p.6 #1 · is popularity of dslr a bad things to pros?
Just the same case as open source software threatens the business revenue of paid apps that do pretty much the same.
- OpenOffice vs MS Office
- Linux vs Windows/OS X
- AVG free anti-virus vs Norton/McAfee "Choke-Your-PC" products
Some people will want open source software, yet have no competition to their own business or job, and hate it when people do their job for much less. No common ground when it comes to paid vs open source.
p.6 #2 · is popularity of dslr a bad things to pros?
KaaX wrote:
Why is that?
Let's say I'm a guest at a wedding. I bring my camera with the intention of making a few pictures and then gifting them to the newlyweds. Why in the world should I be concerned with the fact that your business model stinks and is no longer viable? You're a hired servant and your profit problems are not my problems.
I'm not going to push myself in front of your camera, but I expect the same in return. If you insist on elbowing your way to stand in front of my lens, I'll move you aside.
Kaa
I have no idea what this has to do with my business model, but I can assure you that your presence at a wedding I'm shooting is irrelevant to my business model.
If you're not going to push yourself in front of my camera, and ruin my exposures with your flash, then by all means shoot away. If you do end up in my frame, you'll be politely asked to try not to do so. I said nothing about elbows. What I will not do as a paid shooter, however, is make a conscious effort to stay out of the GWC's frame. I've got to get the shot. Period.
p.6 #3 · is popularity of dslr a bad things to pros?
h_rearden wrote:
I have no idea what this has to do with my business model, but I can assure you that your presence at a wedding I'm shooting is irrelevant to my business model.
If you're not going to push yourself in front of my camera, and ruin my exposures with your flash, then by all means shoot away. If you do end up in my frame, you'll be politely asked to try not to do so. I said nothing about elbows. What I will not do as a paid shooter, however, is make a conscious effort to stay out of the GWC's frame. I've got to get the shot. Period....Show more →
I have to agree with this. The paid photographer is, by the virtue of the contract, given access and there is expectation that he will perform. If a guest interferes with that access and performance, I would guess that the bride/groom would support the photographer, not the guest.
p.6 #4 · is popularity of dslr a bad things to pros?
h_rearden wrote:
I have no idea what this has to do with my business model, but I can assure you that your presence at a wedding I'm shooting is irrelevant to my business model.
If you're not going to push yourself in front of my camera, and ruin my exposures with your flash, then by all means shoot away. If you do end up in my frame, you'll be politely asked to try not to do so. I said nothing about elbows. What I will not do as a paid shooter, however, is make a conscious effort to stay out of the GWC's frame. I've got to get the shot. Period....Show more →
The usual reason why wedding shooters object to GWCs is because their business model depends on sales of prints post-wedding and and if there are free pictures from GWCs, B&G tend to buy less from the pro. If your business model is different, I'm glad for you.
As long as everyone's polite and reasonable, I have no problems with accommodating other shooters, paid and unpaid. A smile and a request along the lines of "I'd appreciate if you avoid coming close to the bride for the next five minutes" is not a problem at all. However some wedding pros actively try to screw up guests' pictures and often enough brag about it on the forums. That I have issues with.
p.6 #5 · is popularity of dslr a bad things to pros?
saaketham wrote:
Just the same case as open source software threatens the business revenue of paid apps that do pretty much the same.
- OpenOffice vs MS Office
- Linux vs Windows/OS X
- AVG free anti-virus vs Norton/McAfee "Choke-Your-PC" products
Some people will want open source software, yet have no competition to their own business or job, and hate it when people do their job for much less. No common ground when it comes to paid vs open source.
Not really the same. The presence of OpenOffice on your system will not affect the functionality or final product from MS Office, whereas open source shooters at a wedding can adversely affect the final product from the paid shooter by being in the way, spraying their flash all over the place, and generally distracting the paid shooter and the subjects being photographed. All the B&Gs that I have worked with have agreed that I should not have to deal with that, and it is their opinion that counts.
p.6 #6 · is popularity of dslr a bad things to pros?
