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Archive 2008 · Is film really going away???

  
 
tennclay
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p.3 #1 · Is film really going away???


brainiac wrote:
I would skip the Leica M's and go straight for a Mamiya 6. Scanned Leica M files will make a 5D look like the bargain of the century. If you want grain and twisted colour, then invest in some photoshop filters that can simulate film effects.

A Mamiya 6 is another matter. It can match a 5D for image quality, and it's a great rangefinder experience. It's a great balance of pocketability and hand-friendliness, with a huge viewfinder. It will blast away the M experience and M quality for about the same price. The only limitation is the not-so-wide apertures, but
...Show more

This true for me - -I have M's and the Mamiya 7II - the difference in the two is significant, as you would expect. I don't use a 35mm film camera that much, except for some B&W and HIE - when a smaller setup is in order. I don't get twisted colors, though!

I've never used a Mamiya 6, but the Mamiya 7II is noticably better than a 5D for large prints. It is hard to tell the difference for a lot of prints up to maybe A3.


Edited by tennclay on Jul 17, 2008 at 05:18 AM GMT

Edited on Jul 17, 2008 at 05:18 AM



Jul 16, 2008 at 06:36 PM
mh2000
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p.3 #2 · Is film really going away???


Nikon has announced that the Coolscan V has been disconintued...

http://www.nikon-image.com/jpn/products/discontinue/digital/index.htm




Jul 16, 2008 at 11:38 PM
GuyWalder
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p.3 #3 · Is film really going away???


Tobin28 wrote:
I was a canon user and then switched to Nikon and am loving the move. I am mostly shooting wedding and the nikon is working perfect for that gig. I want to do some street and candid stuff and I have this huge urge to buy a Leica M7 and a 50mm f1.4 and carry it around with me everywhere.

I wonder how many people are still using film or have a rangerfinder that they use along with their dslr?

Thoughts?

Tobin


I still like 35mm film, I sold my Mamiya 7 and Bronica as MF film didnt seem different enough to digital to me. I like 35mm film for its 'weaknesses' and because I find working with a film camera to be much less intrusive than using digital. No constant chimping, no subject hassling to look at their picture, no fiddling with WB etc...

As for rangefinders, the single biggest asset of the M series, IMHO, is the quiet shutter. Leica made a Big mistake with the M8 shutter (presumably the upgrade option is recognition of that). That is the area where no one else gets close.
Leica like to bang on about their great viewfinder, but I think the Zeiss Ikon finder is way better, better eye relief, better info, less confusing frame lines, but the Ikon shutter makes such a clunk...

edit: scanning film is a real pain though! maybe I should get a proper wet darkroom....

Edited on Jul 17, 2008 at 02:06 AM



Jul 17, 2008 at 02:05 AM
mh2000
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p.3 #4 · Is film really going away???


The Rebel G is almost a quiet as an M... not kidding

>>As for rangefinders, the single biggest asset of the M series, IMHO, is the quiet shutter. Leica made a Big mistake with the M8 shutter (presumably the upgrade option is recognition of that). That is the area where no one else gets close.



Jul 17, 2008 at 10:26 AM
dasrocket
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p.3 #5 · Is film really going away???


since this has turned out into a SLR vs RF discussion here are my two cents worth: dont take the advice of those who have ...heard of...read about...saw in a window...touched..or otherwise "met" a rangefinder; ask those who actually use(d) them.

a couple of points on that note: the LEICA M system, has arguably the best lenses in existence. My personal experience suggested to me this. The M system also has the fastest while smallest range of lenses as well... and I mean usable lenses, not like CANON's 50L 1.0, king of softness!

And one last thing (and this is why one should really try them once themselves) is the VF: put them side by side with any FF DSLR and then see what the fuss is all about

..at the same time...RF is not for everyone...like a previous poster said, you either like the patch or you don't. Personal preference and personal finance are the two major factors here; LEICAs are snob-priced in the stratosphere but if the company survives the M8 transition, IMHO I will be glad to have a choice to the cookie-cutter DSLR systems of these days. Now if the DIKON ever comes out...hmmmm

sorry if this sounds like a rant, but unlike picking between the CANIKONS, one really has to try an RF themselves to see the defference.

its true ...now I'll duck for cover from all the stone throwing, he he he.



Jul 17, 2008 at 12:53 PM
Daniel Buck
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p.3 #6 · Is film really going away???


If I were to get a range finder, I'd probably do mamiya 6, nice square crop images


Jul 17, 2008 at 01:05 PM
craig_oz_land
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p.3 #7 · Is film really going away???


The motion picture industry is still pretty much dominated by film.

Although, I believe Speilberg in one of his recent films used digital for a lot of shots. According to him and others there is still a bit to go for digital to capture the aesthetics of film.




Jul 18, 2008 at 12:58 AM
Daniel Buck
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p.3 #8 · Is film really going away???


There's a big pipeline around film in the movies, it will be an interesting change once things go completely digital, even digital projecting. Even though many things are still shot on film, the film gets heavily color treated with digital equipment, not to mention the huge amount of visual effects that goes into most modern films.

