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Archive 2008 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread

  
 
Mark Bishop
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p.98 #1 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread


Alistair Watson wrote:
I too believe the 5D Mark 2 will be a success, however I was one of those waiting for a body such as this with AF closer to that of the 1D series, or even the AF of the 1 series, a la Nikon D700. It would have made a perfect compliment and 2nd/backup/studio body to my 1D3. Oh well. Here is to hoping the 1D Mark 3 replacement, hopefully at PMA, will provide a higher resolution sensor, 12-14MP, as it should have had in the first place if you ask me.


As i said earlier in the thread, my 40D outfocuses my Eos 3 that I still use regularly, so just going on spec sheets and numbers doesnt tell the whole story.
The only place where the film camera (45 point focus remember) is more accurate, in my opinion, is tracking smaller onjects, particularly birds. Here, it seems more forgiving of focus point placement, holding lock on the object, where the 40D has a habit of reaquiring on the background very quickly if you stray a little with the focus point.(and obviously f8 focusing)

My point?
Specs dont always tell the whole story, the images and report of the table tennis tournament shot with a 5DII suggests focus tracking is improved over the original camera, how much is obviously subjective, so the only answer is to wait for production spec cameras to be tested and reviewed.

For PMA I also expect a 1D IV , and I suspect 16MP, full frame, with HD video.

The AF for this next 1D is tricky, the current one has a somewhat tainted reputation, although current production cameras seem to be fine, but replacing it and launching again with a 'new advanced af' could cause just as many issues, with people not purchasing after being caught out last time as an early adopter.

They are between a rock and a hard place in that particular situation, it will be interesting how they approach it.





Sep 26, 2008 at 04:18 AM
ulrikft
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p.98 #2 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread


All the sarcastic know-it-alls ranting about how we youngsters do not know about the amazing years of manual focus... well, you make me laugh. You act all high and mighty, but if you read the books of people like Galen Rowell or other of his era, you will notice a quite distinct "we thought af was a gimmic, BUT IT ROCKS!!". There is nothing wrong with wanting improvement, there is nothing wrong about making critical, BUT constructive remarks. Blind faith in canon leads nowhere, religiously defending canon's choises at every turn, again: leads nowhere. And the ever present "you can just change".. NO we can't JUST change, that is a 4000-5000 USD decision, you can't just CHANGE and scrap investments in lenses, accessories and whatnot.

Could those that just can't BEAR to read critical posts hide me, and others that make slightly critical remarks about the 5d mkII? And stop having their holy "let us defend Jerusacanon"-crusade?

thank you



Sep 26, 2008 at 04:45 AM
M Vers
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p.98 #3 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread


bobbytan wrote:
So what you are saying essentially is that the 5D II is doomed to fail as "the vast majority" will not accept an AF system that is supposedly only slightly better than the 5D. We will find out in about 3 months time. We will know then if the 5D II is a major marketing disaster for Canon.

I personally think the 5D II will be an astonishing success story .... much like the 5D was, the garbage AF notwithstanding.



Once again, putting word in my mouth. What I said was ONe AF point wouldn't cut it for the vast majority. As for "garbage AF", (which I never said as well) to clarify for you, the usage of the same AF system after all of this time has passed is garbage--the 5dDs AF is not. Lets at least make an attempt to understand what one is saying prior to making comments.



Sep 26, 2008 at 05:18 AM
M Vers
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p.98 #4 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread


Mel Gross wrote:
Again it all comes down to what the camera is indended for.

Are you telling us that Canon has no right to market its cameras the way it sees fit?

No one camera is ideal for everything. Like a lot of others here, I'm pretty satisfied with the auto focus on my 5D, any improvement over that is great. Sometimes subtle improvements in the technical sense can make a big improvement in the quality of the final result.

You seem to think that every camera must be able to shoot raceway work. It doesn't.

I shot football games many years ago with myF1.
...Show more

Obviously you're missing the point entirely. I'll break it down for you once more. It's been 3 years and Canon is using the same 2005 AF system in a 2008 body, what doesn't sound right about that sentence? Do you honestly believe Canon did not upgrade the AF because they felt it was good enough?



