p.2 #1 · Legality of using music on a website - part 749
jeremy_clay wrote:
The artists. Spring Awakening granted me permission, another contact I spoke with said it woul be "..too much of a hassle" to obtain written permission, but he was sure they wouldn't care and to "..just go for it", etc.
I hate to say this but it's quite likely that under most recording contracts the artist doesn't even have the right to grant you permission to play it. I could be wrong here, but I would NOT be surprised if I were right.
As for me asking for permission... it's a bit complicated... the artist passed away when I was 6 years old and I've lost my Ouija board
p.2 #2 · Legality of using music on a website - part 749
lisy78 wrote:
If I'm understanding this correctly, the bottom line is that it was never legal to begin with to install a stereo system in your store and play CDs you bought at BestBuy over the speakers, not that the rules are different for a web gallery vs. a physical art gallery.
no. the rules actually are different for a web gallery v. storefront gallery. there are hundreds of different license scenarios. on hold music, public performance, DJ, etc etc etc
the problem is not where you play the music, but in what context. every ear that hears the music while exposed to your work is essentially a "reproduction" - the music enhances the viewing experience (or why else would you use it?) enhanced experience = bigger bucks.
i don't exactly understand your most recent post... but the links i shared will certainly provide clarification.
p.2 #3 · Legality of using music on a website - part 749
flash wrote:
+1 to ksmahgrts and TRReichman.
I'm surprised that any professional photographer would even consider stealing music, given how often images are stolen and used without permission.
Gordon
How about we avoid using inflammatory words like "stealing" when they're not required.
FWIW stealing music is when you steal a physical CD from a store, or when you go somewhere shady and download music without paying for it.
Playing music from a CD you lawfully bought, on a stereo you lawfully bought, in your store where you lawfully pay rent... may be a lot of things, but I'm not sure you need to call it stealng.
I just took the CD that I'm using apart.. read every single line of text on the disc, on every bit of paper included with the disc (case, leaflet etc) ... and nowhere is there any mention that playing the CD in a public establishment violates anything. There's an express indication that unauthorized duplication is a violation of copyright law, but nothing about playing the CD in a store.
So my question is simply... how th heck is someone supposed to presume that it's in fact NOT OK to play the damn thing in their store?
And if you're supposed to guess... fine... for what else are you supposed to guess?
Can I have a magazine that I bought at a bookstore in the same waiting room where I play the CD music, for my customers to read? or am I supposed to go get a special license for that too? If not, how is a magazine that I'm basically letting tons of people read for free any different from a CD that I'm letting them hear for free.
The bottom line, dude, is that things aren't quite as Black and White as you may think they are... so again... let's ease up on the words.
And no, really... how the heck is someone supposed to guess that they can't play this CD in a store? Can I use regular Home Depot lightbulbs in my store? Or do I have to get some specially licensed ones from GE? Yeah... I'm being facetious... but seriously... how the heck is one supposed to know?
p.2 #4 · Legality of using music on a website - part 749
things are black and white. using someone's property - be it concrete or intellectual - without their permission, is, in fact, stealing. there's nothing inflammatory about that.
ignorance of the law does not give you the right to break the law. contempt for the law does not give you the right to break the law.
as a business owner it is your responsibility to educate yourself on the laws that impact your business. it's really as simple as that.
p.2 #5 · Legality of using music on a website - part 749
ksmahgrts wrote:
...and why would you not just be reasonable, ethical, and lawful to begin with?
Let me address these one by one:
reasonable - I believe I'm being reasonable. If it's ok to play the CD in my store then it should be ok to play it on my online store. If it was never ok to play the CD in my store then I have two questions:
1. How the heck was I supposed to know? Nowhere on the CD or any of the paperwork that came with it does it say anything about playing it in a public establishment as a limitation
2. If I'm supposed to guess that sharing my music (in terms of letting them hear it) with customers is NOT ok, why is it ok to share my magazines with them in the waiting room?
Ethical - I suspect that if you asked 100 otherwise ethical, legal and upstanding citizens "I bought this CD at BestBuy and I'd like to play it on my stereo in my photography studio, is that cool?" you'd get an OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of YES answers... even accounting for those who feel it's yes but answer NO figuring that the mere fact that you're asking must mean that the answer is surprising. So I'm not sure that there's anything Unethical about my question
Lawful - Again... I will read the links you provided, but as far as I can tell it's not like the music companies have made it easy for me to see that it's unlawful (nothing written on the CD about it) ... morevoer again... ask 100 people on the street "I want to play a song on my website, what do I need to do to do it legally" ... I bet you'll get 100 "who the heck knows" ... in fact I'd bet that if you asked 100 random Music Industry employees you'd still get like 98% "heck if I know"
This is like a secret speed limit on the road tha has no sign telling you that THERE IS a speed limit... nobody knows WHAT the speed limit is, and if you get a ticket there's no mailing address to send your money to.
p.2 #6 · Legality of using music on a website - part 749
(From BMI.com)
"U.S. Copyright Law provides that to "perform" a work "publicly" means to recite, render, play, dance, or act it, either directly or by means of any device or process…(1) at a place open to the public or at any place where a substantial number of persons outside of a normal circle of a family and its social acquaintances is gathered; or (2) to transmit or otherwise communicate a performance or display of the work to a place specified by clause (1) or to the public by means of any device or process, whether the members of the public are capable of receiving the performance or display receive it in the same place or in separate places and at the same time or at different times."
