Paul Buff wrote:
Technically, the differential op amps that form the analog remote input latch up when the remote is connected via the telephone jack and the AC power drops below a critical voltage.
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And, Oh, the you tube link comparison sort of implies that I am a slippery salesman that cheats people - that where the "evil" statement originates.
Thanks for the technical background on the issue. I appreciate it.
That makes sense...so the remote power control interface basically "crashes" (digital term, but that's effectively what the opamps are doing when they latch up...hadn't heard that term since my electronics class eons ago )
I guess next question is whether there are better compatible opamps w/ smaller latchup voltages that can replace the current ones on the remote input port? If so, some of us would be more than happy to hack our bees for this feature if we could get a few unofficial hints . Opamps are usually big enough that desoldering/soldering a replacement isn't a big deal unlike the surface mount stuff that is more prevalent nowadays...
I didn't even bother viewing that youtube vid earlier. I just read it as companies pushing stuff out with "features"...but just about everything does nowadays. Look at Nikon's shutter failures w/ the early D700...or Canon's white pixel issue w/ the 5DmkII...or Tamron/Sigma's lack of QC...and I won't even get into software. Everything just is more complicated now and it's hard to test all the cases so you inevitably find "quirks" in the field
I've been using the Jrx on location, powered by multiple Vagabonds since they were released. Like Notorious - I've had a few misfires... but the set-up can not be beat to adjust the lights once they're 8ft up in the air with a beauty dish, etc.
I also keep PWs plugged into each of the lights - just so I can use my hand held flash meter to check ratios. No problems.
kenyee wrote:
Thanks for the technical background on the issue. I appreciate it.
That makes sense...so the remote power control interface basically "crashes" (digital term, but that's effectively what the opamps are doing when they latch up...hadn't heard that term since my electronics class eons ago )
I guess next question is whether there are better compatible opamps w/ smaller latchup voltages that can replace the current ones on the remote input port? If so, some of us would be more than happy to hack our bees for this feature if we could get a few unofficial hints . Opamps are usually big enough that desoldering/soldering a replacement isn't a big deal unlike the surface mount stuff that is more prevalent nowadays...
I didn't even bother viewing that youtube vid earlier. I just read it as companies pushing stuff out with "features"...but just about everything does nowadays. Look at Nikon's shutter failures w/ the early D700...or Canon's white pixel issue w/ the 5DmkII...or Tamron/Sigma's lack of QC...and I won't even get into software. Everything just is more complicated now and it's hard to test all the cases so you inevitably find "quirks" in the field ...Show more →
Good observations. Technically, certain op amps and circuits object when input voltages exceed their power supply voltage. In this case, the power supply voltage dips under critical voltage from the Vagabond and the output from CSRs, RR1s, RC1s and RP controllers doesn't drop, so a latchup condition can result. This is something we didn't anticipate in 1986 when these circuits were designed before current limiting inverters existed.
As for hacks - while this is possible, these circuits, for the past eight years or so, utilize robotically assembled surface mount chips about the size of a flea. Field reworking of SMT circuits is extremely difficult for even very advanced technicians. From our perspective, yes, we could find solutions for this, but considering there are over a half million lights that have been in the field as long as 13 years, attempting to retrofit these lights would be an impossible task. It's tantamount to to trying to retrofit all pcs ever made because they don't have USB2. In that regard, how many 1986 (or 2005) vintage computers are capable of running 2009 software or hardware? This is not intended as a cop out. We are proud of the huge number of Buff lights in regular use today and which are fully capable of accepting all 2009 accessories, and capable of complete digital wireless remote control and operation with Vagabond and other inverters. The fact that RP was able to do what they have is testament. So the question arises: "Why didn't RP make power control of any light system other than Buff a feature?" Why doesn't XYZ flash have a Vagabond and digital remote for their classic products?"
As stated, this potential has existed since the introduction of Vagabond in 1998 and has not surfaced until this thread, either on forums or in our tech department. So Paul Buff isn't God!
That's the trap of most higher end manufacturers. If they assumed that at a price of $995 they would sell 50 times as many, and sourced with a dollar calculator in hand and did some engineering refinements, the dream would come true.
I lose money during the first months or even years of every new product for this exact reason - extensive marketability oriented engineering, lots of tolling and a forward looking plan that say "If I can sell this for $XXX they will buy and I will recoup my startup expense ten fold."
Paul Buff wrote:
Good observations. Technically, certain op amps and circuits object when input voltages exceed their power supply voltage. In this case, the power supply voltage dips under critical voltage from the Vagabond and the output from CSRs, RR1s, RC1s and RP controllers doesn't drop, so a latchup condition can result.
