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Archive 2009 · Alien Bee or White Lightning?

  
 
4honor
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p.1 #1 · Alien Bee or White Lightning?


I was about ready to purchase a set of triggers (Cybersyncs), but then I realized that Paul Buff has two brands of the same thing... What's going on? Different country?

Anyways, prices seems the same, which one do you guys buy?



Apr 03, 2009 at 03:56 PM
Future Man
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p.1 #2 · Alien Bee or White Lightning?


I thought they didn't make White Lightning anymore, Alien Bee is basically the new version? Maybe I'm wrong though.

I just came on here to ask about Alien Bees, so I guess I'll ask in here.

In my studio lighting class right now, I've been using a Calumet light kit which has two flash heads that connect to a power pack that goes up to 1,600 w/s. How does this compare to the Alien Bee 1,600 which is listed as "640 true w/s"?



Apr 03, 2009 at 04:08 PM
Scott Clark
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p.1 #3 · Alien Bee or White Lightning?


Both web sites have some of the same products--the CyberSyncs, Vagabond, etc. are all the same...doesn't matter which site you order from, you'll get the same thing. Only the AB and WL specific products are different... PUSH THE BUTTON .


Apr 03, 2009 at 04:08 PM
cgardner
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p.1 #4 · Alien Bee or White Lightning?


Until you get to the 1600 (600 W/S) level they have the same internals but the cases on the WL are metal not plastic and the attachments for the softboxes more robust. The WL brand came before the AB line and was marketed to professionals. Go to any mall at Christmas and you'll find the photo with Santa booth using a singe WL1600 with a med. SB turned horizontally directly over the camera: simple but effective. The AB line is marketed primarily to hobbyists, but many pros also use them. The cases, while plastic, are very tough plastic.

The WL1600 is switchable between full and 1/4 power, so in one unit you'd have the equivalent of an 400 model for indoors (160 w/s) and 1600 for battling the sun or large groups, each with a 5 or 6 (forget which) stop range of control.

I bought a set of four AB800s for home use. They operate in the middle of their power range most of the time for individuals - small family groups indoors. With a med. softbox at 3ft a meter reads f/4 to f/22 over the min - max power range.

Buff is coming out with a new Einstein line soon with improved control, so you might want to wait a bit longer before buying.



Apr 03, 2009 at 04:09 PM
4honor
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p.1 #5 · Alien Bee or White Lightning?


Scott Clark wrote:
PUSH THE BUTTON .


Hey Scott, not another word from you!

If Chuck didn't recommend it, maybe I don't need it... :P



Apr 03, 2009 at 04:20 PM
mmurph
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p.1 #6 · Alien Bee or White Lightning?


Future Man wrote:
that goes up to 1,600 w/s. How does this compare to the Alien Bee 1,600 which is listed as "640 true w/s"?


Forget that you ever heard the words "true watt seconds" (or "effective watt seconds" if you got that far on the AB web site.) You will only make a fool of yourself if you use those terms anywhere else!

The AB's are 640 Ws, the Calumet are 1600 Ws. Leave it at that!!



Apr 03, 2009 at 04:47 PM
Marcel VanEerd
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p.1 #7 · Alien Bee or White Lightning?


I'm using the old WL's... 2x WL10,000 and 1x WL5,000. Same appearance for both. Simply can't kill them. They use a regular 100W bulb for modelling light and the electronics inside are built with the KISS principle.

Like these:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3661/3318948771_79072639ee.jpg



Apr 03, 2009 at 04:57 PM
Future Man
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p.1 #8 · Alien Bee or White Lightning?


Hmm, ok, thanks. So Buff is being a little misleading with these numbers, or do other manufacturers use this "true watt seconds" terminology?

The Calumet pack I have actually goes up to 2,400 w/s. So if you are just powering one light, it can go up to 2,400 w/s compared to 640 for the most powerful Alien Bee. I guess that's why the Calumets are so much more expensive. From what I've been reading on here though, the B800s are powerful enough for most indoor situations (and looking on Flickr, some people are using them outside with impressive results).



Apr 03, 2009 at 04:59 PM
mmurph
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p.1 #9 · Alien Bee or White Lightning?


Future Man wrote:
So Buff is being a little misleading with these numbers, or do other manufacturers use this "true watt seconds" terminology?


He is the only one who uses that terminology. Everyone else just talks about power and "watt seconds." The 640 is the correct number.

About once a month or so there is a long thread here arguing about the terms. Apparently, somewhere once upon a time in prehistory someone used another number that came to be called "effective watt seconds" and ... blah blah blah.

I assume the Calumet is a pack and head system? Most monolights - self contained units like the AB's - top out around 500 ws. Speedotron does makes a 1,000 Ws monolight. But usually people go to a pack and head system when more power is needed. Like the 2400 Ws on the Calumet.