"Musical compositions, like other intellectual property, belong to their creators. U.S. Copyright Law grants certain exclusive rights to copyright owners, including the right to publicly perform and the right to authorize others to publicly perform the work. Web Sites that publicly perform music must obtain a license from the copyright owner or their representative."
You use the example of your CD not explaining the full limits of its use: I assume that every print and digital image that you release contains a list of everything that you're NOT allowing the client to do with it? Whenever you place a simple copyright notice on something, the implicit understanding is that you are asserting your intellectual property rights, and that no one may seek to profit from your intellectual property without your consent. You can't use music on your website without authorization for the same reasons that a musical artist can't use your photography on their website without your permission.
Bottom line is that its against the law to use music on your website without a licensing agreement. Its that simple. If you don't like it, go speak to your congress person. If you chose to break the law, then theft of intellectual property is a factual description... not inflammatory language.
p.2 #7 · Legality of using music on a website - part 749
how is it that so many of us are familiar with these regulations and you remain so adamantly unaware? this has been a major topic of conversation in the photography world for a couple of years now.
p.2 #9 · Legality of using music on a website - part 749
ksmahgrts wrote:
how is it that so many of us are familiar with these regulations and you remain so adamantly unaware? this has been a major topic of conversation in the photography world for a couple of years now.
I think you're giving "the photography world" a lot more credit than it deserves. I suspect there aren't THAT many people who could have whipped-out the links you did.
Moreover the fact that threads like this and similar to this have popped up every once in a while suggests that I'm not the only one out there who isn't as strong on this as you are.
p.2 #11 · Legality of using music on a website - part 749
since I'm not at all convinced that anyone cares to listen to music on my website when they are looking at my photos - and cause I was "mildly" concerned regarding my using music without permission or legality - I took all my jukebox music on my blusite down and turned it off... no biggie.
I haven't had anyone yet.. say "I was going to use you as a photog and I really enjoyed your work.. but I didn't get to hear any sappy music while I hung out on your site.. i've decided to use so-and-so cause his sappy music roped me in and I was DONE !"
p.2 #12 · Legality of using music on a website - part 749
lisy78 wrote:
How about we avoid using inflammatory words like "stealing" when they're not required.
FWIW stealing music is when you steal a physical CD from a store, or when you go somewhere shady and download music without paying for it.
Playing music from a CD you lawfully bought, on a stereo you lawfully bought, in your store where you lawfully pay rent... may be a lot of things, but I'm not sure you need to call it stealng.
I just took the CD that I'm using apart.. read every single line of text on the disc, on every bit of paper included with the disc (case, leaflet etc) ... and nowhere is there any mention that playing the CD in a public establishment violates anything. There's an express indication that unauthorized duplication is a violation of copyright law, but nothing about playing the CD in a store.
So my question is simply... how th heck is someone supposed to presume that it's in fact NOT OK to play the damn thing in their store?
And if you're supposed to guess... fine... for what else are you supposed to guess?
Can I have a magazine that I bought at a bookstore in the same waiting room where I play the CD music, for my customers to read? or am I supposed to go get a special license for that too? If not, how is a magazine that I'm basically letting tons of people read for free any different from a CD that I'm letting them hear for free.
The bottom line, dude, is that things aren't quite as Black and White as you may think they are... so again... let's ease up on the words.
And no, really... how the heck is someone supposed to guess that they can't play this CD in a store? Can I use regular Home Depot lightbulbs in my store? Or do I have to get some specially licensed ones from GE? Yeah... I'm being facetious... but seriously... how the heck is one supposed to know?
In this particular case I see no grey, only black and white. I am part of an industry where intelectual roperty exists. I don't like people stealing my images and I don't use software or music illegally. I'm not trying to offend or inflame. By legal definition it would be stealing. It really is black and white. Morality and legality are different things, of course. Should you have the moral right to play the music? Maybe. But you don't have the legal right.
There are alternatives. There's lots of royalty free music available. Some of it is free. There are also dozens of new and upcoming bands that will do a "deal" to get some publicity.
p.2 #13 · Legality of using music on a website - part 749
Just as an FYI ... let what you peeps wrote marinate for the night.
Then this am Read Grits' link (thanks again, btw ... I really appreciate that you posted that... I hope that my stubbornness didn't make you feel like it was a wasted effort... it wasn't)
So the unedited thoughts this am are:
No offense to the Recording industry but if they think I'm going to pay $300 a year for a couple of songs on my website, they are Out of their Cuffing Minds.
