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Archive 2008 · Paul Buff Einstein

  
 
kenyee
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p.13 #1 · Paul Buff Einstein


I'm not sure it's just low price point. As with all things, it's a tradeoff between price, features, customer service. If everyone bought the cheapest strobes they could find, we'd see everyone running the cheapie fleabay strobes for $100
Paul offers a product w/ good features at a good price point w/ *great* customer service IMHO. If you think there's a competitive product at roughly the same price point w/ the same great CS, I'd like to hear a name. If everyone took out the price tradeoff, we'd probably all be running broncolor or photogenic setups and driving around in Porsches...

I'm still ticked off at Bogen for ignoring my messages about their tripod fliplocks clipping off enough flesh to cause profuse bleeding...good products, ok prices, sucky service



Apr 29, 2009 at 12:52 PM
Gregg Heckler
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p.13 #2 · Paul Buff Einstein


"I'm still ticked off at Bogen for ignoring my messages about their tripod fliplocks clipping off enough flesh to cause profuse bleeding...good products, ok prices, sucky service". This is one of the reasons I use Gitzo. But this is also a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Bogen owns both brands, but given the price and feature difference, some may be willing to get pinched a little. You can't have a Gitzo for a Manfrotto price.

Edited on Apr 29, 2009 at 04:08 PM · View previous versions



Apr 29, 2009 at 01:43 PM
sboerup
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p.13 #3 · Paul Buff Einstein


Just from the comments in the past couple pages, we can elude that:
-Paul sells great lights at a great price
-Paul offers great customer service
-Paul's lights don't look so great, not bad enough to avoid them

Why not complete the trifecta?

Like people have said, the main selling point IS NOT looks, but that they are great lights at a great price. People with limited budgets can see that there aren't really any other options for good lights at a good price. Customer service sweetens the deal, not the colors and bee graphics.



Apr 29, 2009 at 03:18 PM
Deezie
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p.13 #4 · Paul Buff Einstein


Fred Gallico wrote: Dude this is just embarrassing for you. Perhaps you should also contact Miller and Canon to see if you can help advise them too. Maybe you can help turn them into successful companies. Include some of the recent ramblings you've posted on the internet....that ought to close the deal!


Are you seriously attempting to make an insightful point by starting out with the word, "Dude?" You've just been removed from the adult table and can eat your holiday dinner with the kids for the remainder of this discussion.

Your perception of corporate brands (Canon, Miller) as faultless seems rather naive given the recent stumbles by Bank of America, American Express, Goldman Sachs, General Motors and other well-established notables that have turned to the government for handouts to survive. And lest you forget the recent closings of venerable chains such as Circuit City, Compusa, Linen's & Things, Mervyns, I think you can get a clear picture that one never knows about the troubles of a brand until matters are quite dire.

Corporate brands hire companies like mine all the time, and we're currently on retainer with several international brands that I have relationships with going all the way back to my years at Ogilvy. It's a part of the business culture to get an objective assessment from outsiders who specialize in branding because company executives are too much in the thick-of-things to see the forest for the trees, so to speak. So thanks for the advice, Fred, but I'm already in contact with many large brands in an advisory capacity. It's what I've done for the past twenty years and have an expertise in this particular area.

BrianO wrote: Two brands? Let's see, he has White Lightning, Zeus, Alien Bees; I count that as three brands. ABMax will be model within the Alien Bees lineup, not a seperate brand, just as you can buy a Ford Focus and a Ford Ranger while staying within the Ford brand. Following that analogy, White Lightning and Zeus could be compared with Lincoln and Mercury; different brands from the same parent company, Paul C. Buff, Inc.

Frankly, your poorly thought out comments don't give you much credability as a "marketing expert."


Brian -- there's a difference between line extension and segmentation. Buff's products are all basically within the same price range, which promotes cannibalism within his own lines, which wouldn't occur if he had both a reasonably-priced product in addition to a professional, higher-priced line. If you consider that he will have the White Lightning, AB's and now the Einsteins, then that creates overlap. Sometimes this works, but generally, the brand finds itself working much harder to just maintain the same market share.