I use both monolights and pack and heads, but I prefer pack and heads overall.

It really comes down to personal preference after a ceratin point. Monolights tend to be more popular among people who do mostly portraits. You will rarely see monolights used in non-portrait set-ups.

The AB's are decent units. A little "bare bones" in some areas, like relatively low powered modelling lights (used to be a 100 watt light bulb. 250 watts is more common/useful, lik ethe WL's.) The WL's are fine, as are most other units in the same price range or higher.

After a while they are all pretty similar, until you get strong personal preferences for specific features.



Apr 03, 2009 at 05:31 PM
Paul Buff
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p.1 #10 · Alien Bee or White Lightning?


mmurph wrote:
He is the only one who uses that terminology. Everyone else just talks about power and "watt seconds." The 640 is the correct number.

About once a month or so there is a long thread here arguing about the terms. Apparently, somewhere once upon a time in prehistory someone used another number that came to be called "effective watt seconds" and ... blah blah blah.

I assume the Calumet is a pack and head system? Most monolights - self contained units like the AB's - top out around 500 ws. Speedotron does makes a 1,000 Ws monolight. But usually people
...Show more
Not true. Several other manufacturers use the same ratings, except they don't state the actual WS clearly and predominantly, as we always have. I won't name names, but there are several monolights that simply state "XXXWS" when the true WS is less than half of what's stated.

I suggest actually reading our published specs on the web or our literature and you will find them more complete and accurate than about anything else on the market.



Apr 03, 2009 at 07:59 PM
4honor
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p.1 #11 · Alien Bee or White Lightning?


oh wow, Paul Buff has an account on here! Heh, I am about to give him some of my money...


Apr 03, 2009 at 08:24 PM
mmurph
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p.1 #12 · Alien Bee or White Lightning?


Paul Buff wrote:
Not true. Several other manufacturers use the same ratings, except they don't state the actual WS clearly and predominantly, as we always have.


Just do a search Paul.

The AB folks are the ones coming here all confused. I can just imagine them asking a Dynalite or Profoto rep "are those actual or effective Ws?"

This is from 6 weeks ago here on FM:

Please forgive if this has been posted before, but I just purchased a set of AlienBees B400 strobes (with an AlienBees B800 on the way).

I assumed when I bought the lights that the "400 Effective W/S" description meant that somehow, AlienBees had these lights firing the equivalent of 400 W/S.

However, when paired with a 300 W/S light that a friend of mine has, they're nowhere near the same power (about 3 stops less, f11 vs f5.6). When I asked AlienBees about this, no one could explain the difference in Actual W/S vs. Effective W/S ratings. AlienBees said that it was to determine how comparable they were to Chinese-made lights or something like that. I still don't get it...Can anyone explain this to me?




Apr 03, 2009 at 08:55 PM
bacilonur
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p.1 #13 · Alien Bee or White Lightning?


Arg, let's not have this discussion again.

Photogenic still names their lights with ridiculously high numbers instead of the real WS. The only reason it gets asked about ABs instead of Photogenics or whatever other lights do it is because ABs are so popular.

And as to the claim of an AB400 being less powerful than a 300ws Chinese unit, without knowing that the same modifier was used, it's useless.



Apr 03, 2009 at 10:58 PM
cgardner
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p.1 #14 · Alien Bee or White Lightning?


The best advice to anyone buying photo gear of any kind is to do your research. Its not unlike buying a car where you need to decide on 4, 6 or 8 cylinders and the level of horsepower you want. Just think about horsepower for a sec. When is the last time you saw a horse pull anything? So do you have any clue what 1 Horsepower represents? It was a term create by James Watt to market his steam engines. I'm sure in his day people were arguing about what breed and size the horses he was using for comparison were

The standard for measurement in exposure is f/stop and shutter speed. Since shutter speed isn't a factor and studio lights generally come with a "Standard" reflector it would be far more meaningful for manufacturers to state power in terms of guide number with their "standard" reflector (and others) as done with hot shoe flash. Its a benchmark those moving from hot shoe to studio flash can relate to.

Paul to his credit does have a chart on his site which shows typical exposures in f/stops for the various models, but the "effective watt second" thing is confusing and hurts the reputation of the product with threads like this. Alien Bees now define the low end of the market now Paul so there's no longer the need justify the confusing terminology based on the rationale that others use it. So would be a wise move for PCB live in the present instead of the past and drop the "effective watt seconds" thing, and letting it become a historical footnote from the days when Photogenic was his primary competition.

Stating the power as of the AB models as "AB400 160 W/S (f/?? at 10ft with standard reflector) would more than likely cause people to think "Hmmm... maybe that's not enough power so I better get the AB800s" . They will "upsell" themselves. Since when is that a bad thing in any business?

