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Archive 2008 · 1Ds3 + 35L: samples AF performance

  
 
AGeoJO
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p.4 #1 · 1Ds3 + 35L: samples AF performance


HeintjeLee wrote:
I really like the look of the 35L with 1Dmk3 @ 1.4 @ 3-5ft and I will see myself using it often once Canon get my 1Dmk3 working properly. 3-5 ft is will cover about 1/2 body portraits. And I found out about the problem not from doing test shots but doing actual shots. I was shooting a friend reading a book, focused on the eyes but came out OOF and the book in front is sharp.


Another issue with using a fast lens at wide open - how did you focus, using the center AF point and recompose or did you focus using one of the outside AF point but barely recompose? Daan's issue is using an outside AF in one-shot mode and not in AI-Servo. His experience using the center point is positive, both on AI-Servo and one-shot mode; using AI-Servo and an outside AF point seems to be positive, as well. His issues, which are inconsistencies issues, are with some outside AF points using the one-shot mode. I am not quite sure how or what yours is....



Jul 05, 2008 at 11:19 AM
Yohan Pamudji
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p.4 #2 · 1Ds3 + 35L: samples AF performance


All in all this thread is a bit disheartening to me. I encountered similar AF inaccuracy with a couple of 1D Mark II bodies and multiple lenses that otherwise work perfectly with the center point, so I figured it was just systematic (not copy variation) due to those outer points being non cross-type sensors, and that something like the Mark III system with cross-type sensors spread all over the frame would do the trick. Looks like that's not the case. I know, the last thing you want to hear is that it could be a systematic Canon problem and not copy variation since that means no fix in sight, but in a perverse twisted way there's some comfort in that since that would mean your camera isn't the only one inflicted with this Good luck with your further testing, and whatever the cause of this problem I hope Canon can fix it. You might have to escalate this to a senior tech, as this is probably beyond the realm of the level 1 techs' typical work.


Jul 05, 2008 at 11:42 AM
markle
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p.4 #3 · 1Ds3 + 35L: samples AF performance


It doesn't look good.
on both 1Ds II and 1Ds I my copy of the 35 gives the same softness at 1.4 but it's because of the lens. Yours (in MF) at 1.4 is really good!
I don't have a 1DsIII so I can't comment .

but I saw a "jumping AF" within shots on a 1DsII the moment I changed the focusing screen to the ec-D. Actually I never had any AF problem with the camera before that. Weird...

sorry if this post is off topic. But if you have the chance to get a standard focusing screen from a 1DsII or 1DsI I'd definitely try it on...







Jul 05, 2008 at 11:50 AM
Daan B
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p.4 #4 · 1Ds3 + 35L: samples AF performance


BTW Does anybody know when Canon introduced the elliptical curved surface AF mirror that they use in the mkIII's? Or is it new to the mkIII cameras?

Looking over the test results from both the 35L and 24-70L it is clear that when focus is off, it is worst in case of the 35L. Even at f/2.8 and f/4 this is more obvious.

Maybe the mkIII's have more difficulty getting focus right than previous cameras with fast lenses. Just a thought... Maybe this has something to do with the elliptical curved surface AF mirror? How precisely I don't know... I was never good at physics

Edited on Jul 05, 2008 at 12:37 PM



Jul 05, 2008 at 12:37 PM
Hrow
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p.4 #5 · 1Ds3 + 35L: samples AF performance


My only point in bringing up tolerances is that is what you are likely to hear from Canon. Doesn't make it right - it is just one of the many excuses that I had to listen to for months. In my case, I finally simplified things down to the following question, which interestingly, got some attention from Canon supervisors... should my $4500 with a $1500 lens sitting on top of an $800 tripod fired with a cable release and mirror lock-up be able to take a picture of better quality than a $100 point & shoot?

The obvious answer from Canon was yes, to which my response was "then the f&*king thing is broken and I want it fixed or my money back."



Jul 05, 2008 at 01:11 PM
snowboarder
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p.4 #6 · 1Ds3 + 35L: samples AF performance


Daan B wrote:
BTW There are others with the same issue... I wouldn't be surprised if all 1D(s)3 cams show the same issue.

A lot of people blame the resolving power of the 21MP sensor or a strong AA filter for the lack of sharpness in 1Ds3 files... I wonder if these people ever tried MF with the 1Ds3?



This is just nuts. Kind of logical though, it's the same 1D MkIII cr@ppy AF module...
No wonder 5D II is late. They have some serious issues right now.



