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Archive 2009 · New Zeiss ZE lens 28mm f2

  
 
philber
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p.4 #1 · New Zeiss ZE lens 28mm f2


We will see what the distributor says. My dealer will request another lens, and I will try again. My copy had nothing in common with the one tested by Diglloyd as linked by Edwardkaraa.


Oct 25, 2009 at 02:01 PM
bluetsunami
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p.4 #2 · New Zeiss ZE lens 28mm f2


That's too bad to hear, philber. This lens is definitely a lock for me at some point so I hope I don't hear of more issues with this particular lens. And yeah, your 21/2.8 shots are fantastic.


Oct 25, 2009 at 02:52 PM
philber
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p.4 #3 · New Zeiss ZE lens 28mm f2


I tested the lens again, and sorted out the mis-focusing with vigorous micro-adjust. But the CA is definitely there at an unacceptable level, which I determined by cross-checking that the ZE 21 displayed none inder the same circumstances. As nobody else mentioned CA with teh ZF/ZE 28, my guess s that it is a one-off problem. It is being sent back to Zeiss for testing. Another sample may be sent to me if this one is felt to be less-than-up-to-spec.


Oct 27, 2009 at 12:55 PM
Specularist
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p.4 #4 · New Zeiss ZE lens 28mm f2


philber wrote:
I tested the lens again, and sorted out the mis-focusing with vigorous micro-adjust. But the CA is definitely there at an unacceptable level, which I determined by cross-checking that the ZE 21 displayed none inder the same circumstances. As nobody else mentioned CA with teh ZF/ZE 28, my guess s that it is a one-off problem. It is being sent back to Zeiss for testing. Another sample may be sent to me if this one is felt to be less-than-up-to-spec.


Zeiss launched a serious attack on lateral CA with the 21 mm. It still suffers from CA, but less so than any competing lens including the remarkably good 14-24 mm Nikkor. However the Zeiss 28 mm f/2 has plenty of CA. So unless your CA is worse than the substantial by-design CA of this lens, another sample won't solve the problem.



Oct 27, 2009 at 01:45 PM
Lotusm50
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p.4 #5 · New Zeiss ZE lens 28mm f2


Specularist wrote:
Zeiss launched a serious attack on lateral CA with the 21 mm. It still suffers from CA, but less so than any competing lens including the remarkably good 14-24 mm Nikkor. However the Zeiss 28 mm f/2 has plenty of CA. So unless your CA is worse than the substantial by-design CA of this lens, another sample won't solve the problem.



This goes to the crux of the issue I have with Zeiss. If Zeiss thought it was so important to minimize lateral CA in the 21mm, why did they not think it was important to minimize it in their other ZF wide angle lenses? This is not to say that the other ZF wide angles are particularly bad with respect to lateral CA, just that there is a significant difference in their performance here relative to the 21mm. Why does Zeiss think that is acceptable? Similarly, curvature of filed is much better controlled in the 21mm but much less so in the 28/2. Again, why? Why is it acceptable in one lens but not in the other? If they can produce these achievements in the 21mm, surely they can do them in a 28mm. What is Zeiss' logic/reasoning/criteria for the individual lenses and the lens line as a whole? I confess that it escapes me and I wish they were a little more transparent about their intentions and reasoning.





Oct 27, 2009 at 03:06 PM
Specularist
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p.4 #6 · New Zeiss ZE lens 28mm f2


Lotusm50 wrote:
This goes to the crux of the issue I have with Zeiss. If Zeiss thought it was so important to minimize lateral CA in the 21mm, why did they not think it was important to minimize it in their other ZF wide angle lenses? This is not to say that the other ZF wide angles are particularly bad with respect to lateral CA, just that there is a significant difference in their performance here relative to the 21mm. Why does Zeiss think that is acceptable? Similarly, curvature of filed is much better controlled in the 21mm but much less so
...Show more

Perhaps they do this simply because they can. The Zeiss brand will sell lenses even if they're not all flawless gems. Of course it would dilute the Zeiss brand, but these days everyone is burning up brand equity in this way.

That would be unsustainable though, because the Zeiss cachet is largely based on past optical quality. In ten years today's Zeiss lenses will be the past glories of Zeiss, and a couple of them are somewhat inglorious...