KaaX wrote:
The usual reason why wedding shooters object to GWCs is because their business model depends on sales of prints post-wedding and and if there are free pictures from GWCs, B&G tend to buy less from the pro. If your business model is different, I'm glad for you.
As long as everyone's polite and reasonable, I have no problems with accommodating other shooters, paid and unpaid. A smile and a request along the lines of "I'd appreciate if you avoid coming close to the bride for the next five minutes" is not a problem at all. However some wedding pros actively try to screw up guests' pictures and often enough brag about it on the forums. That I have issues with.
Correct. I do not charge for prints. So GWCs pose no risk except that they can get in the way, mess up my exposures, and generally just be a pain in the ass, yapping about gear and whatnot.
My earlier comments may have prompted you to slot me into that "elbow" group, but I can assure you that is not me. I am always polite, and if there is an ongoing issue I simply ask someone in charge to remind the offender that the B&G have paid a lot of money for professional photography services and that they need to yield to the paid shooters at all times.
I simply wish I didn't have to deal with it at all, which is why I think GWCs should just relax, get drunk, and let me and my partner do our jobs.
p.6 #7 · is popularity of dslr a bad things to pros?
nathanlake wrote:
I have to agree with this. The paid photographer is, by the virtue of the contract, given access and there is expectation that he will perform. If a guest interferes with that access and performance, I would guess that the bride/groom would support the photographer, not the guest.
My guess would be this is wrong. Unless the guest is making an ass of him/herself, the bride and groom are probably going to side on the guest. Regardless of contract, I don't think many people are going to appreciate a wedding photographer imposing him/herself on the guest telling them that they're ruining whatever it is they're ruining.
Remember that the Photographer, while an integral part in "capturing the memory" is still supposed to get out of the way.
p.6 #8 · is popularity of dslr a bad things to pros?
I own some pretty nice wood shop tools. Anybody want me to build their house? I also own a couple of brand new X-acto knives so if anyone needs an appendectomy in southern New England, I'm your man. Much better prices than any local surgeons too.
I think you get my point... giving someone a 135L and a Mark III doesn't make them a pro. And as others have said, anyone with the money to do so can go buy the best equipment there is to buy. There's no license and ability test to get great stuff.
p.6 #9 · is popularity of dslr a bad things to pros?
h_rearden wrote:
The point is that a lot of shooters (regardless of dSLR or P&S) get overzealous and end up either a) in the shot or b) fracking-up the exposure of my shot with their stupid flash. Despite this all being discussed with the B&G before-hand, these situations often occur. Since I'm the one being paid, it is my job to do whatever it takes to get the shot. If it means walking in front of a GWC, then I have the right of way. Simple as that.
So, I'm not saying that there is no place for GWCs at a wedding. What I'm saying is that they should show some respect and always yield to the people being paid to shoot. The fact that they might grab some good shots is irrelevant if they have ruined many of the paid shooters shots. Ask any B&G and they will agree....Show more →
Unless you really are the a$$hole who took my sister's money, I'd appreciate it if you stop making assumption on what I did at the wedding. I wasn't only taking photos of the B&G but also my family & relatives. There were so many people there to take candid of that there's no need to get in each other's way.
Show some respect? Hahaha... who do you think you are anyway? You're the outsider who's getting paid to take photos in the ceremony, you're the one who should show some respect. What do you think is gonna happen if you upset one of the B&G's parents? I think you'd find the B&G a little less agreeable with you.
Again, if you can't handle flashes from other cameras at a ceremony where people would naturally take lots of photos, I think you really should quit mate.
p.6 #10 · is popularity of dslr a bad things to pros?
kakomu wrote:
My guess would be this is wrong. Unless the guest is making an ass of him/herself, the bride and groom are probably going to side on the guest. Regardless of contract, I don't think many people are going to appreciate a wedding photographer imposing him/herself on the guest telling them that they're ruining whatever it is they're ruining.
Remember that the Photographer, while an integral part in "capturing the memory" is still supposed to get out of the way.
