fredmiranda.com
Login

Moderated by: Fred Miranda
  New fredmiranda.com Mobile Site
  New Feature: SMS Notification alert
  New Feature: Buy & Sell Watchlist
  

FM Forums | Canon Forum | Join Upload & Sell

1       2       3              116              118              263       264       end
  

Archive 2008 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread

  
 
Pixel Perfect
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.117 #1 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread


Mel Gross wrote:
Where did you see that? Noise is at the pixel level. If a pixel contains noise so will the entire image, where that pixel is. A noisy image is just a lot of noisy pixels. How can per-pixel noise be greater than the noise as a who;e?

Unless you mean that under certain circumstances, noise is greater in some areas of the image than others, which is what happens.

Yes, prints of the same size will favor the mkII. So will prints at the same resolution, because noise is lower, when the same ISO and shooting conditions are met.


So if I make a print from the 5D at 300dpi and make a print from the 5D II @ 300dpi and it'll be 28% larger in each dimension, then it should look equally noisey? But if I make the same size print the 5D II print will look cleaner?



Oct 08, 2008 at 09:19 PM
Mel Gross
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.117 #2 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread


Pixel Perfect wrote:
So if I make a print from the 5D at 300dpi and make a print from the 5D II @ 300dpi and it'll be 28% larger in each dimension, then it should look equally noisey? But if I make the same size print the 5D II print will look cleaner?


That's the idea. Of course, it's not that simple entirely. You would have to view the prints at the same distance. Two prints, one much larger because of more pixels, would look equally noisy if viewed at the same distance as the smaller print. Less noisy, if viewed from further away.

But, it's an approximation, because the noise would look different.



Oct 08, 2008 at 11:22 PM
philtax
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.117 #3 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread


Hi guys,

Thanks for responding to my question. I guess I don't really know what "per pixel noise" is, but here is an example of the comments I'm referring to:

"A 100% crop of a 21 megapixel file is a much higher level of scrutiny. The per pixel noise in a 21 megapixel file doesn't need to be as good as the noise in a 12 megapixel file in order for the 21 megapixel file to equal or surpass the lesser file's noise footprint."

This is why I'm puzzled by the "resolution" thing. I guess what I'm wondering is whether the quality of the 21 mp file is proportionally better than the 12mp file. That is, if we could graph image quality, would a given percentage increase in megapixels result in a similar percentage increase in quality or is there a falloff because of the smaller pixel size?

Thanks,

Phil



Oct 09, 2008 at 12:53 AM
Mel Gross
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.117 #4 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread


philtax wrote:
Hi guys,

Thanks for responding to my question. I guess I don't really know what "per pixel noise" is, but here is an example of the comments I'm referring to:

"A 100% crop of a 21 megapixel file is a much higher level of scrutiny. The per pixel noise in a 21 megapixel file doesn't need to be as good as the noise in a 12 megapixel file in order for the 21 megapixel file to equal or surpass the lesser file's noise footprint."

This is why I'm puzzled by the "resolution" thing. I guess what I'm wondering is whether the quality of
...Show more

If you take the linear difference in the file, that will be the difference in sharpness. The increase isn't as much as you would think.

For example, in order to have a 100% increase in sharpness, you would have to have a linear difference of 100%.

1,000 pixels to 2,000 pixels.

But this means the file size will increase by 400% - 1,000 x 1,500 to 2,000 x 3,000.

So, going from 12 mp files to 21 mp files doesn't result in almost a 100% increase in resolution. It results in a 32% increase in resolution.

4256 x 2832 vs 5616 x 3744

How does this relate to noise?

Well, when the pixel is smaller on the print, its less obtrusive. In the same size print, or in two prints at different distances, so that they appear to be the same size, the higher rez image will appear less noisy.

If the prints are too far away to resolve the pixels, they will appear to be about the same.



Oct 09, 2008 at 01:21 AM
photogenix
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.117 #5 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread


Well I've just come back from the 5D Mk II launch in Melbourne, Australia (at Michael's Camera and Video on Elizabeth St) and there were some Canon reps there. They had the only two bodies (cameras, not reps!) which are in Australia at the moment (and one is staying there until the end of the month). Note that, of course, they were pre-production models.

They haven't had the camera for long so some information was scant and some actually possibly incorrect. For example, the presentation said "21.1 Megapixels. What does this mean?" and the first dot point said "More colours" (WTF?). I guess details will be refined as they come out of the wash.