Would the remote input controllers be able to tell if the power supply voltage droops? If so, they could track/match the voltage drop and prevent the latchup condition. It does sound like only a subset of bees are affected (depending on opamp tolerances) and the likelihood of the latchup happening increases as the vagabond is drained which should cause a lower voltage droop on chargeup.
Thanks for the info on the opamps...I didn't realize you were using SMT devices all this time. I was hoping they were the big discrete opamps we used in the old ages that were trivial to solder
kenyee wrote:
Would the remote input controllers be able to tell if the power supply voltage droops? If so, they could track/match the voltage drop and prevent the latchup condition. It does sound like only a subset of bees are affected (depending on opamp tolerances) and the likelihood of the latchup happening increases as the vagabond is drained which should cause a lower voltage droop on chargeup.
Thanks for the info on the opamps...I didn't realize you were using SMT devices all this time. I was hoping they were the big discrete opamps we used in the old ages that were trivial to solder ...Show more →
Maybe possible, but quite difficult.
As for SMT, this brings lower building costs, fewer building errors and better reliability. The cost of hand insertion and soldering of big ole through hole parts drives you to Asia where you can get it done for $.50 and hour and a whole lot of rejects and failures.
Einstein is our ultimate answer and that's what the whole Cyber Commander was designed around. $29 all digital communication transceiver, none of the setup described in the link I won't repeat here, runs anywhere totally plug and play, and the 250W modeling and frosted dome are wonderful (in my biased mind).
The Cyber Commander looks very very nice. I can't wait for it to be released. I just hope it remains fairly small and easy to use. Also, I hope you've taken into consideration those of us who work on location in f/16 direct sunlight, the ability to actually see and read the LCD screen.
If the LCD screen won't work well in direct sunlight, then perhaps maybe you'd consider manufacturing an additional lower-cost controller with just a few buttons on it? on/off, group selection, and up/down in .3 stop increments.
p.2 #10 · Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems
Jimmy Ho wrote:
The Cyber Commander looks very very nice. I can't wait for it to be released. I just hope it remains fairly small and easy to use. Also, I hope you've taken into consideration those of us who work on location in f/16 direct sunlight, the ability to actually see and read the LCD screen.
If the LCD screen won't work well in direct sunlight, then perhaps maybe you'd consider manufacturing an additional lower-cost controller with just a few buttons on it? on/off, group selection, and up/down in .3 stop increments.
Already in the very early stages.
p.2 #11 · Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems
Jimmy Ho wrote:
maybe you'd consider manufacturing an additional lower-cost controller with just a few buttons on it? on/off, group selection, and up/down in .3 stop increments.
And be able to test fire each group separately so you can meter each light at a time...this is something the RPJrX can't do because you can't turn the knob back to where you had it after you turn it to the "off" position.
If you can add quench pin support...
p.2 #12 · Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems
kenyee wrote:
And be able to test fire each group separately so you can meter each light at a time...this is something the RPJrX can't do because you can't turn the knob back to where you had it after you turn it to the "off" position.
If you can add quench pin support...
All of this capability is in Cyber Commander and all is explained in the link. BTW, we shipped the first CC yesterday and we have a pre order list that will eat up most of our first production run of 500. The second run is in preparation now.
Here's my take on quench pin question, with a question: What happens when you set three or four speedlights, get the lighting ratios set for a nice composition, then try to control them with TTL and quench pins? Second question: What happens when you introduce the necessary time delay between a TTL sensor and the light(s) it controls, even with the very short latencies of CyberSync? Hint - look at the IGBT control discussion in "the link".
I'd love to have a discussion about this if there is any feedback as to what the implications of this whole issue are really about.
I leave it at that for now and see if any posters can figure out why we don't do that and probably never will on Cyber Commander. There's a fundamental difference in studio lighting and firing speedlights, and between TTL and manual control . . . between studio style lighting and "taking pictures".
This is not meant to be negative in any away, rather, provocative and to stimulate thinking about the big picture (no pun intended). Perhaps a new thread on this complex subject might be in order.
p.2 #13 · Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems
Paul Buff wrote:
All of this capability is in Cyber Commander and all is explained in the link. BTW, we shipped the first CC yesterday and we have a pre order list that will eat up most of our first production run of 500. The second run is in preparation now.
Paul, when will the second batch be ready to ship? I just called, but the sale person said it will be on the web next week. I don't think I have a chance to get one from the first batch, hope to get it from the second batch.
p.2 #14 · Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems
Paul Buff wrote:
The best interim workaround, until the next generation Buff lights appear, is to use a Honda generator instead of battery inverter, or to use manual control when using vagabond.
