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Archive 2009 · D300s or D700

  
 
Kerry Pierce
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p.5 #1 · D300s or D700


Makten wrote:
As usual almost all replies claiming the difference between DX and FX to be unimportant, comes from DX camera owners. I wonder why...


I have owned and used the d300 and d700, since last November. I have no emotional attachment to either one. In many, many cases, the differences are indeed, unimportant. It's just silly to view everything at 100% on a computer screen and pretend that each and every shot that you make depends upon the sometimes minute differences that can be seen at 100%.

Normal people make normal size prints and normal people have budgets. The vast majority of prints are not very large. That's how I evaluate both cameras, by the prints that I make. I routinely print 12x18 and smaller, which I believe to be the norm, perhaps even a bit on the high side. I very rarely print larger.

There is no doubt that the noise performance of the d700 is better at high ISO, but it certainly is not magic. There are far too many other factors involved. For one thing, there are many fewer good lenses available for FX than there are for DX, which is no small matter. Poor lighting usually makes for poor photos, even on FX......

For me, it's a joy to have both cameras and I simply don't understand why some people bash DX as if it is trash, incapable of producing excellent photos. IMO, in many cases, DX is capable producing photos that are every bit as good as FX.

You and luminosity and some others have an emotional attachment to FX, which is fine, but it doesn't allow for pragmatic evaluation. You keep mentioning the cheap lens on FX equals a top lens on DX, ie the tamron 28-75 vs 17-55, etc. IME, that is simply not true. I've never used the nikkor 17-55 that you mention, but I do own the 35-70, 28-70 and 24-70 nikkors and I own the tamron 17-50. I also bought and returned the tamron 28-75. There is no doubt in my mind that the 28-70 and 24-70 nikkors will produce more keepers, on either format, than will either of the tamron lenses. Assuming that the 17-55 is on par optically with the nikkor 28-70, I see no reason to believe that it would give away anything to the tamron and would beat it with AF performance.

The bottom line, as I see it, is that both are fine cameras and both would serve the average person equally well. That is not to say that both cameras are equal, because they certainly are not. That's why I own both, because each has differing strengths and weaknesses than the other and they complement each other very well.

Now, if I had an unlimited budget and could physically carry the big lenses and support systems that are needed to negate the crop factor, then I probably wouldn't bother with DX. But, that's not a realistic outlook for me.




Aug 13, 2009 at 09:55 AM
mortyb
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p.5 #2 · D300s or D700


For my style of shooting, the two most important reasons to go FX is 1) Primes are what they used to be on film cameras and 2) Subject isolation features, where IMO FX totally rules.


Aug 13, 2009 at 10:26 AM
fwyflyr
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p.5 #3 · D300s or D700


If the budget will support either camera, my advice to you is to get the D700 based on what you shoot .............."I mostly shoot landscapes, family portraits, and some travel photography when I can". The full-frame and higher ISO performance of the D700 makes more sense for you than a D300 would. If you were into wildlife/bird photography, I would have recommended the D300 for the x 1.5 form factor for the additional reach that it would give you.
If you would like video capability thrown in, for recording travel and family outings, then the D300s would offer that feature that the D700 does not have.
In this less than perfect world, it comes down to compromises since we seemingly "can't have it all". (sigh)
- Ken



Aug 13, 2009 at 02:15 PM
Makten
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p.5 #4 · D300s or D700


Kerry Pierce wrote:
It's just silly to view everything at 100% on a computer screen and pretend that each and every shot that you make depends upon the sometimes minute differences that can be seen at 100%.


Fortunately, I don't do that.

Normal people make normal size prints and normal people have budgets. The vast majority of prints are not very large. That's how I evaluate both cameras, by the prints that I make. I routinely print 12x18 and smaller, which I believe to be the norm, perhaps even a bit on the high side. I very rarely print larger.

I don't even do prints at all. Still FX is an easy choice for me. Difference in DOF and sharpness at large apertures are very visible even at small websized pictures.

There is no doubt that the noise performance of the d700 is better at high ISO, but it certainly is not magic. There are far too many other factors involved. For one thing, there are many fewer good lenses available for FX than there are for DX, which is no small matter. Poor lighting usually makes for poor photos, even on FX......

Really? I'd say the opposite. Where are the fast wide angles and normal lenses for DX? Portrait teles?

