shoebox9 wrote:
I don't understand why Einsteins aren't on this list?
The Einstein series will replace WL, is due for release shortly (ie Dec/Jan), and PCB claims it will be better than Profoto in almost every way (other than ruggedness, design of mount- though this has been improved, and rental availability). 1/10th stop digital power, not digital controls of analoge power, like current Elinchrom, Profoto, etc. Plus many other features incl: built-in rechargable batteries (at least for the 512w/s version- which is expected to retail around US$500).
I love how you're not only willing to take a product that hasn't even been released and call it serious competition for two of the most ubiquitous and successful professional lighting brands in the world, but you're also apparently doing so based exclusively on the word of the product's manufacturer.
Easy up! This thread has been mainly comparing AB's/WL's with Profoto. I didn't start the thread, or say it was a fair comparison. Of course it's not.
No, the Einsteins haven't been released yet. But a) they are apparently close, and b) unlike various other lighting manufacturers, PCB isn't know for making non-accurate claims about his products.
I don't work for PCB or even own a single PCB product. But if I bought PCB 2 months out from the launch of a claimed totally revolutionary, similarily priced product, I'd be dirty no-one at least mentioned it.
As to whether or not the Einsteins will pose any competition to the two giants, let's wait and see. I bet the market is going to at least get shaken up, meaning we all win in the end.
shoebox9 wrote:
I don't understand why Einsteins aren't on this list?
The Einstein series will replace WL, is due for release shortly (ie Dec/Jan), and PCB claims it will be better than Profoto in almost every way (other than ruggedness, design of mount- though this has been improved, and rental availability). 1/10th stop digital power, not digital controls of analoge power, like current Elinchrom, Profoto, etc. Plus many other features incl: built-in rechargable batteries (at least for the 512w/s version- which is expected to retail around US$500).
Have a look at the threads in the PCB forum for more details.
PS do a seach on the Photoflex 5' octa. I've read of owners hating how difficult they apparently are to setup (ie on location)....Show more →
I appreciate your enthusiasm but have to correct things.I made no claims comparing to any other system. I only stated the features.
To my knowledge (BTW, I joined this forum to gain from all of you- especially the heavy weights here like Carmen, bacilonur, shatterkiss, etc, so please take it easy on me!) the only current strobe that supplies the flash tube with full voltage before instantly cutting off the power part way through the discharge cycle (ie to give the required flash duration = power level), is the Bron Graffiti.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't all other strobes (discounting on-camera stuff) use analogue power control systems in that they vary the voltage supplied to the flash tube? It's variable resisters you are twisting on a Profoto 7B. Some even list voltage accuracy (ie "Voltage Stabilization of "+/- 0.5% = maximum stability for digital imaging" for the FX, RX, & BX, but only "+/- 1v" for the Ranger RX).
The reason "voltage stabilization" is important, is presumably because otherwise either the power steps aren't accurate, or power levels during a burst aren't consistent.
What apparently makes the Graffiti system a cut above the rest is that it doesn't rely on voltage accuracy (which is always ultimately controlled via a combination of wound copper wires and variable resisters- that heat up, etc), but instead uses one voltage and ultra fast switching, creating true on/off digital control, and potentially a much higher degree of accuracy. This is also what PCB claims he's done with the Einstein design.
Cheers.
Edited to add:
PS I just saw Paul's above post (we posted together). Sorry Paul, I must have gotten your posts mixed up with another poster on a different forum. I retract the implication you made the stated comparison.
shoebox9 wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't all other strobes (discounting on-camera stuff) use analogue power control systems in that they vary the voltage supplied to the flash tube? It's variable resisters you are twisting on a Profoto 7B. Some even list voltage accuracy (ie "Voltage Stabilization of "+/- 0.5% = maximum stability for digital imaging" for the FX, RX, & BX, but only "+/- 1v" for the Ranger RX).
The reason "voltage stabilization" is important, is presumably because otherwise either the power steps aren't accurate, or power levels during a burst aren't consistent.
What apparently makes the Graffiti system a cut above the rest is that it doesn't rely on voltage accuracy (which is always ultimately controlled via a combination of wound copper wires and variable resisters- that heat up, etc), but instead uses one voltage and ultra fast switching, creating true on/off digital control, and potentially a much higher degree of accuracy. This is also what PCB claims he's done with the Einstein design. ...Show more →
I'm not an EE but I believe that's basically the gist of what's going on. But personally, I'm already pretty happy with how my gear handles those three things: shot-to-shot consistency, power level changes (albeit fully analog), and flash duration. There've been a number of tests on here showing that a Profoto Acute2 gets around 95% consistency while an AB800 got around 89 or 90% IIRC. What I care a whole lot more about than consistency is recycle speed, since that'll easily kill your consistency (even digital! ) if some of your strobes can't keep up and are getting popped off at half recycle.