Sep 26, 2008 at 05:26 AM
M Vers
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p.98 #5 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread


ulrikft wrote:
All the sarcastic know-it-alls ranting about how we youngsters do not know about the amazing years of manual focus... well, you make me laugh. You act all high and mighty, but if you read the books of people like Galen Rowell or other of his era, you will notice a quite distinct "we thought af was a gimmic, BUT IT ROCKS!!". There is nothing wrong with wanting improvement, there is nothing wrong about making critical, BUT constructive remarks. Blind faith in canon leads nowhere, religiously defending canon's choises at every turn, again: leads nowhere. And the ever present "you can
...Show more

x2.



Sep 26, 2008 at 05:29 AM
dvarnav
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p.98 #6 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread


M Vers wrote:
Obviously you're missing the point entirely. I'll break it down for you once more. It's been 3 years and Canon is using the same 2005 AF system in a 2008 body, what doesn't sound right about that sentence? Do you honestly believe Canon did not upgrade the AF because they felt it was good enough?


Well yes this is true if a camera (at 3.9fps) has the right and the suitable autofocous system I really dont find any obvious reason except from Marketing to develop an new AF system for 5DII. BTW they have developed a new one for the 50D.



Sep 26, 2008 at 05:48 AM
Pixel Perfect
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p.98 #7 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread


Mark Bishop wrote:
As i said earlier in the thread, my 40D outfocuses my Eos 3 that I still use regularly, so just going on spec sheets and numbers doesnt tell the whole story.
The only place where the film camera (45 point focus remember) is more accurate, in my opinion, is tracking smaller onjects, particularly birds. Here, it seems more forgiving of focus point placement, holding lock on the object, where the 40D has a habit of reaquiring on the background very quickly if you stray a little with the focus point.(and obviously f8 focusing)



I not surprised a 2008 40D outperforms a 1998 EOS 3. It's like comparing a 1998 Porsche to a 2008 LS6 Vette - 10 years is a heck of a long time in the technology ladder. What you should be comparing the 40D to is the 1D III (working version) to see how far the 45pt system has come.



Sep 26, 2008 at 05:54 AM
Ron Hew
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p.98 #8 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread


Whayne, I reckon it is quite far......


Sep 26, 2008 at 06:28 AM
michael49
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p.98 #9 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread


garyvot wrote:
The one major disappointment for me about the Mark II is that (according to Robg) it appears to retain the longish shutter lag / mirror blackout time of the 5D, a camera which feels very sluggish (to me)...


I'm so sorry to hear this. I was so hoping that this had been "updated".



Sep 26, 2008 at 07:09 AM
michael49
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p.98 #10 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread


simonella_viru wrote:
..it will be a success, even with the mediocre AF system. there's a significant enough market that likes the 5d II feature set. however, adding a better AF to the 5d II would not have hurt anyone. ti would make happy the segment that feels neglected- the ones that wanted a "d700". that way, everyone would have been happy and the camera would sell even better


Exactly. What Canon did not do this I just don't understand.



Sep 26, 2008 at 07:11 AM
Mel Gross
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p.98 #11 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread


Pixel Perfect wrote:
Look the 5D AF is fine for anything but fast action and in normal everyday use especially one shot it's quite good and does very well in low light IMO. Majority won't have issues with the 5D II AF.


Yea! Truth!



Sep 26, 2008 at 07:20 AM
Mel Gross
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p.98 #12 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread


ulrikft wrote:
All the sarcastic know-it-alls ranting about how we youngsters do not know about the amazing years of manual focus... well, you make me laugh. You act all high and mighty, but if you read the books of people like Galen Rowell or other of his era, you will notice a quite distinct "we thought af was a gimmic, BUT IT ROCKS!!". There is nothing wrong with wanting improvement, there is nothing wrong about making critical, BUT constructive remarks. Blind faith in canon leads nowhere, religiously defending canon's choises at every turn, again: leads nowhere. And the ever present "you can
...Show more

Oh, no one is saying auto focus is bad to have. I like it on my 5D, and on my now older EOS 3.

That's not the point some of us are trying to make to those who think the auto focus of the 5D and 5D mkII are bad.

They are saying that without great auto focus (according to what THEY think is great), they can't take great, or even good shots (without knowing that that's what they are saying).

We're just pointing out that great shots were taken before auto focus was invented.

I remember when we shot fashion without motor drives in 1970. When they became popular, we didn't get more good shots, we simply shot more.