You and luminosity and some others have an emotional attachment to FX, which is fine, but it doesn't allow for pragmatic evaluation.

Nope, I just see all the good things with a larger format. MF would be even better, but not with todays sensor technology and pricing.

You keep mentioning the cheap lens on FX equals a top lens on DX, ie the tamron 28-75 vs 17-55, etc. IME, that is simply not true. I've never used the nikkor 17-55 that you mention, but I do own the 35-70, 28-70 and 24-70 nikkors and I own the tamron 17-50. I also bought and returned the tamron 28-75. There is no doubt in my mind that the 28-70 and 24-70 nikkors will produce more keepers, on either format, than will either of the tamron lenses. Assuming that the 17-55 is on par optically with the nikkor 28-70, I see...Show more

You're probably right about AF performance, which in my case is unimportant. Optically, the possibility to stop down the lenses on FX a little bit more makes hell of a difference if you want best sharpness at a certain DOF.

The bottom line, as I see it, is that both are fine cameras and both would serve the average person equally well. That is not to say that both cameras are equal, because they certainly are not. That's why I own both, because each has differing strengths and weaknesses than the other and they complement each other very well.

Now, if I had an unlimited budget and could physically carry the big lenses and support systems that are needed to negate the crop factor, then I probably wouldn't bother with DX. But, that's not a realistic outlook for me.


I agree, but for me the extra cost of the FX body is not an issue since I can use cheap lenses and get the results I want. I much rather spend my money on photo gear than furniture, cars (I don't own one), clothes and stuff that others do.



Aug 13, 2009 at 02:15 PM
Kerry Pierce
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p.5 #5 · D300s or D700




I don't even do prints at all. Still FX is an easy choice for me. Difference in DOF and sharpness at large apertures are very visible even at small websized pictures.


If I didn't do prints, I'd not own the d700 and probably not the d300. If fact, I'd probably not be doing photography at all. Looking at photos on screen is okay, but I much prefer to look at prints.

For one thing, there are many fewer good lenses available for FX than there are for DX, which is no small matter. Poor lighting usually makes for poor photos, even on FX......

Really? I'd say the opposite. Where are the fast wide angles and normal lenses for DX? Portrait teles?


Please, lets not pretend that FX lenses are no good on DX or that a lens HAS to be a DX lens to count for use on the DX side.

You're happy with your cheap lenses on FX. I don't know why you think that is the norm, but it certainly is not. The fact is that most people expect to have a variety of lenses to choose from and they want lenses that are sharp edge to edge, corner to corner, without distortions, CA and all that other crap that plagues a lot of FX lenses. With FX, most people simply don't have much choice, other than the expensive pro lenses. With DX you don't have to worry about the edges and corners and there are a lot of modern DX lenses to choose from, along with the modern FX lenses.

The fast WA thing is a red herring. Not many want to pay the premium for fast WA lenses. Personally, I couldn't care less about fast WA. I bought my first one a couple of weeks ago, simply to try to understand why some folks want them. I don't see the big deal with it. It's nice for certain applications, but not something that would have mass appeal when price is factored in.


You're probably right about AF performance, which in my case is unimportant.


There seem to be quite a few things that are unimportant to you, which are certainly important to the majority of users. If that weren't true, people wouldn't buy the lenses with AF-S and all that other "garbage".




Aug 13, 2009 at 09:02 PM
luminosity
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p.5 #6 · D300s or D700


With FX, most people simply don't have much choice, other than the expensive pro lenses.

So... how about that 85 1/.8? 50/1.8? 24/1.8?



Aug 13, 2009 at 09:07 PM
Kerry Pierce
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p.5 #7 · D300s or D700


luminosity wrote:
With FX, most people simply don't have much choice, other than the expensive pro lenses.

So... how about that 85 1/.8? 50/1.8? 24/1.8?


You think that most people would be happy with that as an alternative to the 24-70 or 14-24? How about the wonderful 24-120vr or 24-85? None of those lenses are as "modern" as the 24-120vr. The 24-120vr was introduced in 2003, 50 f/1.8 in 2002, 24-85 AF-S in 2002 now discontinued in favor of the 24-85 AF-D that was introduced in 2000, 18-35 AF-D in 2000. The 70-300 is a good alternative to the 70-200, but the 80-400 is another beast that was introduced in 2000.