This could also be a brand misstep, such as when Jaguar introduced a line of low-cost cars. The guys paying $70k for their status car realized that they no longer had bragging rights after passing a kid on the streets who paid almost $50k less for the same brand. Jaguar soon realized that this was a misstep and retired the line of cheap cars. I don't know that this type of model will effect Paul, since his low-cost lights are his core line. But cost really is the primary motive for buying his lights. He offers great customer service, but his lights offer the most bang for the buck over competitors in his price range. If the new monolights by Profoto we're priced the same as the AB's, they'd very likely steal away most of Paul's customer base - fan boys and all.



Apr 29, 2009 at 03:29 PM
BrianO
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p.13 #5 · Paul Buff Einstein


mmurph wrote:
...If AB's were so great, why move to digital controls with the Einstein, shorter flash durations, more powerful modelling lights, protecting glass domes, pack and heads with the Zeus, etc.


Because time marches on?

Why did Cessna introduce the Citation jets when their piston twins were still selling well? Why aren't we still driving Model T Fords? They were great cars at the time. Why aren't we still living in caves? They beat the heck out of shivering around the bases of trees.

It's called progress.



Apr 29, 2009 at 05:43 PM
mmurph
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p.13 #6 · Paul Buff Einstein


BrianO wrote:
Because time marches on?


You miss my point.

For the past 3+ years we have been lambasted by Mr Paul B & CO for expressing our **preference** for those types of features.

Sliding POT controls are better than digital, etc. etc.

Now that all of those features are"in house" , they are suddenly desirable and to be drooled over.

Go figure. And to think I had them 15 years ago.



Apr 29, 2009 at 06:32 PM
RDKirk
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p.13 #7 · Paul Buff Einstein



Sliding POT controls are better than digital, etc. etc.

Now that all of those features are"in house" , they are suddenly desirable and to be drooled over.

Go figure. And to think I had them 15 years ago.


Actually, the question there wasn't about the switchology but about the technology. You could get digital switches, but not digital electronic flash technology at this particular price point. Now you can digital technology at this price point.



Apr 29, 2009 at 07:14 PM
RobertLynn
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p.13 #8 · Paul Buff Einstein


Paul Buff wrote:
We sell about 50% Black and 50% in colors. AB sells approximately four times the units as WLX, which sells more in the USA than any competitor besides AB to our knowledge. WLX is everything some of you would like AB to be. What more can I say?


I'm pretty sure when I buy my AB's I'm getting them in White. Who gives a crap what color your lighting is, as long as the output is there, and quality components go in? I could care less about the "childish" marketing. Plenty of professionals use them and don't say about how they are going to buy elinchrom or whatever in the next shoot but use that equipment because it works for them.



Apr 29, 2009 at 08:18 PM
Deezie
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p.13 #9 · Paul Buff Einstein


robertlynn wrote: Who gives a crap what color your lighting is, as long as the output is there, and quality components go in?

Paul Buff gives a crap. That's why he offers so many colors. And I care, as well. I like my lights to look aesthetically pleasing. I like to feel that I own and work with tools that I value. It makes me smile and gives me confidence.

I like my furniture to look cool, because a sense of style in my home gives me pleasure. I care about the clothes that I wear because I know it makes a relevant impression on those I do business with. I wear a suit to funerals because it's respectful. Yeah, I could show up in shorts and flip-flops, but I feel a sense of obligation to my family. I like that my wife takes care of herself and dresses all girly. Yeah, I know that she's a good person inside, but it brings me pleasure to see her looking vibrant and beautiful.

I also prefer paintings by Michelangelo over graffiti or dogs playing poker on a velvet canvas. I give a crap about what my photography looks like. Have you ever been to Florence? It's the look of the city that overwhelms the senses. Cobblestone streets, beautiful architecture, magnificent churches -- you know that you're definitely not in Kansas, Toto.

Say what you want, but the gift of sight is not something to ever take for granted. If you care not a wit for the beauty that life holds in all its wonderful facets, then maybe photography is not your gift to the world.