Jul 05, 2008 at 01:24 PM
morganb4
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p.4 #7 · 1Ds3 + 35L: samples AF performance


Thats a very interesting point. You can easily sharpen your way past the AA filter in post. I routinely use 300%, 0.3r, 0t on my 1dsII files as a kind of capture sharpening. You can cut your fingerfs on the images. I

snowboarder wrote:
This is just nuts. Kind of logical though, it's the same 1D MkIII cr@ppy AF module...
No wonder 5D II is late. They have some serious issues right now.




Jul 05, 2008 at 06:11 PM
morganb4
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p.4 #8 · 1Ds3 + 35L: samples AF performance


Josh,
Nearest AF point only



AGeoJO wrote:
Another issue with using a fast lens at wide open - how did you focus, using the center AF point and recompose or did you focus using one of the outside AF point but barely recompose? Daan's issue is using an outside AF in one-shot mode and not in AI-Servo. His experience using the center point is positive, both on AI-Servo and one-shot mode; using AI-Servo and an outside AF point seems to be positive, as well. His issues, which are inconsistencies issues, are with some outside AF points using the one-shot mode. I am not quite sure how or
...Show more



Jul 05, 2008 at 06:13 PM
HeintjeLee
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p.4 #9 · 1Ds3 + 35L: samples AF performance


AGeoJO wrote:
Another issue with using a fast lens at wide open - how did you focus, using the center AF point and recompose or did you focus using one of the outside AF point but barely recompose? Daan's issue is using an outside AF in one-shot mode and not in AI-Servo. His experience using the center point is positive, both on AI-Servo and one-shot mode; using AI-Servo and an outside AF point seems to be positive, as well. His issues, which are inconsistencies issues, are with some outside AF points using the one-shot mode. I am not quite sure how or
...Show more

I used the rightmost AF point and recomposed my subject to the left

I have the same issue as Daan. Centerpoint is ok, but bad front focus with the outer focusing point. it happens in one shot mode and without recomposing.



Jul 05, 2008 at 10:46 PM
Daan B
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p.4 #10 · 1Ds3 + 35L: samples AF performance


Ok, some conclusions after having tested all the 19 AF points with the 35L, 24-70L and 85L II.

The 19 AF points show different behaviour with these three lenses. There are a couple of "bad" AF points that all lenses share (upper right corner for example), but there are a lot that are actually different between these lenses. All three lenses have an average of 9 AF points in total that are off. Also, it makes a difference shooting in vertical or horizontal mode with the same lens as to which AF points are off.

So it looks like every lens (and its shooting orientation) has a different effect on the 1Ds3 AF system. But if lenses share the same FL, the differences seem to be the least. There are more differences between 24-70L @ 35mm / 35L and the 85L II than there are between the 24-70L @ 35mm and the 35L in sharing the same "bad" AF points. But this could also be a coincidence.

With the 85L II, most mis-focus is covered up by the DOF by f/4 and sometimes by f/2-f/2.8. With the 24-70L @ 35mm and the 35L sometimes f/4 isn't enough to cover up any mis-focus. This could be related to what Henry suggested, that because of the larger DOF at wide angle focal lengths, and Canon uses an AF tolerance of 1/3 of the DOF at wide open, there is more room for the AF to mess up. OTOH, more room could theoretically also mean that the AF has more DOF to cover up it's mistakes.

With both the 35L and 85L II I also have experienced very large front focus issues... I mean, in a sequence all of a sudden the focus could be way off (like half a meter), while the next shot was good. Like AF hick-ups.

What next? If all lenses make the 1Ds3 react differently as to what AF points are off, it is useless for a tech to adjust individual AF points. I mean, when he adjusts one AF point for a certain lens, it could be way off with another, etc. And for all I know the AF points could very well be adjusted properly and something else is going on.

The last time I asked the tech to have a good look at some AF points that I had trouble with. Maybe he screwed up on these, or maybe there is something else going on, but afterwards I didn't notice any difference in AF performance on these specific AF points. Actually, overall I couldn't detect any differences at all. Points that were bad before adjustment, were also bad afterwards.

So, that leaves me with little hope that calibration of the body is an option to cure things. Unless it is possible to calibrate every AF point to any lens. But I know Canon Service calibrates all the 45 AF points of the body first, and than calibrates all lenses using only the center AF point of the body. And even then, maybe the cause of these AF problems is an entirely different one.

So I will see what the tech will conclude. Any next steps are based on his ruling. If he finds that there is room for improvement by calibrating or repairing it shall be done. If he thinks it is hopeless, it probably means a new camera. But do I really want that? At this moment maybe I'd rather have my money back... But this probably only happens when hell freezes over

In the meantime, when I take the occasional AF hick-ups for granted, the situation is workable when I only use the center AF point with wide angle lenses and when I stop down a little when using the outer AF points of (medium) tele lenses. Of course MF is always an option, if the situation allows for it. Thank God for Live View in these cases...