With DX, there are a slew of modern, sharp and cheap to mid-level expensive lenses in the WA to 200mm. That is simply not so with FX.




Aug 13, 2009 at 11:41 PM
Steezus
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p.5 #8 · D300s or D700


You know I really want someone to talk me into a D700 right now. I wouldn't have to wait until September to upgrade my body. I am willing to give up some reach and deal with some soft corners on the 70-200, but wide angle is were I spend most of my time.

I would have to replace my current DX wide angle and the FX wide angle choices are extremely scant. I do not want primes to cover that range, so I basically have to shell out around $800 to replace my current wide angle with the Sigma 12-24, which has some pretty serious flare issues. Other than that you jump up to around $1,800 for the Nikon 14-24.

And again, primes are great for people who do not travel, but on top of a monster tripod and a beefy body, there is no way I can consider that a viable option outside of the pancakes.

I am all ears though if anyone can suggest a quality FX wide angle that is a minimum of 14mm and can zoom to at least 20 that also comes in under a grand. After dropping another grand to go from the D300s to the D700, it is hard to jusitfy spending much more.



Aug 14, 2009 at 12:55 AM
Makten
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p.5 #9 · D300s or D700


Kerry Pierce wrote:
If I didn't do prints, I'd not own the d700 and probably not the d300. If fact, I'd probably not be doing photography at all. Looking at photos on screen is okay, but I much prefer to look at prints.


Good for you. I'm interested in the picture; not how it is displayed.

Please, lets not pretend that FX lenses are no good on DX or that a lens HAS to be a DX lens to count for use on the DX side.

I never said that.

You're happy with your cheap lenses on FX. I don't know why you think that is the norm, but it certainly is not.

I don't, and I know it is because of the myth that "FX needs expensive lenses", which is pure BS.

The fact is that most people expect to have a variety of lenses to choose from and they want lenses that are sharp edge to edge, corner to corner, without distortions, CA and all that other crap that plagues a lot of FX lenses.

What lenses are you talking about? A simple 50/1.8 is one of the sharpest lenses you can get for FX, from corner to corner.
I personally have a variety of lenses to choose from, AND the 24-70. Most of the time I prefer the very cheap MF ones over the zoom.

With FX, most people simply don't have much choice, other than the expensive pro lenses.

Of course they do, if they're not into snobbery.

With DX you don't have to worry about the edges and corners and there are a lot of modern DX lenses to choose from, along with the modern FX lenses.

Which most of still are less good on DX than on FX. Sure corners can be worse on FX, but I have actually never ever seen any problems with that.

The fast WA thing is a red herring. Not many want to pay the premium for fast WA lenses.

Really? A simple 24/2.8 or 28/2.8 is a fast WA compared to anything for DX.

Personally, I couldn't care less about fast WA. I bought my first one a couple of weeks ago, simply to try to understand why some folks want them. I don't see the big deal with it. It's nice for certain applications, but not something that would have mass appeal when price is factored in.

What price are you reffering to? I got myself a Sigma 20/1.8 a while ago, and it was really cheap and really good. I don't have it still, because I'm one of those who constantly want to try something else.

There seem to be quite a few things that are unimportant to you, which are certainly important to the majority of users. If that weren't true, people wouldn't buy the lenses with AF-S and all that other "garbage".

I'd say it's mostly a marketing thing. I've never used more than 1 fps. I've never had the use for fast AF. I don't lust for AF-S lenses.
What I do want is nice image quality, and that probably goes for alot of people, not shooting sports, birds or similar. All of the landscape guys for instance; why would they "need" AF-S? Or even AF?



Aug 14, 2009 at 02:08 AM
Steezus
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p.5 #10 · D300s or D700


What about ultra wide angle from 10-15mm on FX? That is a pretty popular range with a lot of lens options for DX shooters.

Pushing 24mm for a wide angle solution isn't even close to working for me. Neither is droning on about image quality when the quality of images you can get from practically any modern Canon or Nikon DSLR is outstanding. It is just easier to obtain certain styles of shots with different models. So it gets tiresome reading how someone feels their IQ is better than anything in the world since as stated before, that is mostly personal preference or emotional attachment issue. I have seen amazing pictures for a D40.