I do agree about the aesthetic of film, that's one thing that I can't get out of my digital! I can't believe it really, I haven't shot my 1Ds2 in probably 5 months, accept for some things at work I've been shooting darn near exclusively B&W film for all of my personal stuff. I didn't set out to do that, but it seems to be happening that way.

Edited on Jul 18, 2008 at 01:30 AM



Jul 18, 2008 at 01:25 AM
Andi Dietrich
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p.3 #9 · Is film really going away???


A couple of years back I was a fine b/w printer and using the darkroom was almost as important as making pictures. With the need of scanning the film as its done today, some part of the fun has gone.

btw: I made the prints for this book kinski

Edited on Jul 18, 2008 at 03:04 AM



Jul 18, 2008 at 02:57 AM
ISO1600
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p.3 #10 · Is film really going away???


Daniel, and others that shoot a lot of B&W- how are you developing? I have been doing my 35mm in 2-roll tanks, with all the stupid hand-agitation and all that jazz.

I definitely ENJOY the finished product, and i enjoy the different looks i can get when developing w/ different chemicals and all that- but i hate the whole tank part of it. Are you guys using Jobo machines, or what? I just can't do this every day haha.

And about the Leica M sytem: Yes, an M6 or M7 coupled with a few of their fine lenses (21/2.8, 28/2, 35/2, 50/1.0, 75/1.4) makes quite an amazing system, capable of some practically unmatchable results... but the cost involved, and the "get over it" factor if you don't like focusing with the patch!!!! I am literally upset that it doesn't work for me, because i love the form factor, and i desire that Voigltander 35/1.4 so much! My Hexar was an outstanding camera, and i took some very pleasing pictures with it.... when i remembered to focus haha!

and yes, it is all about the finder. When my cousin asked me about the finder on my Hexar, i told him to look around the room he was in, and that is about the same light level as it would be through the finder. A good RF loses almost no light at all compared to an SLR which is dependant on the lens used.



Jul 18, 2008 at 03:48 AM
brainiac
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p.3 #11 · Is film really going away???


craig_oz_land wrote:
The motion picture industry is still pretty much dominated by film.

Although, I believe Speilberg in one of his recent films used digital for a lot of shots. According to him and others there is still a bit to go for digital to capture the aesthetics of film.



http://www.red.com/cameras



Jul 18, 2008 at 03:52 AM
brainiac
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p.3 #12 · Is film really going away???


GuyWalder wrote:
...the single biggest asset of the M series, IMHO, is the quiet shutter.


There are a great many cameras with quieter shutters. Sigma DP1, Canon G9, and Fuji F31d to name but three.



Jul 18, 2008 at 03:56 AM
ISO1600
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p.3 #13 · Is film really going away???


Hell, a lowly Olympus OM2N is about the same noise level as an M.


Jul 18, 2008 at 03:58 AM
brainiac
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p.3 #14 · Is film really going away???


dasrocket wrote:
And one last thing (and this is why one should really try them once themselves) is the VF: put them side by side with any FF DSLR and then see what the fuss is all about

..at the same time...RF is not for everyone...like a previous poster said, you either like the patch or you don't.


Actually there are some objective differences between the two focussing methods. It's not just taste that has made SLR focussing dominant in the pro camera market.

Rangefinders...
- offer no way of focussing off-centre subjects with normal or wide-angled lenses at wide apertures
- confirm focus incorrectly on patterns
- require rotation of camera to focus horizontal lines
- can not show depth-of-field preview
- do not show accurate picture bounds
- do not allow you to accurately line up or occlude items in the picture
- and, most importantly, do not allow simultaneous composition and focussing of off-center subjects

There are many other ways in which rangefinders are obstructive compared to TTL viewfinders, but when all these issues are combined, they are quite limiting. OTOH, what are the advantages? A quiet shutter, size, and a bright viewfinder with dark lenses. Film is expensive, time consuming, and ultimately capable of lesser quality per square cm than digital. The best digital rangefinder is very expensive, very heavy for its size, not full frame, unreliable, requires IR-cut filters for normal colour, and is significantly outperformed in image quality and usability by a Canon XSi/450D.

Leica M is romantic, sure, but let's not pretend that it is any longer a viable alternative to 'Canikon'. If you get an M, don't forget to factor in the cost of film scanning time or some brutal noise reduction software and of course, a beret ;-)

I'm not saying don't go there, I'm just saying be aware of the costs, limitations, and don't believe the hype. There's little point having allegedly the best lenses in the world if the recording medium means that your pictures aren't any better than an XSi/450D with a kit lens.

BTW, before anyone criticises me for attacking Leica, I bother to offer this advice because it is my opinion that Leica M digital or film can be quite a big waste of money. If my comments temper some of the brand-reverence that surrounds Leica, and encourages a camera buyer to objectively assess whether all that money is well spent, then I think that's my good deed for the day.

Flame suit on.

Edited on Jul 18, 2008 at 04:32 AM



Jul 18, 2008 at 04:15 AM
Lotusm50
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p.3 #15 · Is film really going away???


And yet, people have done so well with them for so long.