I speak from personal experience. For years I'd relied on window light and hot shoe flash because I didn't have a need for studio lights. So the fact one had 300 W/S and another was 600 W/S meant very little to me because I had never know the W/S rating of the flashes I was using. So instead I relied on people in the fora who used the various Buff models and other brands to explain what the costs and the practical limits of each model are, just as the 4honor has done here in this thread.

400: Start kit you''ll probably outgrow but enough power for accents like hair lights

800: Will handle most average portrait tasks indoors but will max out when attempting full-length shots on white background or doing battle with the sun outdoors

1600: Overkilll for average portrait tasks indoors but minimum you should consider if trying to shoot full length on white, illuminate large spaces, or shoot large groups, indoors or out. At this level the features of the AB/WL brands become more evident with the WL1600 offering the dual power band I mentioned previously.

Budget is an important consideration if you can't write off the cost of your equipment so the first step should be to create your dream studio set-up you want "all in" and see if you can justify the cost. That will help you decide which brand will be the most practical choice budget-wise over the long haul. If you have dreams of being wildly successful and using only the best someday you'll want to consider the resale potential of your initial purchases. For a beginner starting with a pair of AB800 level units is a good opening gambit. They are more than adequate for the tasks most beginners will deal with. With a bit of experience using the 800 series lights with various modifiers the user will be able to make their own informed decision whether the same, more or less "horsepower" is needed when buying the additional lights need for more advanced lighting scenarios. If one opts to move to the more expensive brands there is a very strong demand for used Bees so recouping the initial investment will be no problem. So it that sense you are really just leasing them at a very low rate

Chuck



Apr 04, 2009 at 07:29 AM
Chrono1081
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p.1 #15 · Alien Bee or White Lightning?


I want alienbees :'(


Apr 04, 2009 at 07:45 AM
RobertLynn
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p.1 #16 · Alien Bee or White Lightning?


Chrono1081 wrote:
I want alienbees :'(


Then buy them money bags

I want to say that the AB's are made out of Lexan (I read that somewhere) and 1/4 inch lexan is damn near bullet proof.



Apr 04, 2009 at 08:39 AM
Chrono1081
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p.1 #17 · Alien Bee or White Lightning?


RobertLynn wrote:
Then buy them money bags

I want to say that the AB's are made out of Lexan (I read that somewhere) and 1/4 inch lexan is damn near bullet proof.


Lmao I was eyeing the packages that have. I will probably end up getting some when I come home. Then we can both use em!



Apr 04, 2009 at 08:45 AM
Paul Buff
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p.1 #18 · Alien Bee or White Lightning?


Read the specs and the explanations here. Find another manufacturer that explains in this detail. We offer complete specs and explanations. Certain other companies just stick a number up and call it WS even though it may not bear any resemblance to true WS. Lumenseconds is the only real specification of flash energy, but nobody is interested.

http://www.paulcbuff.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=63
http://www.alienbees.com/specs.html



Apr 04, 2009 at 11:34 AM
RDKirk
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p.1 #19 · Alien Bee or White Lightning?


Read the specs and the explanations here. Find another manufacturer that explains in this detail. We offer complete specs and explanations. Certain other companies just stick a number up and call it WS even though it may not bear any resemblance to true WS. Lumenseconds is the only real specification of flash energy, but nobody is interested.

Well, for sure nobody in these price ranges supply as much product information as one can find on the Alien Bees and White Lightning.



Apr 04, 2009 at 12:09 PM
RDKirk
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p.1 #20 · Alien Bee or White Lightning?


I think the OPs initial question was whether there was a difference between the CyberSyncs sold from the AB site and those sold from the WL site. The answer, given by Scott, is that the peripheral equipment from both sites is the same.

This thread also veered into the difference between Alien Bee and White Lightning flash units. This is my "Big Post of Differences."

The basic circuitry of the current WL and the AB is the same, the differences being primarily in physical and thermal robustness. The AB circuit is actually the "mother" design of the current WL circuitry.

The AB circuitry is on two boards relatively close together in the shell; the WL circuitry (same basic design) is spread across four boards in a larger shell. I speculate that makes it easier to cool.

The WL 1600 and 3200 units have a 1/4 power step down control. This enables them to be more consistent at very low power than the single-stage adjustment of the AB, according to my tests. However, both of them are well equal to the consistency you'll find in any other flash unit anywhere close to their price ranges with otherwise comparable specs. Don't expect more money to automatically buy better consistency. The WL 1600 and 3200 lights also go to a much lower power than the AB lights because of the 1/4 power button.