Aug 14, 2009 at 03:54 AM
panos.v
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p.5 #11 · D300s or D700


Steezus wrote:
So it gets tiresome reading how someone feels their IQ is better than anything in the world


Yeah but eeeeeeeveryone knows that the <insert camera model> is the best camera in the world and everything else is junk and lacking in IQ. Besides I use the <insert camera model> so it must be the best one since I only use the best. Easy really, if you can't see that then you are an <insert degrading characterisation>. It cannot be tiresome because you are wrong and I must certainly convince you of the one and true path and way so that you can buy the same <insert camera model> camera so that you will agree with me and then I can buy the next model up and tell you what an <insert degrading characterisation> you are for not having that model, which is so much better for taking photos of <insert things you are not interested in>.




Aug 14, 2009 at 04:06 AM
Makten
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p.5 #12 · D300s or D700


Steezus wrote:
What about ultra wide angle from 10-15mm on FX? That is a pretty popular range with a lot of lens options for DX shooters.


What about Sigma 15-30? Seems like a nice lens. I suppose you meant a FX lens eqivalent to 10-15 on DX.

I have seen amazing pictures for a D40.

I have seen amazing pictures from a Holga.

I don't think you get the point. DX is fine for most people. But please, this talk about expensive lenses for FX is just not true for everyone. There are plenty solutions where DX is as expensive as FX, yet still not nearly as good.



Aug 14, 2009 at 05:03 AM
Steezus
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p.5 #13 · D300s or D700


Makten wrote:
What about Sigma 15-30? Seems like a nice lens. I suppose you meant a FX lens eqivalent to 10-15 on DX.


I am pretty sure that is a DX lens. The Sigma 14-24 is their wide angle for FX at the moment.

The more I think about long term--have one camera for 5 years--I do want that D700 for the extremely high iso ability, but seriously, there is an absolute terrible selection for ultra wide angle on FX and unless I am completely missing something, my only real wide angle zoom options are the Sigma 14-24 with flare issues and the Nikkor 14-24 murder weapon that I don't even dare mention to my wife...

I hope I am just omitting a UWA lens that I don't know about, but the silence from the D700 fanboy club leads me to believe there really is a huge gap in that range for FX.




Aug 14, 2009 at 07:36 AM
Awasos23
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p.5 #14 · D300s or D700


Kerry Pierce wrote:
None of those lenses are as "modern" as the 24-120vr. The 24-120vr was introduced in 2003, 50 f/1.8 in 2002, 24-85 AF-S in 2002 now discontinued in favor of the 24-85 AF-D that was introduced in 2000, 18-35 AF-D in 2000. The 70-300 is a good alternative to the 70-200, but the 80-400 is another beast that was introduced in 2000.

With DX, there are a slew of modern, sharp and cheap to mid-level expensive lenses in the WA to 200mm. That is simply not so with FX.




Modern lenses huh? Is that why people gush over Leicas. For the modern lenses right? Or how about the tessar look on Rolleiflexs? Absolute garbage now because they aren't modern?

Lets be honest here. I use lenses made from 1939 to 2008 on a variety of cameras. I seriously doubt a "modern" lens makes that huge of a difference as long as the lens was made well in the first place. AF is still wicked fast (for me) with my 28 AF, 50 AF and 80-200 AF-d ED. The 80-200 does great on horse racing. My MF lenses still capture the scenes that I want in landscape work or even as walkabout lenses.

How about this for example?
http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb228/taylor210eman/Leafweb.jpg

Thats from the D300 and my "Antique" I guess AI'd 55mm f3.5. Useless lens now, I need the 60mm Nano coating one. I don't believe modern to be better, just a different tool. Especially in the macro world, who needs AF?


Back on topic, congrats to the OP, have fun with the D700. You couldn't have gone wrong either way.



Aug 14, 2009 at 07:59 AM
panos.v
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p.5 #15 · D300s or D700


Steezus wrote:
I am pretty sure that is a DX lens. The Sigma 14-24 is their wide angle for FX at the moment.


God, is it really that difficult to check? It takes 3 seconds to google it and see that the 15-30 is a full frame lens and that they have a 12-24, not a 14-24, which is full frame again. The number of posts with wrong focal length, models and info is just ridiculous, given that it takes a couple of seconds to verify what we right is correct. This wrong stuff then comes up in Google when people search for info, only to spread the misinformation further on!