We have to be careful when we assume that some new technologies are going to make us better at what we do. Sometimes, it makes us worse, because instead of depending on our own talents, we depend upon the machine's talents. Then we lose those talents, and when the machine breaks down, or doesn't work as well as we want it to, we can't do what we have to.

This all revolves about the concept of the auto focus of the 5D/mkII vs the 1D mkIII. One is a big, heavy, expensive, sports monster, and the other is a medium size, medium weight, medium price, camera, designed for more contemplative photography.

Different strokes for different folks. We shouldn't be trying to squeeze the 1DmkIII into the 5D mkII body.



Sep 26, 2008 at 07:35 AM
michael49
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p.98 #13 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread


All I know is that if the 5DII's AF isn't at least as good as my 40D, then that's just pathetic.


Sep 26, 2008 at 07:38 AM
Mel Gross
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p.98 #14 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread


M Vers wrote:
Obviously you're missing the point entirely. I'll break it down for you once more. It's been 3 years and Canon is using the same 2005 AF system in a 2008 body, what doesn't sound right about that sentence? Do you honestly believe Canon did not upgrade the AF because they felt it was good enough?


I'm not missing the point at all. I understand the argument very well. I just disagree with what you're saying.

You may not like it, but Canon has an idea of who buys this model. The auto focus is fine for those of us who bought it with that idea in mind, as most people who have posted here who actually HAVE the camera agree. Canon has made improvements. They're not large, but maybe they can make a fair difference to what IS a good auto focus already.

I don't believe in change for changes sake. If something works well, it doesn't need to be scrapped. Small improvements may be better, and safer. Look at the auto focus in the 1D mkIII as an example. The mkII worked well. The only purpose to the changes to the one in the mkII was to speed it up further. Look what happened.

For the very people who may have wanted a faster auto focus, the camera became almost unusable. The people who didn't need it, didn't notice, or have a problem. It's costing Canon dearly.

We have no idea what Canon was thinking. No one here can pretend that.

For all we know, the 5D mkII may have had an auto focus system based upon the one in the 1D mkII, but it was scrapped early this year because of all the problems the iD mkIII had.

We don't know.

I'm not going to complain if the 5D mkII doesn't auto focus as well as a (hopefully finally fixed) 1D mkIII when a sprinter is rushing towards me. Anyone who bought the camera for that, made a big mistake.



Sep 26, 2008 at 07:52 AM
Mel Gross
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p.98 #15 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread


michael49 wrote:
All I know is that if the 5DII's AF isn't at least as good as my 40D, then that's just pathetic.


I can tell you that it's better. My 5D auto focus is definitely better than my daughter's 40D.

And according to Canon, the auto focus of the 5D mkII is better than the one in the old 5D.

Rob Galbraith, who first broke the news in a big way about the problems with the 1D mkIII, and who has been forcing Canon's hand on it, says that's it's good the 5D mkII's auto focus is NOT based upon that of the 50D, supposedly better than the one in its older sibling, the 40D.



Sep 26, 2008 at 08:00 AM
parintele
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p.98 #16 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread


They are saying that without great auto focus (according to what THEY think is great), they can't take great, or even good shots (without knowing that that's what they are saying).

not true.. great pictures can be produced with ANY camera more or less...at this point of technollogy noone can say is about the camera...camera's are good enough to allow you to take THE picture one way or another,,,

the issue is about how much comfort the camera is providing you, how much it helps you, how much trust it offers ....how much u need to sweat for a certain picture ...

5D AF is good...the problem is it COUL have been better in new generation and more, it would have been NORMAL to be better and better...

is not even about precision of AF, which was fine in the old 5D...

is about where those poor 9 points were spreaded...they put a 20D AF little tuned in a 5D...now they tuned a little more and put it again in a new 5D2..that is the issue...
in a APS-C frame those close to each other 9 points were fine, in a FF like 5D camera the same points become almost useless , 1, 5 or 9 is the same thing with single center point...
u need to recompose a lot, which is not best thing to do most of the times, u need to crop a lot when shooting even simple shots of a kid playing when use servo....because the subject need to ne in the center of the frame

so number of points MIGHT be acceptable compromise, their position and functionality is ZERO from many perspectives...

nobody really expected 45 points...many of us expected a more FUNCTIONAL AF system, no matter how many points it have...