If I was getting started shooting studio and outdoor stuff knowing what I know now, I'd get almost exactly what the OP is getting, with the exception of maybe one X3200 instead of an X1600, and a Vagabond II. Shooting outdoors has so many random variables, like light bouncing off of your knee and ruining your perfect ratios, that the difference between even a strobe and a speedlite into an umbrella can be hard to tell other than power output. And while it's a nice thing to have, I'd prefer a rock-solid, proven system. The WLs can still be controlled from the CC, and resale value is good enough to not have to worry about upgrading once Einsteins come out.
Sorry if we sounded harsh. The best recommendation I think any of us can give is just to get whatever lights you think will suit you and then get out shooting. Theories are fine, but there's nothing like real experience. Oh, and it's Grafit.
shoebox9 wrote:
I joined this forum to gain from all of you- especially the heavy weights here like Carmen, ........... so please take it easy on me!)
Fair enough, I'll leave the fine points to the engineers. But let me leave you this:
Garbage in, garbage out.
Don't believe everything you hear, especially from the likes of Carmen.
Test everything.
And last but not least, go easy on the Kool Aid. It's got a nasty kick.
Good luck
BTW, there is much more to what makes Grafit a cut above the rest than just voltage accuracy.
Don't forget Speedring's if you are buying PCB light's with Photoflex Softboxes.
May be obvious, but just a heads up...
-Mario
jscoby05 wrote:
Well I think this is what I will be getting
2ea WL800
2ea WL1600
Paul C. Buff Triggers
Paul Buff 4 piece grid set
Paul Buff Mainframe and 6 piece gel set
Paul Buff 22" Beauty Dish w/ sock
Bogen/Manfrotto Stands
5ft. Photoflex Octidome w/ grid
2ea Photoflex Half Dome Strip Boxes w/ grids
2ea Photoflex White umbrellas
2ea Photoflex Silver umbrellas
Is there anything else that I should need, I will be getting a couple of vagabonds later on. I will also get continuous rolls of white and black paper from my local camera shop.
I will second the motion here. I have the hensels with built in receiver. The set I have comes with the transmitter. The nice thing is you can adjust the light power directly from your camera with the transmitter attached to the hot shoe.
shoebox9 wrote:
To my knowledge (BTW, I joined this forum to gain from all of you- especially the heavy weights here like Carmen, bacilonur, shatterkiss, etc, so please take it easy on me!) the only current strobe that supplies the flash tube with full voltage before instantly cutting off the power part way through the discharge cycle (ie to give the required flash duration = power level), is the Bron Graffiti.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't all other strobes (discounting on-camera stuff) use analogue power control systems in that they vary the voltage supplied to the flash tube? It's variable resisters you are twisting on a Profoto 7B. Some even list voltage accuracy (ie "Voltage Stabilization of "+/- 0.5% = maximum stability for digital imaging" for the FX, RX, & BX, but only "+/- 1v" for the Ranger RX).
The reason "voltage stabilization" is important, is presumably because otherwise either the power steps aren't accurate, or power levels during a burst aren't consistent.
What apparently makes the Graffiti system a cut above the rest is that it doesn't rely on voltage accuracy (which is always ultimately controlled via a combination of wound copper wires and variable resisters- that heat up, etc), but instead uses one voltage and ultra fast switching, creating true on/off digital control, and potentially a much higher degree of accuracy. This is also what PCB claims he's done with the Einstein design.
Cheers.
Edited to add:
PS I just saw Paul's above post (we posted together). Sorry Paul, I must have gotten your posts mixed up with another poster on a different forum. I retract the implication you made the stated comparison....Show more →
This is correct. Except it's not about resistors, it's about voltage variable flashpower, which intrinsically varies color at a rate of about 80°k per f stop, whether the voltage is varied by analog or digital means.
Carmen Miranda wrote:
Fair enough, I'll leave the fine points to the engineers. But let me leave you this:
Garbage in, garbage out.
Don't believe everything you hear, especially from the likes of Carmen.
Test everything.
And last but not least, go easy on the Kool Aid. It's got a nasty kick.
Good luck
BTW, there is much more to what makes Grafit a cut above the rest than just voltage accuracy.
I've read through every thread here on SB's, Octas, and Elinchrom (I want to expand my kit, but not buy twice), that the search engine will pull up (last 12m?) and some of your posts Carmen, have been truely exceptional.
I would like to add something to this post even though it is not relevant to the immediate brands. I have Multiblitz profoto units that are currently around 25 years old. They cost around the same as current high end units. I had a shoot last week where I set them up. Used a light meter to get the reading. I made a test shot to confirm.