Aug 14, 2009 at 08:10 AM
Andre Labonte
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p.5 #16 · D300s or D700


panos.v wrote:
God, is it really that difficult to check? It takes 3 seconds to google it and see that the 15-30 is a full frame lens and that they have a 12-24, not a 14-24, which is full frame again. The number of posts with wrong focal length, models and info is just ridiculous, given that it takes a couple of seconds to verify what we right is correct. This wrong stuff then comes up in Google when people search for info, only to spread the misinformation further on!


+10 to that!!!!! Then throw in unfounded fanboyism and KR



Aug 14, 2009 at 08:34 AM
Kerry Pierce
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p.5 #17 · D300s or D700


panos.v wrote:
[see that the 15-30 is a full frame lens


The sigma 15-30 is discontinued, according to sigma america.



Aug 14, 2009 at 09:38 AM
Makten
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p.5 #18 · D300s or D700


Steezus wrote:
I am pretty sure that is a DX lens. The Sigma 14-24 is their wide angle for FX at the moment.


15-30 is FF and the 12-24 too.

The more I think about long term--have one camera for 5 years--I do want that D700 for the extremely high iso ability, but seriously, there is an absolute terrible selection for ultra wide angle on FX and unless I am completely missing something, my only real wide angle zoom options are the Sigma 14-24 with flare issues and the Nikkor 14-24 murder weapon that I don't even dare mention to my wife...

I think your definition of "ultra wide" is wider than for most of us. There are plenty of lenses as short as 17 mm, which is very wide indeed. That's equivalent to 11 mm on DX. There are currently only a few lenses wider than that for DX:

Tamron 10-24
Nikon 10-24
Sigma 10-20 Mk I
Sigma 10-20 Mk II

So yes, if you really need that extra wideness, there are two more lenses for DX than FX. If you choose to ignore the primes; Sigma 14/3.5, Sigma 14/2.8, Tamron 14/2.8, Nikkor 14/2.8.

Edit: And Kerry, even if they are discontinued, they are still available on the market as used.

I hope I am just omitting a UWA lens that I don't know about, but the silence from the D700 fanboy club leads me to believe there really is a huge gap in that range for FX.

The gap might be "huge" because few people use such wide lenses. If cost is a factor, a D300 with 10-24 is probably a good choice. If the 10-24 is good. Haven't seen any reports on it yet.



Aug 14, 2009 at 09:50 AM
TonyBeach
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p.5 #19 · D300s or D700


Makten wrote:
What I do want is nice image quality, and that probably goes for alot of people, not shooting sports, birds or similar. All of the landscape guys for instance; why would they "need" AF-S? Or even AF?


Really, I find the tone of many of your posts in this thread downright offensive. As if the D300 does not have "nice image quality." Arguing that the D700 is miles ahead of the D300 is tiresome fanboyism.


"There are plenty solutions where DX is as expensive as FX, yet still not nearly as good.


There are more situations where FX is more expensive, and offers no significant advantages.




Aug 14, 2009 at 10:26 AM
Steezus
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p.5 #20 · D300s or D700


panos.v wroteGod, is it really that difficult to check? It takes 3 seconds to google it and see that the 15-30 is a full frame lens and that they have a 12-24, not a 14-24, which is full frame again. The number of posts with wrong focal length, models and info is just ridiculous, given that it takes a couple of seconds to verify what we right is correct. This wrong stuff then comes up in Google when people search for info, only to spread the misinformation further on!

Whoa, sorry, didn't mean to cause you so much undue butthurtness. I actually googled the 15-30 and found an amateur review that said it was a APS-C lens only. Since I was at work, I went ahead and posted and seriously didn't intend so much butthurtness. My mistake on the 14-24 as well. I have been going in and out of every lens manufacturers specs looking for an UWA which isn't 24mm and isn't a fish eye, it is usually around 12-20mm when you sort them on B&H. Really, I apologize for this incident.

Man, I really want to just pull the trigger on a D700 and a new wide angle, but some of the D700 fanboys on here actually make me want to just go buy a D300s just to prove that you don't have to have a full frame camera to achieve great results. The real reason I feel I should just get a D700 is because the high iso will be something that APS-C will not match for a few years to come. Oh, plus... It is just so awesome bestesness, I can feel it in my heart.




Aug 14, 2009 at 11:23 AM
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