Comments and observations :
* The back LCD (on manual brightness) has plenty of brightness headroom. The gig started at 7pm so daylight wasn't an option but the auto brightness is a nice touch.
* The top LCD has more info and is slightly (nicely) wider, and the illumination button has joined its 3 brothers rather than on the side. I guess they had to do that to fit a bigger top LCD. The backlight doesn't seem as bright (shouldn't be an issue, maybe even an advantage) and the readout is a little finer, more delicate, I think I prefer the bolder numbers on the Mark I for my eyesight.
* The power switch is stiffer, narrower, and generally more tactile
* They didn't have a grip so I can't comment on that. I wish they did. I didn't realise how much I liked my 10D's grip until I got one for my 5D. I really dislike the latter, my finger joints don't match its folds and it's the Volvo of grips (ie: boxy).
* I saw some HDMI output on a 40" Sony XBR LCD (I own a 46" and so I'm familiar with the device), including output while it was in LiveView mode (not a serious demonstration but it popped up for a tick).
* Video specs still say 30p but the desire for 25p (especially where artificial light sources use 50Hz power) has been noted. Having said that, sample video taken there under half-lit domestic halogen lights showed no noticeable flicker on playback. How it would handle fluorescents (which can change their colour through an AC power cycle) is at this point anyone's guess.
* Minimum spec for video is a Class 4 UDMA card. Personally I reckon if you're gonna get this baby, you'd treat yourself to a nice sized UDMA card anyway (and the CF interface seems to make good use of it, buffer clears heaps faster and therefore gives much longer bursts)
* USB2 speed, for those who use it, is supposed to be 50% faster than the Mark I. In my opinion, I'll still prefer a $10 card reader, thanks.
* Noise reduction is claimed to be 30% better than the Mark I. Not sure what method was used to quantify that. Normally I prefer to deal with noise as both chroma and luma separately, but chroma noise characteristics on both Mark 5's seem pretty well tamed to begin with.
* The break in video when a still is taken, often quoted as 1 second, is in fact 0.44 seconds. I guess this feature will polarise a few people (personally I'd rather it didn't interrupt video).
* No official news on more IS lenses, which will be a must for those keen to try video without shake. I'm thinking of buying some Manfrotto shares
* AU pricing will not be announced until ~ Novemeber 1st and first shipment they are still saying will be late November (hopefully in time for my new baby!). No October 18 dates or similar here. Seems they are waiting for currency fluctuations to settle a bit more. "Indicative pricing" is vaguely pitched at the AU$4299 mark but it sounds like they are far from comitting to a price with current volatilities. It did sound more certain however that only one shipment will occur in 2008, matching what many US (etc) dealers are saying.
* Apparently it is not quite the same AF module as the 5D Mk I. Apparently not just the centre AF point is cross-type, but also the one above and the one below it? This is not what I've read elsewhere, so who knows. Also apparently the AF module has something to detect the direction of light to assist with contrast AF. Both these changes sound a bit funny to me, so don't expect many AF changes until it starts to flow through more official channels.
* It is anticipated that eventually 3rd party batteries will come out on the market, but to have the extra functionality from the embedded chip in them (for battery condition, serial number etc), it is expected that will be in the Canon-only domain.
* The presentation said that ISO 50 is available for the least possible noise. This is interesting because, as I understand it, with the Mark I, the ISO 50 is actually a software kludge that actually reduced dynamic range as a side-effect and I have read that its most optimal ISO is 200 (perhaps 125 but not 100). So not sure if this is uninformed marketing spin at this point.

Yes, I got to hold one, and with a 200f2 lens which to be honest left me with a bigger impression, but that is no reflection on the body!



Oct 09, 2008 at 06:54 AM
Dawei Ye
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.117 #6 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread


^Hey! I went too!

5D2 and 200 f/2 (GOD I WANT BOTH)

http://dawei.zenfolio.com/img/v4/p417579504-3.jpg


I recall ISO 1600 images were ultra smooth, no noise at all visible from the LCD preview, but this is inconclusive for obvious reasons. I did see some blotchiness though so maybe the software NR is quite strong

ISO 25600 was damn noisy, not unlike a 400D pushed to ISO 6400 in DPP. It was damn noisy and banding too, but there was a LOT of detail in the 25600 shots though. I was quite surprised.



Oct 09, 2008 at 08:22 AM
photogenix
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.117 #7 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread


^^ Yes, I think you put that combo over my neck when you finished with it. I was wearing an olive green t-shirt with a "The Goodies" logo on the front. Pleased to meet you


Oct 09, 2008 at 08:26 AM
Dawei Ye
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.117 #8 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread


Oh yeah that's right! Yeah..me and that other asian guy went crazy for ages over all the gear. It was a gearhead's paradise


Oct 09, 2008 at 08:34 AM
RDKirk
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.117 #9 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread


Well, when the pixel is smaller on the print, its less obtrusive. In the same size print, or in two prints at different distances, so that they appear to be the same size, the higher rez image will appear less noisy.