Edited on Apr 30, 2009 at 11:12 AM · View previous versions



Apr 30, 2009 at 01:07 AM
Paul Buff
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p.13 #10 · Paul Buff Einstein


Way to go Deezie. We are now connecting in code that most won't understand. But we may have to produce a decoder ring so everyone can decipher!


Apr 30, 2009 at 01:37 AM
kenyee
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p.13 #11 · Paul Buff Einstein


Gregg Heckler wrote:
This is one of the reasons I use Gitzo. But this is also a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Bogen owns both brands, but given the price and feature difference, some may be willing to get pinched a little. You can't have a Gitzo for a Manfrotto price.


I switched to Gitzo as well but I did consider other brands because Bogen ticked me off (couldn't find anything else w/ non-spinning legs).
Of course, now Gitzo is now on my ticked off list because they didn't bother to reply about the questions I had about the systematic plate falling off for some people...when you get too big, the "bottom line" is more important to you can customer service. I guess I should just be happy I won't be bled my tripod



Apr 30, 2009 at 09:19 AM
Beni
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p.13 #12 · Paul Buff Einstein


Why on earth have AB's chosen it's European representative in Switzerland? That means that practically every single other country in Europe will have to pay import tax, local VAT and the shippers fees for processing the above. Infact exactly the same as if the units were shipped from the states, knowing Switzerland probably the same amount for shipping as well! The advertised 10% extra over US prices are likely to become rather more than that by the time you have it in your hands. I suppose it will be useful for repair, I have two units that could do with non urgent repair. I just hope that the main office in the states will still offer AB's (classic) with 240V for EU use for $10 extra. My father lectures in the states and is over there about 5 times a year so I still think it would be cheaper to continue ordering from there.


Apr 30, 2009 at 09:33 AM
PeterBerressem
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p.13 #13 · Paul Buff Einstein


Beni wrote:
Why on earth have AB's chosen it's European representative in Switzerland? That means that practically every single other country in Europe will have to pay import tax, local VAT and the shippers fees for processing the above.

Gotham, the rep company, has a subsidiary beyond the fence (in Germany) which caters the EU market. Hence no hassle, all business is inside the EU custom zone.



Apr 30, 2009 at 10:58 AM
mmurph
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p.13 #14 · Paul Buff Einstein


RDKirk wrote:
You could get digital switches, but not digital electronic flash technology at this particular price point. Now you can digital technology at this price point.


Yes, you are correct about the price point. Paul does a great job of that - no question!

But the Broncolor Pulso A4 was 100% digital in 1992. That is what Paul is "cloning" today. That is what I have been using since then, and love to use.

Don't get me wrong - I am **not** criticizing Paul! I haven't ventured into telling him how to run his business either.

I am just saying that those of us who prefer to use higher end equipment have taken **a lot** of shit here from newbies who got their first lights 2 weeks ago, who object that AB's should be good enough for everybody, who think Paul *invented* all of this stuff, and who think that "we" are elitist because we have a need and preference for more "sophisticated" equipment and control!

I have a degree in photography from 1981. I also have an MBA with an Information Systems concentration from 1991. In 1992 I did my first multi-million dollar, proprietary, Digital Asset Management (DAM) system for a Fortune 5 company (in detroit, if that helps - total cost was maybe $50 million at full roll-out worldwide.)

I did my last one in 2006, with 15 terabytes of images at 100K each, 10,000 users, plus the originals "wrapped" in a restricted electronic "vault" to ensure integrity.

When a scanner or an optical jukebox or a server for a project costs $100K, an extra $5K for lighting is not a big deal. And you don't do continous production shoots on a large scale (autos) with a couple of monolights.

Some studios needed duplicate equipment to switch over to when the packs got too hot - after a few hours of constant popping. And these are big, industrial beasts, up to 8,000 Ws at 240 volts.

