I ran into one for video the other week. Advertising a gig for pay, requires either HD or a camera that can shoot 24p to shoot an interview. So I'm gonna need lav's and lights also. They ask for a reel and resume and say it'll only take about 3 hours. It's a producer in LA doing a documentary on the blind and a specialist is in the city like 15 minutes from me, seems a perfect match. I send links to my stuff and also a description of the almost 10k worth of gear I'll be dragging out to do this, the reply i get?
" That sounds great! Is there any chance you would be willing to do this for gas money and a free meal? Our budget is exteremely tight for this shoot."
I said No, free doesn't pay my bills. Is that really what they consider 'Pay' in LA?
Nathan Whitchu wrote:
" That sounds great! Is there any chance you would be willing to do this for gas money and a free meal? Our budget is exteremely tight for this shoot."
I said No, free doesn't pay my bills. Is that really what they consider 'Pay' in LA?
The problem with LA/Hollywood is that the film schools turn out waaaay toooo many graduates. At one time there were just a few colleges with film programs, now it seems like most have a film/video dept.
So what do these graduates do? Why they come to LA/Hollywood! There are as many looking for Director and DP jobs as there are those looking for acting work.
What happens is that some these people get hired by direct to video producers. The pay ranges from meals/film credit to low pay. Something like $150.00 a day for a DP with a 24p camera and a lighting/grip package/truck. Others don't get caught in this trap. They work on legitimate low budgets that pay anything from meals/film credit to real pay.
It really is possible to hire people with talent for no/low pay in LA. Sad to say.
ferradas wrote:
...... We can also serve as a reference if you seek a job as a photographer. .....
AND about a week after he takes these photos, he posts on here and says " Hey Dudes, I shoot bands, last week I took these pix of this awesome up and coming group. I don't know what happened to them. Can anybody fix them in Photoshop for me. TKS Dudes. "
That is actually the farthest thing from conventional wisdom. One only need to travel around the world and look at the various prices changed for things in different countries. You can pay $4 for Coke in Russia or $0.15 for a Coke in Nepal. Prices are adjusted based on what the consumer is able or willing to pay. That is how capitalism works. It that were the conventional wisdom, then there would be no such thing as competition based on price. Only one price would exist and competition would be based on value. Equal value products would fetch the same price.
Furthermore, as long as the market at least ocassionally will provide a free service, people will continue to ask.
So, Whiskey Hill asks for free photographs. If they get them, they will probably continue ask. As soon as the market is such that free is not available they will either pay, or not have photos.
The reality is that photography services at some level of quality will probably always be available for free. Easy and cheap access to high quality equipment, combined with free access to huge amounts of information on how to take a good photo, and lots of leisure time for those employed in some other field, will ensure free photography is always going to be available.
Nathan Whitchu wrote:
I send links to my stuff and also a description of the almost 10k worth of gear I'll be dragging out to do this, the reply i get?
" That sounds great! Is there any chance you would be willing to do this for gas money and a free meal? Our budget is exteremely tight for this shoot."
Yeah, people want you to show up and work for 1/4 of what you would charge just to rent them the camera!
Maybe that is the ticket - "will work fore free" - but you have to rent the equipment. Idiots.
nathanlake wrote:
Some photographers charge an equipment rental fee in addition to thier fee.
I have always done that for my "real" jobs.
I provide basic equipment as part of the overall quote for the job. Say a Canon 40D and a basic lighting setup.
But I charge for high-end equipment, usually at 1/2 the going rate that a rental shop would charge. So $125 a day in the past for my Canon 1DsII (an $8K camera) instead of the $250 a NY rental shop would charge. About the same rate for my Broncolor Para 220 with a ringflash and Broncolor Topas pack (a $10K light setup.)
I live in a small town (Ann Arbor, MI) and there are no decent rental houses within 2 hours. I stumbled into an addiction to using high-end equipment, but I can't find it to rent any closer than Chicago - about 4 hours each way. So I buy it, then charge back to the client at a reduced rate when I need it for a job. Partly to cover capital costs, partly to mitigate the risk and wear and tear of using the equipment on location (which really both come to the same thing - depreciation.)
It is still a bit of a "profit center". At least it was back when I had clients.
If I wanted to shoot for free or drinks I could be busy about 3-5 nights a week but, I am not insane and do not want to pee in the river from which I drink - devalue photography.
If I shoot something for somebody else to use for free it must be pretty special and must be something that benefits me or I believe in. In the past year I have only shot one thing free - my friends baby announcements. They are very close friends and helped me our immensely in the past.