Of course there are other, better reasons for lenses to differ in performance. The Zeiss lenses vary significantly in price, for a start. Some of them are surprisingly affordable given their high build quality and limited sales volume, but the 21 mm is expensive. And it's priced that way despite its relatively modest aperture and focal length. Zeiss could therefore afford to blast the troublesome CA with a dose of exotic glass and fully sixteen lens elements.

(I know it seems strange to declare a 21 mm f/2.8 "modest", but in an age of 17 mm tilt-shift, 24 mm f/1.4, and 14-24 mm f/2.8 zoom lenses, there are limits to my gullibility!)

So why might the 28 mm f/2 be different from the 21 mm f/2.8? Well, it's obviously a stop faster: no trivial matter. It's also significantly cheaper, much smaller, and more focused on central sharpness (in order to get good contrast wide open at f/2). It's clearly not a lens designed for shooting landscapes, though it can be pressed into such service. It's instead a handheld, out-and-about, people-and-places kind of lens. As such it excels. For its price, you're not going to find higher performance at 28 mm and f/2 from anyone. The field curvature is unproblematic or even beneficial for most large-aperture, mid-range, people shots.

The 25 mm f/2.8 is small, affordable, and optically lovely. It does have a little lateral CA and field curvature too; but not bad considering its price. This lens also has the best resistance to flare and ghosting of any lens I know. It's perfect for shooting outdoors at night.

The much-maligned 18 mm f/3.5 is remarkably compact. Compare its optical arrangement to that of the Nikkor Auto 20 mm f/4 of 1974, which was designed specifically to be small. Notice the similarities? The Zeiss is of course optically better, yet retains pleasingly small dimensions. But in the original ZF press release Zeiss made no mention of the lens' compactness, which to my mind is its principle attraction! This was corrected for the ZE press release, which briefly stated:

"Despite its short focal length, the Distagon T* 3,5/18 ZE has an extremely compact design compared to other zoom lenses in its category. Internal focusing also helps to reduce its size while delivering extremely precise and smooth focus control."

So Zeiss is learning. Their marketing efforts aren't great, and their lens line is very incoherent, but each lens does have its strong points. I'm just grateful they make mechanically satisfying lenses while Canon and Nikon are selling expensive "pro" lenses made of plastic and silicon.



Oct 27, 2009 at 06:46 PM
Valorin
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p.4 #7 · New Zeiss ZE lens 28mm f2


I think it's unrealistic to expect too many Zeiss lenses up to the standard of the 21. The 21 has 16 elements, the 28 and 25 have 10. That's a pretty big difference. They probably could make a really nice 25 f/2.8 with 15 elements but it would be fairly large and I guess Zeiss doesn't think they'd sell enough. Personally, having used it fairly extensively, the 25 is a nice compromise. In fact, I would even like a smaller 21 that doesn't have a flared front that cost a bit less with inferior performance. I like my 21 as is, but it's a bit bulky.

On the flip side wouldn't it be really neat to see Zeiss flex it's optical design muscles by making a set of lenses with uncompromising image quality at any cost. I wouldn't be able to afford it, but it would be awesome to see.



Oct 27, 2009 at 07:26 PM
John Black
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p.4 #8 · New Zeiss ZE lens 28mm f2


If the Zeiss 28/2 ZE matches (or betters) the performance of the Contax 28/2, I'll be happy. F2 on the Contax 28mm was, shall we say - distinctive? Most of the thrill with the Contax 28mm F2 @ F2 or F2.8 was with closer subjects. Around F4 it began to morph into a nice landscape lens. At F5.6 its corners were perfect on my 1Ds2. My 28mm should be here in a day or two. Looking forward to it.


Oct 27, 2009 at 09:56 PM
Jeffrey
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p.4 #9 · New Zeiss ZE lens 28mm f2


Lotsa talk about the performance of these lenses wide open. I rarely shoot open, and am more interested in the performance from f8 to f16 (what's the minimum, f22?).


Oct 27, 2009 at 10:43 PM
bluetsunami
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p.4 #10 · New Zeiss ZE lens 28mm f2


On the flip side wouldn't it be really neat to see Zeiss flex it's optical design muscles by making a set of lenses with uncompromising image quality at any cost. I wouldn't be able to afford it, but it would be awesome to see.

Out of pure curiosity I recently read about the current lineup of Arri Zeiss Master Primes (for Cinematography) and those lenses are ridiculous.