the second thing is about speed...a 5D user, which is a pro or a semi-pro, so a person who knows the limits of the camera, will not expect to shoot football or birds in flight sequences like it would with a 1D camera with it's 7-8 or 10 FPS...that is not the complain , really...
is all about the mirror mechanism and its speed...

the camera is SLOW just because the mirror mechanism is slow...and is so because is cheaper to be so not only because canon wanted to differentiate the camera's specification in terms of speed...
they used a slower mechanism because is cheaper...

unfortunatelly that translates in shutter lag everytime u push the shutter, including single shot...

again, u loose lots of frames from a fraction of a second sweet smile of the bright to a kid's facial expression or a blow of the wind in the hair of your model...

these LACKS in 5D camera are related to AF and speed of the camera...they are real...

nobody expected a 1Ds at a quarter of the price in a 5D2 body, really, we are not that "high"....

just SOME steps forward in order to solve those weaknesser of otherways a great camera..

5D could have been great, it is not...4 FPS mean something, AF position of the pointsm their number mean something...mo matter how many tests you will do after u will get the camera, u can't discover in fact the points could spread or the speed can be enhanced, pure and simple...


so is abouit how a camera do not help u more than it does to produce the same pictures, good or bad ones,






Sep 26, 2008 at 08:02 AM
Etadam
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p.98 #17 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread


Long time I didn't venture in this thread.

Did anybody find the 5d2 manual on the net?



Sep 26, 2008 at 08:04 AM
PetKal
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p.98 #18 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread


Canon USA may be right in saying that the old 5D AF system tracks action better than 40/50D owing to those 6 auxilliary AF points (Servo AF). Then again, their "interpretative" communications do not always sound convincing, it would be more useful if that sort of info came written down somewhere by Canon Japan.

Be that as it may, considering the 5DII purpose, I'd rather see an improvement in peripheral AF point dependability. Focus with centre AF point and recompose is not the best method at large lens apertures.



Sep 26, 2008 at 08:05 AM
Mel Gross
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p.98 #19 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread


parintele wrote:
not true.. great pictures can be produced with ANY camera more or less...at this point of technollogy noone can say is about the camera...camera's are good enough to allow you to take THE picture one way or another,,,

the issue is about how much comfort the camera is providing you, how much it helps you, how much trust it offers ....how much u need to sweat for a certain picture ...

5D AF is good...the problem is it COUL have been better in new generation and more, it would have been NORMAL to be better and better...

is not even about precision of
...Show more

I like the way the points are situated. The way I shoot, and the way others shoot, apparently, from the almost all positive comments from what other 5D owners attest to, the points are in the right place. I almost never use servo. For me, it's a waste.

Most all of what I focus on is nearer to the center, and I suspect that's true for most other 5D owners. It would have been easy for Canon to move them. They must have had a reason not to. It wouldn't have cost much to do. This camera was (is) a VERY popular model. That's the main reason why it's been in the line-up for three years. If the auto focus wasn't up to snuff, that would have been big news. But it hasn't been, because the auto focus is just fine. Now, they've improved it.

If you want the auto focus from the 1D, or 1Ds, then buy one. This camera has done very well with what it has.


the second thing is about speed...a 5D user, which is a pro or a semi-pro, so a person who knows the limits of the camera, will not expect to shoot football or birds in flight sequences like it would with a 1D camera with it's 7-8 or 10 FPS...that is not the complain , really...
is all about the mirror mechanism and its speed...

the camera is SLOW just because the mirror mechanism is slow...and is so because is cheaper to be so not only because canon wanted to differentiate the camera's specification in terms of speed...
they used a slower mechanism because
...Show more

You don't have the 5D, do you? Because you write the way someone who doesn't have the camera, writes. I'm finding a lot of that here.

I do nature photography, and I know people who shoot portraits, and yes, even kids, for a living, using this camera. I haven't had, or heard any complaints about, this lag as being much of a practical problem.

Does that mean that it wouldn't be nice if it were improved. Sure. Of course.

I'm happier that the shutter life went from 100,000 shots to 150,000 shots.



Sep 26, 2008 at 08:17 AM
Daan B
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p.98 #20 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread


Is this thread still going on about the 5D2's AF? Amazing...


Sep 26, 2008 at 08:20 AM
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