Some of these faults were faults of SLR's not too long ago. There is a lot of technology packed into top-level SLR's these days. However, SLR's are not necessarily the perfect answer to the faults of rangefinders listed.

Focusing off-center, or off a focus point still requires you to move the camera to put the focusing point on the subject. Really when you get down to it, it's not much different.

SLR's can also have problems with certain subjects, and certainly have focus issues in low light.

Not showing depth of field -- OK, but if you familiar with your lenses you pretty much know what the DOF will be at different apertures. This is just substituting a switch for experience and knowledge.

None of these issues are truly deal-breakers for rangefinders. They may make you take an extra second from time to time -- but you've already made the commitment to working a little slower by accepting manual focus. And if you prefer the way they operate and the way they let you see, you prefer their form factor, appreciate the higher performance potential of the lenses (and can afford it), then it's an easy decision to go with a rangefinder. Not perfect, not loaded with convenience technology and not for all situations, but quite a usable and effective tool for many.

I accept this reality and do not own a Leica M, and think they are overpriced. I hold no pro-Leica biases, nor any romantic feelings toward the brand -- indeed, I often find a find to speak ill of them. ;-)


brainiac wrote:
Actually there are some objective differences between the two focusing methods. It's not just taste that has made SLR focusing dominant in the pro camera market.

Rangefinders...
- offer no way of focussing off-centre subjects with normal or wide-angled lenses at wide apertures
- confirm focus incorrectly on patterns
- require rotation of camera to focus horizontal lines
- can not show depth-of-field preview
- do not show accurate picture bounds
- do not allow you to accurately line up or occlude items in the picture
- and, most importantly, do not allow simultaneous composition and focussing of off-center subjects

There are many other ways in which rangefinders
...Show more


Edited on Jul 18, 2008 at 07:51 AM



Jul 18, 2008 at 07:48 AM
brainiac
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p.3 #16 · Is film really going away???


Lotusm50 wrote:
Focusing off-center, or off a focus point still requires you to move the camera to put the focusing point on the subject. Really when you get down to it, it's not much different.


On a DSLR you can compose, and then use your ground glass screen to focus on an off-centre subject manually, without recomposing. That is the method I resort to when accurate focus really matters. With a rangefinder the centre patch is the _only_ way of focussing, therefore it is impossible to accurately focus off-centre subjects with a 35 f1.4 because the act of recomposing will move the focus behind the subject. Always. No way out.

It is easy to see how much difference this makes. Put a 35 f2 on your DSLR and manually focus on an object towards the edge of the frame. Then move the camera so that the object is in the centre of the frame. Focus will be significantly off since lenses are designed to have _planes_ of focus. The effect is even noticeable with a 50 f1.4. A rangefinder has no way of focussing off-centre subjects accurately. Focus-recompose is quite a bad approximation.

Edited on Jul 18, 2008 at 09:44 AM



Jul 18, 2008 at 09:40 AM
Lotusm50
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p.3 #17 · Is film really going away???


brainiac wrote:
It is easy to see how much difference this makes. Put a 35 f2 on your DSLR and manually focus on an object towards the edge of the frame. Then move the camera so that the object is in the centre of the frame. Focus will be significantly off since lenses are designed to have _planes_ of focus. The effect is even noticeable with a 50 f1.4. A rangefinder has no way of focussing off-centre subjects accurately. Focus-recompose is quite a bad approximation.



I am aware it's a issue I just don't think it's all that big of issue relative to DSLR's. The ground glass for manually focusing an AF DSLR with an off-center subject usually leaves much to be desired, especially with wide angle lenses. Accuracy is not grea, and it gets worse with slower lenses (I actually recently tried this with a few different 35mm lenses on a 5D with an Ee-S screen). An SLR isn't a panacea, although with the many focus points available with current top DSLR's, you can probably get a focus point that is close so you don't have to recompose too much after focusing, minimizing the inaccuracy. With any camera though, you just need to be aware of the inaccuracy that a focus-recompose technique can cause and compensate for adjust for it. They is no substitute for knowing how yout camera works and what it is doing so you can use it effectively. Technology can only help so much (and introduce it's own issues).




Jul 18, 2008 at 11:06 AM
edwardkaraa
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p.3 #18 · Is film really going away???


Well, from memory, I can say a great deal of the famous photos taken with Leicas and other RF do show that focus isn't one of their strengths. But this also shows that sharpness isn't everything to make a great photo.



Edited on Jul 18, 2008 at 11:22 AM



Jul 18, 2008 at 11:22 AM
mrladewig
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p.3 #19 · Is film really going away???


edwardkaraa wrote:
Well, from memory, I can say a great deal of the famous photos taken with Leicas and other RF do show that focus isn't one of their strengths. But this also shows that sharpness isn't everything to make a great photo.



There is much truth in this statement.



Jul 18, 2008 at 11:30 AM
Gary Petersen
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p.3 #20 · Is film really going away???


If you toss out all of us photo nuts then film is dead. Just watch the blue haired ladies at the Walgreen's with their p&s cameras having a blast.


Jul 18, 2008 at 03:11 PM
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