theSuede wrote:
The 7D is the first camera to increase BOTH pixel-quality AND resolution in a while.
Compared to the 50D, where (as you said) we saw a decline in the pixel-quality
Expect this quality per mm2 of sensor real estate to be the norm in Canon cameras for a while.
This is what's concerning me.
Seems like FF is the only option if one wants better ISO than what 1.6x cameras currently provide.
I understand your point. It has been discussed many times.
But to me, higher resolution = bigger prints.
If there's more noise at the pixel level on the hi res sensor, then this noise will be more visible in the bigger print as well.
In summary, noisier hi-density sensors give you the following options:
- same size prints with less visible noise
- bigger prints with more noise
That's a dubious proposition, as far as I'm concerned.
Ideally, you'd want bigger prints with same/less noise.
That's why comparing pixel-level noise is important. It tells you how much noise there will be in the bigger print.
jorkata wrote:
Ideally, you'd want bigger prints with same/less noise.
That's why pixel-level noise is important. It tells you how much noise there will be in the bigger print.
This begs a few other questions which have been brought up before. Namely, the needed normalization or matching of image-sensor "sensel" densities and sensor size (resolution) to final print DPI resolution?
If your output target (final print) resolution is lower than the source input sensor (or file) resolution, wouldn't that effectively represent down-sampling?
Conversely, if your output target (final print) resolution is higher than the source input sensor (or file) resolution, wouldn't that effectively represent up-sampling?
Those discussions essentially help you decide how big of a print you can make before you start noticing issues. That, along with the anticipated viewing distance to the final print from the intended audience.
In the end, sometimes this all matters, and sometimes it doesn't. It just depends.
jorkata wrote:
I understand your point. It has been discussed many times.
But to me, higher resolution = bigger prints.
If there's more noise at the pixel level on the hi res sensor, then this noise will be more visible in the bigger print as well.
In summary, noisier hi-density sensors give you the following options:
- same size prints with less visible noise
- bigger prints with more noise
That's a dubious proposition, as far as I'm concerned.
Ideally, you'd want bigger prints with same/less noise.
That's why comparing pixel-level noise is important. It tells you how much noise there will be in the bigger print.
Can you elaborate on this because it doesn't make sense:
same size prints with less noise (gotcha!)
bigger prints with more noise (how does THAT happen?)
So you're saying with more megapixels I can create bigger prints than with less megapixels but that's a bad thing because the noise in those bigger prints will be more than the noise in the smaller prints
Does someone have directions back to the drawing board because that theory needs a little work.....
Pixel level noise is important for making larger prints at a fixed ppi - e.g. 300 ppi.
For example, the 20D will give you 8x12 prints at 300 ppi.
You need to have the same pixel level noise from the 7D if you want larger 300 ppi prints to have the same level noise.
For larger prints at lower ppu, pixel level noise is even more important.
If there's more pixel-level noise in the 7D, a 13x19 print from it will look noisier than a 8x12 print from the 20D.
So, 'normalizing' is meaningful only if you are downsampling.
If you are printing at the same ppi or lower (upsampling), pixel-level noise is the only measurement that will give you an idea of how much noise there will be in the print.
kapytalyst wrote:
So you're saying with more megapixels I can create bigger prints than with less megapixels but that's a bad thing because the noise in those bigger prints will be more than the noise in the smaller prints
The only bad thing here is that if the hi-res camera is noiser at the pixel level, you will see more noise in the bigger print.
Hoping that camera manufacturers will understand this one day and will offer each camera in at least two variations - one with a hi-res sensor and another with a lower-res/better ISO sensor.
You have same cars with different engines, same computers with different CPUs.
Why not the same camera with different sensors.
For some, the more megapixels, the better.
Others don't feel this way.
jorkata wrote:
I understand your point. It has been discussed many times.
But to me, higher resolution = bigger prints.
If there's more noise at the pixel level on the hi res sensor, then this noise will be more visible in the bigger print as well.
In summary, noisier hi-density sensors give you the following options:
- same size prints with less visible noise
- bigger prints with more noise
That's a dubious proposition, as far as I'm concerned.
Ideally, you'd want bigger prints with same/less noise.
That's why comparing pixel-level noise is important. It tells you how much noise there will be in the bigger print.
Hoping that camera manufacturers will understand this one day and will offer each camera in at least two variations - one with a hi-res sensor and another with a lower-res/better ISO sensor.
You have same cars with different engines, same computers with different CPUs.
Why not the same camera with different sensors.
For some, the more megapixels, the better.
Others don't feel this way.
OK, but who wants a 4 cylinder Corvette?
I really think you should test your theory, because the Canon SLR's with the best image quality right now also have the highest number of megapixels.
ruhikant wrote:
Two days with 7D but no shooting due to bad weather here.
My overall conclusion is if you do not print big, set the cam at MRAW(10MP).
At MRAW,this little cam shoots about 25-29 frames at 8FPS(with extreme IV 8GB) before buffer runs out and keep shooting at about 3FPS afterwards (no black out at all).
I do not have many pictures to show but a 100% cropped (MRAW) at ISO 800(with no NR applied).
I think, MRAW(10MP) of 7D is much cleaner than 40D(10MP) at pixel level.
it seems that under poor lighting when shooting action it is hard to get 18MP nicely resolved anyway so probably it is best to forget about trying to get reach and just stick with mRAW for the much larger buffer.