The AB has a 1/8-inch mono sync jack; the WL has a 1/4-inch stereo sync jack (it's really only two poles, but you need a stereo plug with both the barrel and the ring grounded to make the connection correctly).

The WL shell is solid aluminum while the AB shell is Lexan. That makes the WL physically tougher, but in practice, it actually takes quite a serious whack to break the Lexan--and I doubt the circuits of either can stand that many gees. It would probably make a difference under a PRESSURE situation, like boxes (or luggage) stacked on the lights. I'd expect the Lexan would eventually deflect enough to bend something inside, where the WL would resist the pressure.

The stand mount of the WL is cast and machined aluminum; the mount of the AB is polycarbonate. I have heard of people breaking the AB mount or pulling out the metal threads by dogging it down really hard, but I've never broken one.

The WL has a 250 watt modeling light; the AB now comes with a 150 watt halogen lamp. Paul has also said that a 250 volt bulb can be used on AlienBees IF it's used in an open-air situation, like an umbrella or very large softbox...but I'd be very wary of a small softbox. Paul says that the eventual damage of using a 250 watt bulb is to the bulb socket itself, not to the electronics.

The WL has a better thermally protective design that makes the difference. In practice, 150-watts is more than adequate for the kind of living room portraits the ABs are best suited for. If you're lighting larger sets or using larger modifiers, you want the WL modeling light power.

The WL has separate manual controls for the flash and modeling power while the AB has a single control for them both. The WL levers are directly parallel to each other, so it's just as easy to flick them both simultaneously with the same finger as it is to manipulate the single AB lever, which makes it all a matter of taste.

The "modern" style of low-to-mid-priced studio flash units is flat membrane buttons and LED power level displays, but I find these levers to have much better useability in the real world. Membrane buttons and LED displays require the user to have a direct view of the rear panel. In practice, the rear panel is often above eye level and pointing upwards, which would make it difficult to operate membrane buttons or see an LED display. The AB and WL controls are operable by feel even when 'way over your head (Bowens/Travelite is even a bit better--dials on the side).

The WL has a thermal-controlled fan--it comes on when necessary (which always tends to be "eventually" on a long job); the AB has a constant-on fan. The AB fan is a bit quieter and lower in pitch than the WL fan, but neither is objectionable--I have a laptop that has a louder fan.

The fingers of the WL reflector mount are cast and machined; the AB fingers are slightly less substantial stamped metal. The method of actuating the fingers is also mechanically more efficient on the WL than the AB (that is, has a greater mechanical advantage to stay clamped). Also, the WL reflector mount is screwed into the aluminum housing; the AB reflector mount is screwed into the Lexan.

The umbrella mount of the AB is a rather short tunnel through the Lexan with a simple screw to hold it; again, it looks weaker than I'd like to see, although I've never broken one. The WL, on the other hand, grasps the umbrella shaft in a long, long tube of cast aluminum with a beefy, confidence-inspiring holding clamp.

Those differences mean the WL can theoretically hold a far heavier light modifier than the AB. However, the AB mount is no wimp, and, again, it can hold just about anything you'd use for living-room portraiture.

The WL lights are heavier and longer than the AB lights--substantially so in the higher wattages.

The AB's Lexan shell and polycarbonate stand mount means it can't drain off static electricity as readily as the WL's aluminum shell and aluminum mount. Some people have reported that under very dry and stacticky conditions, they've gotten spurious flashes when they touched an AB after walking across a carpeted floor; this should not be a problem for the WL--the aluminum shell is directly grounded through the power cable.

All in all, I'd categorize the differences as being compact/lightweight versus tough/high endurance. If you work constantly on location (as I did for a good while), the compactness and light weight of the AB units is very important. If you carry, say, four or five lights on location, it's as little as half the weight with AB units. The low cost helps, too, because while ABs take a licking and still keep ticking, I would shed fewer tears if a truck backed over my ABs than my WLs.

In small-set situations like most portraits, the AB modeling lights are adequate. But if you're doing larger-set commercial work, if you need lights that can flash rapidly all day long, day in and day out week after week, need the best consistency at very low power, and weight isn't such a factor for you, then the White Lightning has advantages.

Either unit becomes positively glorious when combined with full remote control. I can't trumpet loudly enough about the utility of full wireless remote control of all functions, including modeling lights and power--you couldn't get remote control as effective as Paul Buff's old Radio Remote One ANY price.

I put that in past tense because sales of that model have ceased; Buff has announced a new, more effective system that will debut along with a new model of monolight he's dubbed "Einstein." They're scheduled to debut soon and they sound pretty exciting from the information that's been released on his forum. Fortunately the new remote control is supposed to provide as much and more capability with the old lights as the Radio Remote One ever did.



Apr 04, 2009 at 12:29 PM
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