Different strokes, no question. But there is a real, professional world with specialized needs, beyond those of a hobbyist. I've never had the flak on other professional forums that we have had here when talking higher end. Places where I used to keep my mouth shut because I was a newbie after 30 years, compared to the Hollywood folks at least.

OK, tired and ornery. End rant.





Apr 30, 2009 at 12:00 PM
mmurph
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p.13 #15 · Paul Buff Einstein


kenyee wrote:
[Of course, now Gitzo is now on my ticked off list because they didn't bother to reply about the questions I had about the systematic plate falling off for some people...


The "MAC" model in the US is somewhat broken for the smaller, niche products they represent. It is often hard to even find info on some products they import.

That is where a good **dealer** comes in! There are quite a number out there who rival the best in any industry for customer service. To name a few:

Midwest Photo Exchange - The owner, Stu, gave me his home phone - and every other number he had - and offered to come in on Thanksgiving day when he thought I needed to pick up a printer that day (the day after was fine.)

Dodd Camera in Cleveland - Offered to ship me anything I wanted to test for evaluation, like $6,000 items, on a momenmts notice for long term evaluation with no commitment. Met me while we were both travelling in Chicago just to have coffee and chat, always available via phone or e-mail, etc.

Jim Doyle at Shades of Paper - E-mailed me with his phone number when he saw a post of mine online to offer advice on printer pricing and dealers, not just to try to sell to me himself.

When Dodd offered to match a B&H price on a $4,000 product a few years ago, I insisted on paying them a bit more, because I value the hands-on service they provide.

Find a good dealer you trust, establish a relationship, and don't shop only based on price!

That said, B&H and Calumet have also both been excellent over the years. I continue to patronize all of the above (some are more niche players - paper and ink, Bronocolor specialists, printer specialists, etc.)

Remember, too, that there is a dictinction between **quality** and **customer service**. In fact, if you have the first, you may not need the second!


Best,
Michael



Apr 30, 2009 at 12:13 PM
mmurph
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p.13 #16 · Paul Buff Einstein


Paul Buff wrote:
We are now connecting in code that most won't understand.


Luap abductee!!

Sorry, that is all I know so far. Kind of like saying "good morning" in Spanish??



Apr 30, 2009 at 12:14 PM
Beni
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p.13 #17 · Paul Buff Einstein


PeterBerressem wrote:
Gotham, the rep company, has a subsidiary beyond the fence (in Germany) which caters the EU market. Hence no hassle, all business is inside the EU custom zone.



Oooh that's good news!



Apr 30, 2009 at 01:37 PM
kenyee
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p.13 #18 · Paul Buff Einstein


mmurph wrote:
I did my last one in 2006, with 15 terabytes of images at 100K each, 10,000 users, plus the originals "wrapped" in a restricted electronic "vault" to ensure integrity.


Wow...now that'd be a fun project...I've worked on asset management software but nothing that had anything that order of magnitude usage from customers...definitely jealous that you probably got to play w/ phaseone backs too



Apr 30, 2009 at 05:45 PM
Paul Buff
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p.13 #19 · Paul Buff Einstein


You're going to pay your VAT and import duties whether it goes directly to EU country from us or via Switzerland.


May 01, 2009 at 01:38 AM
mmurph
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p.13 #20 · Paul Buff Einstein


kenyee wrote:
Wow...now that'd be a fun project...


It was! Always!

The first one in 1992 was the best. Everything was in "beta" - our servers, Oracle object-oriented database, optical jukebox. We had to write our own scroll/zoom/pan image management sofware (or someone else did at least - in C++.) And being "old school", understandinbg what you could actually do with digital images was still somethin of a paradigm shift! (ie: WTF??)

That was the first time I had ever seen an A1 size scanner - man, I never used that for my art work, screwed up big time there!

With the auto industry, by 2006, you had to beg to get funding for paper clips or post it notes. Even then it took 9 months to get approval for anything. Basically a slow death by strangulation. Pretty sucky trying to get anything done. (and Michigan is totally f''ed now, FWIW. We have already lost at least 650K good jobs since 2000. Many, many more to come.)



May 01, 2009 at 11:37 AM
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