Like many I have a full time job and co-workers know I work professionally shooting weddings and was published in a book. At our holiday party this past weekend they were surprised I did not bring my gear as I am the "professional photographer" in the office. I just said it was to much stuff to haul tot he party - the truth is why should I give it to my company for free? I let the other guests run around with their DSLR's and PAS cameras do it.
As for Craigslist, I have gotten quite a bit of work as a second shooter there but I also have a few rules about that; I will not sign a "work for hire agreement", I will use photo's in my portfolio and on my website, I will not hand over my memory cards, I will not use their memory cards. I also have my rates which seem to be higher than most others for a second shooter.
When I come across a good ad for this thread I will put up here - this should happen later today, no doubt.
Saw an ad here that I found interesting, especially after visiting the website link.
AD: Great rates on photography. Semi-Professional photographer with "professional results," but NOT professional prices.
If she says she's giving professional results, I'm not sure who she's hired in the past. From her pictures it looks like she's shooting in "Green box" mode.
Insert musician instead of photographer and I hear it all the time. Professional musicians have the same battle. They want to get paid for their quality, but there are plenty of others out there that will do a lesser job for less money. Often, the people asking for freebies can't tell the difference or simply are willing to settle.
Technology went a long way to killing off musician's jobs as well. Look at how many jobs go to fancy one man operations with good keyboard. Now one does the job of many.
Bottom line, industries are fluid. The market will change according to the needs of the customer and access to people willing to fulfill those needs. You can fight it all you want and get mad, but that's the way it is.
Sooooo..... you're a high school/college student, with nothing to do on that night, and you really like to take pictures.
With this you can take your friends out, get some free drinks, meet the band, and if you ask, probably use their music for free on your website. Not to mention most likely get contacts for more of the above...
There's a market for everything, clearly this one is not for a paid photographer. What's wrong about asking anyway?
I'm a fabulously wealthy photographer / artist making money hand over fist. Here's what I need:
A mechanic to overhaul my custom '57 Chevy.
A maid to clean my house on a regular basis
A doctor to perform some minor surgery on me.
A band to perform theme music for me where ever I go.
A carpenter and electrician to build an extra wing on my sweet house in East Austin.
A nanny to watch my spoiled kids.
Of course there will be no pay involved. In return for your services you will get FULL CREDIT on my website, AND you can add all of this work to your PORTFOLIO! If you ask me, this is an absolutely awesome deal!
Everyone's gotta start somewhere. A lot of small local bands earn absolute crap for sets, if they make anything at all. I initially worked out deals where I would shoot some small bands who opened up for national acts and made my way in that way. Worked out great for me, allowed me to network in with some publicists and managers. The little local bands got a few photos, I got a front-row seat to a national act, beefed up my portfolio, now some of the guys I listened to growing up are people I work with.
And, sure enough, one of my local bands I worked with 'made it', and I'm salary with them now.
You never know where things will take you. Don't get wrapped up in money, you miss out on too much fun.
Realmstalker wrote:
I initially worked out deals where I would shoot some small bands who opened up for national acts and made my way in that way.
Did you offer that arrangement to them, or did they poll the market of photographers with that offer until they found someone who accepted? That makes a difference, to my mind. One is analogous to a new shop saying, "Grand opening, huge discounts for a limited time!" and one is analogous to walking into every store on Main St. saying, "I want this pile of goods from your shop and I'm willing to compensate you with pocket lint and potential future good will!" until you find a taker.
Don't get wrapped up in money, you miss out on too much fun.
Spoken like someone whose bills were already paid from something else or by someone else. It's harder to hold that mentality when it's your livelihood being discussed.
I've done it a few different ways on that note. I've tried marketing myself to the band, shooting the show and trying to make a sale afterwards ("Hi my names Tim, you guys rock, I took some pics, yadda yadda, if you would like to buy them we can discuss price" or something similar), and I've been approached by some bands willing to work out something for CD artwork. There's no one way to go about it. Some bands have a budget for imagry, and some bands dont.
Was it the only thing I did? God no. I'm young and not that business-smart, I dont have a cash roll in the bank and lived paycheck to paycheck for a while. I didn't take business or marketing classes in college (which I'm looking at doing now, now that I'm somewhat smarter). I worked a dayjob so I could get a foothold. I live in Raleigh, there's not a lot of local events out here, I usually end up travelling to Atlanta, DC, NYC, Richmond or Charlotte to shoot. I don't expect anyone thats immediately trying to make a living off of it to do free shoots, but at the same time they cant immediately expect to bag a high-dollar client without a portfolio and connections. It took me over 2 years now of working with locals, wasting gas jetting around to bigger cities, getting screwed over once or twice, to finally be pulling in a decent profit.
The thing is, I love doing it. I love music, possibly more than I love photography, I'd do it anyways.
PS - Simon, I absolutely adore your work. It's gorgeous!