The lights were left on for a few hours while I was doing the shoot. From shot 1 through 300 there was no change in exposure and no change in colour from one shot to the next.
Consistency, this is the reason I like to stick with high end name brands.
shoebox9 wrote:
... the only current strobe that supplies the flash tube with full voltage before instantly cutting off the power part way through the discharge cycle (ie to give the required flash duration = power level), is the Bron Graffiti.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't all other strobes (discounting on-camera stuff) use analogue power control systems in that they vary the voltage supplied to the flash tube? It's variable resisters you are twisting on a Profoto 7B. ...
You are wrong, but don't take it personally. Besides Grafit, the Profoto D and Pro-8a use power ICs to deliver energy in any increment, as may other high-end brands (like Briese). In an earlier post, Paul Buff mentioned the enabling technology as IGBT. Even traditional generators should be quite color-consistent with designs that switch a bank of capacitors: just refrain from spinning the dial (changing resistance).
Try changing capacitors in 1/10f increments. Perhaps 98% of the flash units sold employ variable voltage in some form, and all that do follow the same physics of color temperature vs flash duration. Recent IGBT technology is what enables the very high end systems to control output, color and flash duration. But you pay dearly for the privilege.
if some of your strobes can't keep up and are getting popped off at half recycle.
I don't know the specs on different brands, so this is not directed toward any specific unit. But the better units **will not** pop (or give you a ready beep) until they are at least 99% charged.
When digital arrived, one of the key things driving the upgrade in lighting for most pros was inconsistent exposure and inconsistent color.
Most of the manufacturers at the time were pretty sloppy. Most did not see it as clearly when shooting film. There were some exceptions among manufacturers, of course.
But it was pretty easy to see exposure variation or a "yellow" hair light on digital. Drove us nuts!!
Most manufacturers have been getting better since 2002 or so.
A 7b2 w/ head for $4700! That's actually tempting.....Man my business credit card is just gonna skyrocket with this, the 5d2 and 24L mark II.
I have to say I'm looking forward to seeing how the Einstein fair. While the WL line definitely has limitations, I've made some amazing shots with them. I really need a good system to use as a portable unit, and even with D cell batteries in the upcoming Einstein, it's very hard to use monolights on location when you're running and gunning. Also, Paul states the Einstein will have better White Balance control, which will be a big plus. I don't care how 'beefed up' the light mod attachment is, it still sucks for heavy set use.
blob loblaw wrote:
WAR!
Free head with purchase of Pro-B2
That's one of the things I like about WL's for wedding work. It's better to catch a moment even if the light doesn't pop all the way than it is to completely miss it because it's recharging from the last shot. Although the 7b2 will recharge at 1200 w/s @ 1.8 seconds, so normal indoor use will recharge quite quickly.
mmurph wrote:
I don't know the specs on different brands, so this is not directed toward any specific unit. But the better units **will not** pop (or give you a ready beep) until they are at least 99% charged.
cineski wrote:
That's one of the things I like about WL's for wedding work. It's better to catch a moment even if the light doesn't pop all the way than it is to completely miss it because it's recharging from the last shot.
Well, I did my last wedding in 1990, so ...
Philosophies differ I guess. I shoot 1200+ photos in the studio in 6-7 hours and never miss or wait for a shot. A 3200 ws pack run 4 stops down recharges in about .3 seconds or less. Twice as fast on 220 volt if you need it. Or "ping pong" multiple packs and *never* wait.
Same on location. 1 head on 1 pack, power down 2-4 stops for speed.
I DO NOT want crap that pops at 50%. No way, never, ever. That is just purely bad engineering. That is why I got rid of Speedotron years ago.
When a pack is triggered, your camera's gonna take the shot whether or not the lights fire. You're still going to have to wait for the other packs that did fire, so you've basically got a "free" shot that may end up being the best as far as the subject is concerned. So having a shot that needs a little work to match the exposure of the other ones is IMO better than not getting a flash at all.
mmurph wrote:
Well, I did my last wedding in 1990, so ...
Philosophies differ I guess. I shoot 1200+ photos in the studio in 6-7 hours and never miss or wait for a shot. A 3200 ws pack run 4 stops down recharges in about .3 seconds or less. Twice as fast on 220 volt if you need it. Or "ping pong" multiple packs and *never* wait.
Same on location. 1 head on 1 pack, power down 2-4 stops for speed.
I DO NOT want crap that pops at 50%. No way, never, ever. That is just purely bad engineering. That is why I got rid of Speedotron years ago.
) if some of your strobes can't keep up and are getting popped off at half recycle.
The best recommendation I think any of us can give is just to get whatever lights you think will suit you and then get out shooting. Theories are fine, but there's nothing like real experience. Oh, and it's Grafit. 
, the 3200 ws pack 