If the prints are too far away to resolve the pixels, they will appear to be about the same.


Which has been a long, roundabout way of saying that a higher resolving sensor will have less apparent noise--all other things being equal--just like a higher resolving film had less apparent grain.



Oct 09, 2008 at 11:48 AM
Don Clary
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.117 #10 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread


Thank you, Photogenix, for your report.

Apparently it is not quite the same AF module as the 5D Mk I. Apparently not just the centre AF point is cross-type, but also the one above and the one below it? This is not what I've read elsewhere, so who knows.

It seems to be the same AF module. Page 8 of the Canon 5D white paper shows the two additional invisible f2.8 sensitive cross sensors that are only active during AI Servo.



Oct 09, 2008 at 12:24 PM
mscottlogan
Offline

Upload & Sell: Off
p.117 #11 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread


does anyone know, if the old 5D battery grip will work on the Mark II or will it be a new battery with a new grip?


Oct 09, 2008 at 12:27 PM
Mel Gross
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.117 #12 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread


RDKirk wrote:
Which has been a long, roundabout way of saying that a higher resolving sensor will have less apparent noise--all other things being equal--just like a higher resolving film had less apparent grain.


Yup, exactly!

I like to explain why, because a few people will always argue it otherwise.



Oct 09, 2008 at 12:57 PM
ShaneEngelking
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.117 #13 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread


mscottlogan wrote:
does anyone know, if the old 5D battery grip will work on the Mark II or will it be a new battery with a new grip?


Due to the change in batteries, I am guessing no.



Oct 09, 2008 at 01:01 PM
miccullen
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.117 #14 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread


photogenix wrote:
They haven't had the camera for long so some information was scant and some actually possibly incorrect. For example, the presentation said "21.1 Megapixels. What does this mean?" and the first dot point said "More colours" (WTF?).


That's extraordinary, frankly.

Wish I'd known that was on in order to try and wangle an invite.

Thanks for the report, but no thanks for posting a link to it from WP - try to keep them quarantined over there by replacing the link with a cut and paste from here, eh? :-)



Oct 09, 2008 at 01:34 PM
WilliamG
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.117 #15 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread


So, are there any more hands-on or informational things on the MKII? I need a fix!


Oct 09, 2008 at 02:17 PM
Jim Victory
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.117 #16 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread


mscottlogan wrote:
does anyone know, if the old 5D battery grip will work on the Mark II or will it be a new battery with a new grip?


New grip!



Oct 09, 2008 at 02:19 PM
Pete Klinger
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.117 #17 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread




Even though they appear similar, the previous-generation BP-511A batteries are not interchangeable with the new LP-E6 battery pack, and cannot be exchanged for one another. The new EOS-5D Mark II requires the LP-E6 battery pack, and cannot accept the older BP-511A or similar Canon batteries. Likewise, the new LP-E6 cannot be used in the previous EOS 5D, or other EOS bodies which accept the BP-511A battery pack.

One of the reasons I wanted for a 5D was that I could use the same batteries as I do in the 40D. I really don't want a new charger that's camera specific and more batteries that only work in a 5D Mk II. More junk to carry around more batteries to buy.



Oct 09, 2008 at 03:52 PM
barok
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.117 #18 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread


photogenix wrote:
Well I've just come back from the 5D Mk II launch in Melbourne, Australia (at Michael's Camera and Video on Elizabeth St) and there were some Canon reps there. They had the only two bodies (cameras, not reps!) which are in Australia at the moment (and one is staying there until the end of the month). Note that, of course, they were pre-production models.


How did I miss this?! Do you know if the camera will stay at Michael's and for how long?

Thanks for the review by the way



Oct 09, 2008 at 07:13 PM
Bruce Sawle
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.117 #19 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread





http://www.pbase.com/liquidstone/5dm2



Oct 09, 2008 at 09:17 PM
photogenix
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.117 #20 · Canon 5D Mark II master thread


barok wrote:
How did I miss this?! Do you know if the camera will stay at Michael's and for how


I was just hopping around websites hoping to find AU release dates or prices, as well as starting to research hotshoe-mounted microphpones for mine when I get it, and came across a link to some 5D Mk II Launch on Michael's site, so I registered and it was done I think I may have even gone to the site twice and missed it the first time, so it was just a total coincidence. (I like coincidences!)

One of the bodies will reside with Michaels until approx the end of October, the other should be back in the hands of Canon now, so top-level staff can familiarise themselves with it then train others in service areas and the like before the rollout.



Oct 09, 2008 at 10:23 PM
1       2       3              116              118              263       264       end




FM Forums | Canon Forum | Join Upload & Sell

1       2       3              116              118              263       264       end
    
 

Welcome back
Log in to your account