Here's a link to a technical breakdown of their Cinema lenses...

http://www.arri.de/camera/lenses/35_format_lenses/master_primes.html#_blank



Oct 27, 2009 at 11:21 PM
Lotusm50
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p.4 #11 · New Zeiss ZE lens 28mm f2


Specularist wrote:
Perhaps they do this simply because they can. The Zeiss brand will sell lenses even if they're not all flawless gems. Of course it would dilute the Zeiss brand, but these days everyone is burning up brand equity in this way.

That would be unsustainable though, because the Zeiss cachet is largely based on past optical quality. In ten years today's Zeiss lenses will be the past glories of Zeiss, and a couple of them are somewhat inglorious...

Of course there are other, better reasons for lenses to differ in performance. The Zeiss lenses vary significantly in price, for a start. Some
...Show more


Yes, Zeiss has a long way to go in how the market, advertise and communicate the intended (or recommended) uses for particular lenses. Asd it stands, everyone seems to compare the ZF 18, 25, and 28mm lenses to the 21mm. Little in Zeiss' descriptions of these lenses would lead purchasers to do otherwise. As you suggest they are all designed to different criteria and compromises. However, this doesn't help much if you are looking for a well-corrected 28mm or 18mm lens that has typical Zeiss attributes. Further, while many of these lenses are designed to meet price points, they still appear to be expensive relative to competitor products. Most consumers don't consider Zeiss to make cost-compromised products. They expect them to be universally excellent. With this, the ZF line doesn't really meet or perhaps attempt to meet what consumers expect. Then, when they discover that the product don 't perform expected their reaction and comments are more negative and disparaging than warranted. Just read the comments on this and other forums. I don't think this serves Zeiss well. This is the one aspect of the Zeiss' market strategy with the ZF lenses that I think was not well thought out.

I agree with the commenter that would like to see "Zeiss flex it's optical design muscles by making a set of lenses with uncompromising image quality at any cost". It would serve to meet what people expect from Zeiss and cement their reputation. They could then, with adequate differentiation of the product line, produce the ZF lenses as a "consumer" line. As it is now, the ZF as Zeiss' primary product line, without Zeiss being totally upfront about it, the ZF's may be slowly undermining Zeiss reputation.

That said, I thoroughly agree that the ZF 25mm is "optically lovely". Not perfect, but its few flaws are unobtrusive, and it excels in other areas. Really, a wonderful lens that I am quite happy with.




Oct 27, 2009 at 11:51 PM
edwardkaraa
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p.4 #12 · New Zeiss ZE lens 28mm f2


Well, don't we all like to have a "super" Zeiss line of Ubersharp lenses, no CA, no vignetting, no distortion whatsoever. However, if you think Leica glass is expensive, wait until you hear the price on these ones.

I agree with the posters above that each lens has an ideal usage depending on its strengths and weaknesses. The 28/2 is definitely a reportage lens. It can be certainly used to shoot landscapes stopped down at f/8-11 but you'll get invariably better border/corner results with the 35, 25, and above all the 21.

Zeiss has shown with the 4 ZA lenses that it is still able to significantly improve on the older designs. Too bad that Sony has exclusivity over these ones.



Oct 27, 2009 at 11:54 PM
Lotusm50
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p.4 #13 · New Zeiss ZE lens 28mm f2


edwardkaraa wrote:
Zeiss has shown with the 4 ZA lenses that it is still able to significantly improve on the older designs. Too bad that Sony has exclusivity over these ones.



But I would also say that most the ZF lenses are also significant improvements over older Contax Zeiss designs. This is clearly true of the 18, 25, 28, 35, 50MP and 100MP lenses, even though the 18 and 28 don't seem to get much credit for it.




Oct 28, 2009 at 12:05 AM
lovinglife
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p.4 #14 · New Zeiss ZE lens 28mm f2


brainiac wrote:
I never understand this whole stop-down metering thing. I just set the aperture I want to use, focus, and shoot.

lol +1!



Oct 28, 2009 at 12:07 AM
n0b0
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p.4 #15 · New Zeiss ZE lens 28mm f2


Well this is bloody disappointing. I was really interested in this lens as my normal lens on a crop body, seeing as how people are talking about the legendary 3D-like zeiss IQ. I guess I'll get that Sigma 30mm EX after all, since Canon's 28mm lenses aren't worth the money.


