (UK)


What the hell, I have 3 Coronas in the fridge--good idea.


Oct 18, 2009 at 12:38 AM
ashrafazlan
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p.2 #20 · Leica M9 review in this weeks AP mag (UK)


M9? Bah! Leica MP, come to daddy


Oct 18, 2009 at 01:58 AM
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