Paul,
Any idea how many lights a EU1000iA/EU2000iA generator could handle?
The EU2000iA is rated at 1600 watts (2000 watts max).
The EU1000iA is rated at 900 watts (1000 watts max).
p.2 #15 · Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems
Paul Buff wrote:
we shipped the first CC yesterday
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What happens when you set three or four speedlights, get the lighting ratios set for a nice composition, then try to control them with TTL and quench pins? Second question: What happens when you introduce the necessary time delay between a TTL sensor and the light(s) it controls, even with the very short latencies of CyberSync?
First, CONGRATS on shipping the first CC! It's always cause for celebration by the development crew when something you work on for a while goes out the door
As for TTL and quench pins, the quench pin technique is only done via one pin (much like the autothyristor quenching the flash if you use it on hotshoe flashes from my understanding of it). Most DSLRs no longer have a TTL sensor or use the TTL pins like the old days; instead, if you buy into their e/i/pTTL system, they do a pre-measurement flash before firing the real flash, but this is independent of the old TTL/quench pins (Nikon's new SB-900 flash doesn't even have the TTL/quench pins).
You'll have color consistency issues w/ hotshoe flashes I'll bet, but I'm more worried about exposure consistencies as you move around (whether the quench activation timing is different at different distances)...haven't done enough controlled tests to figure out whether either is an issue yet...
p.2 #16 · Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems
Jimmy: I promised I'd report on how my Vagabond test went. Just got back from a shoot w/ vladphoto on MM (he brought the Vagabond and we both brought a few bees). I didn't test my AB1600's because it wasn't full day sun so we only used his two B800's mixed w/ an SB28 for an additional hair/rim light. From my roughly 100 photos (vlad ran probably 200 shots but I haven't checked to see if he had any misfires yet), there was one misfire from the bees not recycling in time because I held the shutter button down too long and fired a two shot sequence. Power adjustments went as expected. No JrX's crashed. We probably ran the Vagabond down halfway over a few hours.
So it's a big YMMV on these. I'm guessing opamp manufacturing tolerance on yours was worse than usual since now I'm the third person on this thread who hasn't had a problem running the JrX on Vagabond power...
Main negative on the JrX so far is the rotary dials are too easy to jostle out of position w/ a slight rub, e.g., if you dangle your camera at your side while fiddling w/ a softbox that the damn 25mph wind gusts rotated for the Nth time :-P It'd be nice if there was some sort of cover for the knobs or an adjustment disable button.
p.2 #17 · Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems
The bigger question is what flash unit(s) and how many? The load on the inverter determines how far the voltage drops. Zeus drops the inverter output more than 3 or 4 AB or WL.
Kenyee, were you using the remote control telephone style jack?
p.2 #18 · Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems
kenyee wrote:
Power adjustments went as expected. No JrX's crashed. We probably ran the Vagabond down halfway over a few hours.
That is good news.
Main negative on the JrX so far is the rotary dials are too easy to jostle out of position w/ a slight rub, e.g., if you dangle your camera at your side while fiddling w/ a softbox that the damn 25mph wind gusts rotated for the Nth time :-P It'd be nice if there was some sort of cover for the knobs or an adjustment disable button.
That is what I was worry about those dials on the JRx.
p.2 #20 · Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems
Paul Buff wrote:
The bigger question is what flash unit(s) and how many? The load on the inverter determines how far the voltage drops. Zeus drops the inverter output more than 3 or 4 AB or WL.
Kenyee, were you using the remote control telephone style jack?
Two B800's and yes, using the telephone style jack because that's the only way the JrX can control power. We were shooting in late afternoon sun and I don't think we used full power...early on, maybe 3/4 power on one and 3/4 power on the other (one was through a softbox). What I didn't do to test it was fire both at full power because that would have brought the voltage down more. I'll do that the next chance I get and also test w/ my B1600s which we didn't need. I also suspect a Vagabond at 1/4 power would be more susceptible to the brownout latchup.
Unfortunately, I have to send the TX back for exchange (RP is covering shipping which is nice of them and what should be done) so it'll be gone for a week at least. The group A dial is a lot looser than the other two so that was one reason we were nudging it out of position.
There is a DIP switch (rightmost on TX) to disable level updates, but if you nudge it, then turn this back on, it'll set the levels to the wrong power level, but I guess it's better than nothing...
)
. Opamps are usually big enough that desoldering/soldering a replacement isn't a big deal unlike the surface mount stuff that is more prevalent nowadays...