Oct 28, 2009 at 02:46 AM
philber
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p.4 #16 · New Zeiss ZE lens 28mm f2


As far as I am concerned it is too early to call the situation disappointing. I was looking for 2 Zeiss lenses to extend my focal range wider than 50mm. If the 28 which I turned down is in fact typical, then I need to try the 35mm, which is very highly regarded, or see if the new 35 f:1.4 does indeed show up. Considering the excellence of the 21mm, I feel that it is too early to throw the baby away with the bathwater. Specularist, Lotus, others, care to comment on the 35mm f:2?


Oct 28, 2009 at 02:56 AM
slungu
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p.4 #17 · New Zeiss ZE lens 28mm f2


Ok, since I have its acestor, I have to defend the 28/2 a little.
I would be surprised if the new ZE 28/2 is worse than the old C/Y. And that is a nice lens, that I enjoy a lot. Now, if everybody is comparing the whole ZE lineup to the ZE 21mm, I wonder why we did not do that with the old C/Y lineup. "In those days" the 21mm Distagon was clearly the king of the wides, nobody came to the idea of comparing the other ones to it. Now, all of the sudden, all ZE lenses have to mach the best in performance. From what I have seen until now, the 28/2 remains a very nice lens ideed. The Zeiss site also states that the design is based on the old "Hollywood", with a floating element for improved close distance performance. So, if that is what you need, then the new ZE should be a great lens. Stopped down to f5.6-f8 it is a great landscape/cityscape lens, wide open it gets you a close distance shooting lens with great center sharpness.
Of course, we would like the perfect lens in every focal length, but if you think about it, Zeiss did not have any chance as to keep the profile of it's C/Y lineup. They could not afford to make a let-down 21mm, since the old Distagon was one of a kind, but had to price it accordingly ( btw. remember the times when the Distagon sold for $4000 ). They can not afford to build the whole lineup to these standards, otherwise they would not sell - there are not a lot of people for manual focus lenses that could afford the kind of money for every prime. I would expect them to come out with a great 35/1.4, so build up the same strong points in the C/Y lineup.



Oct 28, 2009 at 04:12 AM
n0b0
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p.4 #18 · New Zeiss ZE lens 28mm f2


Do you have any 28/2 wide open sample shots slungu? The samples in that digilloyd page are all semi macro stuff. If I do buy this lens, I intend to use it wide open a lot, specially since my mate's wedding is coming up, I figure this lens would be great for indoor shots.


Oct 28, 2009 at 04:40 AM
Lotusm50
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p.4 #19 · New Zeiss ZE lens 28mm f2


n0b0 wrote:
Well this is bloody disappointing. I was really interested in this lens as my normal lens on a crop body, seeing as how people are talking about the legendary 3D-like zeiss IQ. I guess I'll get that Sigma 30mm EX after all, since Canon's 28mm lenses aren't worth the money.



Actually, since much of the concern with the lens is with curvature of field, the issue will be much less evident on a crop sensor. I would further say that to get a Sigma 30mm instead based on this discussion would be a misinterpretation of this thread. If my decision was between these 2 lenses, there would be no question that I would get the ZF 28/2. If your looking for the legendary Zeiss qualities, you're not going to find them in a Sigma lens, Further, the issue we are discussion here with the 28/2 are also present in the Sigma 30. We just don't necessarily expect to see them (rightly or wrongly) in the Zeiss lens so it becomes an inflated issue.




Oct 28, 2009 at 05:58 AM
Lotusm50
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p.4 #20 · New Zeiss ZE lens 28mm f2


philber wrote:
Considering the excellence of the 21mm, I feel that it is too early to throw the baby away with the bathwater. Specularist, Lotus, others, care to comment on the 35mm f:2?



The ZF 35/2 is an outstanding lens. It is a well-corrected, exceptionally sharp, floating-element design, lens, with all those Zeiss qualities in spades. Outstanding wide open as well as stopped down and at all focus distances. You really can't go wrong with this lens, particularly at the price. There are rumors about a 35/1.4, but unless you absolutely need f1.4, the new lens is unlikely to provide a performance package as complete as the 35/2.0, and it will certainly be more expensive.




Oct 28, 2009 at 06:05 AM
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