I'm ok with their per visitor charge, but the flat rate they add on is outrageous.
Not looking to argue this, btw... I'm sure I'll get comments like:
- How much do you sell an 8x10 for?
- How much does it cost you?
- Maybe your clients think You are out of your cuffing mind (maybe they do, some non-clients certainly do, I know that for a fact)
They are out of their minds that that's that.
Since I really never intended to "steal" and their price to be legal is beyond ridiculous I decided to take the only rational course of action and turned off the music on the site.
I kinda liked having music, but I also didn't think I was really doing anything "wrong" and now I guess I have to acknowledge that I was.
By the way, Grits, I'm sorry but yes... it was Evan's post that drove it home . I guess it hadn't occurred to me that as he implied, I don't put a laundry list of dos and don'ts on the back of every print I give out.
On the other hand I DO give them a license document that I think is fairly exhaustive in terms of what they can and cannot do with it, without requiring them to go look up the specific things they can or cannot do. And with this I am not trying to minimize their rights or anything, just pointing out that they certainly could make it easier for Joe Somebody to know what they can and can't do and how to go about doing it right.
I'm still curious about the magazines in the waiting room thing though. Not sure how that's any different
p.2 #17 · Legality of using music on a website - part 749
lisy78 wrote:
Let me address these one by one:
reasonable - I believe I'm being reasonable. If it's ok to play the CD in my store then it should be ok to play it on my online store.
It is not legal to play the CD in a retail or other business establishment. You need a performance license for that.
That is why most will use "Muzak" (elevator music) which is intended and licensed for such usage. The same applies to DJs. Ever notice that the CDs that DJs play are compilation CDs and not the same as the ones we buy? That's because they are purchased through a source that has negotiated the usage rights for play. You won't see ethical DJs using commercial off-the-shelf CDs.
If it was never ok to play the CD in my store then I have two questions:
1. How the heck was I supposed to know? Nowhere on the CD or any of the paperwork that came with it does it say anything about playing it in a public establishment as a limitation
Would you use the same logic to explain to a client why she cannot scan and print from a picture you sold her? Why not? There's no place on the print where it says that us illegal.
2. If I'm supposed to guess that sharing my music (in terms of letting them hear it) with customers is NOT ok, why is it ok to share my magazines with them in the waiting room?
Editorial usage.
Ethical - I suspect that if you asked 100 otherwise ethical, legal and upstanding citizens "I bought this CD at BestBuy and I'd like to play it on my stereo in my photography studio, is that cool?" you'd get an OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of YES answers... even accounting for those who feel it's yes but answer NO figuring that the mere fact that you're asking must mean that the answer is surprising. So I'm not sure that there's anything Unethical about my question
Lawful - Again... I will read the links you provided, but as far as I can tell it's not like the music companies have made it easy for me to see that it's unlawful (nothing written on the CD about it) ... morevoer again... ask 100 people on the street "I want to play a song on my website, what do I need to do to do it legally" ... I bet you'll get 100 "who the heck knows" ... in fact I'd bet that if you asked 100 random Music Industry employees you'd still get like 98% "heck if I know"...Show more →
Confusion over the law if no excuse for breaking the law.
This is like a secret speed limit on the road tha has no sign telling you that THERE IS a speed limit... nobody knows WHAT the speed limit is, and if you get a ticket there's no mailing address to send your money to.
No, seriously.
Unmarked roads all have a set speed limit and that varies from state to state. Check with your state's DMV.
It looks like you, just like the other photographers that want to use commercial music illegally just want to try and rationalize it.
p.2 #18 · Legality of using music on a website - part 749
That is why most will use "Muzak" (elevator music) which is intended and licensed for such usage. The same applies to DJs. Ever notice that the CDs that DJs play are compilation CDs and not the same as the ones we buy? That's because they are purchased through a source that has negotiated the usage rights for play. You won't see ethical DJs using commercial off-the-shelf CDs.
Are you sure about this? I thought DJs could use any music they wanted as long as they pay their BMI ASCAP and SESAC dues and the song is covered by those companies.
p.2 #19 · Legality of using music on a website - part 749
I think you both are right. Most ethical DJ's if they have the money and are set up pay BMI ASCAP and SECAC dues. If they are not and they are still trying to be ethical will use compilation CD's with usuage rights. Everyone else....
p.2 #20 · Legality of using music on a website - part 749
"I worry that the person who thought up Muzak may be thinking up something else."
-Lily Tomlin
Personally, I find music on websites annoying. I usually have my own soundtrack going on the same computer and it just clashes. I rarely find the music is decent and when it is it is most likely being used illegally. ;-)
Also, unless you have the music muted with the option to turn on, you may cause trouble for some of your future brides who are scouting photography sites at work.
. I guess it hadn't occurred to me that as he implied, I don't put a laundry list of dos and don'ts on the back of every print I give out.
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