100% of my experiences in these situations show precisely the opposite. B&G are always on my side. But, then again, I approach it the right way. Once I resorted to showing the groom a series of over-exposed shots of himself and the bride with orange and green glowing lights on their faces (from the AF assist lamps, flashes, etc.). He immediately piped up and told everyone to let the photographers take the photos.
p.6 #11 · is popularity of dslr a bad things to pros?
at one wedding I shot, a non-authorized photog bashed his DSLR into my rig at the very second that the ceromony began. My flash intermitently failed during the short ceremony... I still managed to produce a nice package, but it was scary. What an idiot.
p.6 #12 · is popularity of dslr a bad things to pros?
h_rearden wrote:
My earlier comments may have prompted you to slot me into that "elbow" group, but I can assure you that is not me. I am always polite, and if there is an ongoing issue I simply ask someone in charge to remind the offender that the B&G have paid a lot of money for professional photography services and that they need to yield to the paid shooters at all times.
Coulda fooled me with your idea of how to deal with the guest in your earlier post.
p.6 #13 · is popularity of dslr a bad things to pros?
n0b0 wrote:
Unless you really are the a$$hole who took my sister's money, I'd appreciate it if you stop making assumption on what I did at the wedding. I wasn't only taking photos of the B&G but also my family & relatives. There were so many people there to take candid of that there's no need to get in each other's way.
Show some respect? Hahaha... who do you think you are anyway? You're the outsider who's getting paid to take photos in the ceremony, you're the one who should show some respect. What do you think is gonna happen if you upset one of the B&G's parents? I think you'd find the B&G a little less agreeable with you.
Again, if you can't handle flashes from other cameras at a ceremony where people would naturally take lots of photos, I think you really should quit mate....Show more →
I can handle it. The point is, I shouldn't have to. Common courtesy should be enough, but like common sense, common courtesy is becoming far less common these days.
I've explained my point of view. I'm not the rude bastard who intentionally walked into your frame at the wedding and the thought would never cross my mind. However, I wouldn't go out of my way to avoid it if I had to get a shot. That's what the B&G are counting on and paying for.
p.6 #15 · is popularity of dslr a bad things to pros?
mh2000 wrote:
at one wedding I shot, a non-authorized photog bashed his DSLR into my rig at the very second that the ceromony began. My flash intermitently failed during the short ceremony... I still managed to produce a nice package, but it was scary. What an idiot.
He sounds about as respectful and decent of a guy as the "brother-in-law videographer" at a wedding I shot. Countless wonderful shots of the B&G at the altar, with that dumbass 2 feet behind the minister. I did try to wave him to the side politely (which is on the video) but he chose to ignore me. The B&G are pissed at him, not me.
p.6 #16 · is popularity of dslr a bad things to pros?
h_rearden wrote:
I simply wish I didn't have to deal with it at all...
That's part and parcel of being a wedding photographer and one of the differences it has from studio photography.
Yes, sure, it would be much more convenient if no one else had any cameras. But that's not going to happen and dealing with a semi-drunk crowd that happily flashes each other with P&Ses is what a pro is supposed to handle in polite and non-confrontational manner. Part of the job description and a necessary part of the skill set.
p.6 #18 · is popularity of dslr a bad things to pros?
n0b0 wrote:
What happened to asking someone in charge to remind the offender blah blah blah?
What I meant was, if I need to get the shot and it means I need to step into someone else's frame, then that's what I am going to do. There isn't always time to ask and I think any GWC with half a brain will realize that I am not doing it to be rude, but because I have a responsibility to do it.
I would not, however, go out of my way to screw up his/her shots on purpose.
p.6 #20 · is popularity of dslr a bad things to pros?
KaaX wrote:
That's part and parcel of being a wedding photographer and one of the differences it has from studio photography.
Yes, sure, it would be much more convenient if no one else had any cameras. But that's not going to happen and dealing with a semi-drunk crowd that happily flashes each other with P&Ses is what a pro is supposed to handle in polite and non-confrontational manner. Part of the job description and a necessary part of the skill set.
Kaa
Quite correct and that's what I do, but if I can't express my frustrations on a photography forum, then where?