I must say I am somewhat disappointed in the 1Ds3 AF. One of the reasons to give my 5D some rest, was because I wanted more accurate and reliable AF on the outer AF points with larger apertures. But guess what...? The 5D's AF kicks the 1Ds3's AF ass if it comes to using wide aperture lenses (on outer AF points). At this point I experience the 1Ds3's AF is limiting to my creativity and therefore my business. I find it hard having to bow down to the AF quirks of this "camera" because they are so inconsistent and unexpected.

However, I will give the tech another change and hope my collected data is of some use for him

To be continued...




Edited by Daan B on Jul 06, 2008 at 09:05 AM GMT

Edited by Daan B on Jul 06, 2008 at 09:07 AM GMT

Edited on Jul 06, 2008 at 04:07 AM



Jul 06, 2008 at 03:37 AM
Glassbottle
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p.4 #11 · 1Ds3 + 35L: samples AF performance


I've been slow to jump into this thread largely because I've been pathologically avoiding my 35L since I first noticed it misfocusing on my 1Ds3, which is now quite some time ago.

Anyway, inspired by this discussion, I mounted the lens, did a meticulous AF microadjustment and then tore around the house snapping household objects at f/1.4, at about 3-4ft distance, using each AF point in turn.

This was hardly a methodical test and certainly not conclusive, but I seem to have found that:

The lens focuses much better than it did before this round of microadjustment.
The lens noticeably misses focus at f/1.4 about one shot in three using the outer AF points, versus only about 1 in 10 using the centre point.
I can't say at this stage that any outer AF points are worse than others.

All in all, I feel somewhat better. Not perfect, but certainly usable.



Jul 06, 2008 at 04:02 AM
Daan B
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p.4 #12 · 1Ds3 + 35L: samples AF performance


Glassbottle wrote:
I've been slow to jump into this thread largely because I've been pathologically avoiding my 35L since I first noticed it misfocusing on my 1Ds3, which is now quite some time ago.

Anyway, inspired by this discussion, I mounted the lens, did a meticulous AF microadjustment and then tore around the house snapping household objects at f/1.4, at about 3-4ft distance, using each AF point in turn.

This was hardly a methodical test and certainly not conclusive, but I seem to have found that:

The lens focuses much better than it did before this round of microadjustment.
The lens noticeably misses focus at f/1.4
...Show more

Thanks for joining in

It is good to know that you find your 35L usable. It is also only logical that the center AF point gives a better AF performance than the outer AF points. In my case, with some points AF is so off, it looks like it is never coming back. Consistently. Other points are inconsistently off.

May I ask if you have any bad AF experiences wih other lenses? If I remember correctly I thought you mentioned something of that nature in a previous thread about the 35L AF problems. And if so, do these lenses share the same "bad" AF points, of does it seem to be a more random event?


Edited on Jul 06, 2008 at 04:20 AM



Jul 06, 2008 at 04:17 AM
Glassbottle
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p.4 #13 · 1Ds3 + 35L: samples AF performance


No, I can say with certainty that I have no AF points that are consistently off by a mile. I think that must be a particular problem with your body.

The other lens that was giving me trouble was the 85/1.8. It turned out to be a plain and simple case of miscalibration. I don't know how I got it wrong the first time round, but I did. With appropriate microadjustment that lens is now bang-on almost all the time (even, interestingly enough, using outer AF points. I think it's a lot better than the 35L in that respect. I will try to check that methodically when I have time).

In real-life bread-and-butter shooting I've had no particularly troubling AF misses by my other lenses, including the 24-70L.

I must say I'm feeling pretty good about the 1Ds3 these days, and I'm sorry you don't share that experience.



Jul 06, 2008 at 04:37 AM
Daan B
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p.4 #14 · 1Ds3 + 35L: samples AF performance


Glassbottle wrote:
In real-life bread-and-butter shooting I've had no particularly troubling AF misses by my other lenses, including the 24-70L.


It's funny, because I have huge AF misses (about half a meter) mostly when doing real-life bread-and-butter shooting. So far with all my lenses except for the 70-200mm f/4 L IS.

I must say I'm feeling pretty good about the 1Ds3 these days, and I'm sorry you don't share that experience.

I am sorry too... There are other that are sorry too, I am sure of it. Glad to know there are also users that have good experiences.



Jul 06, 2008 at 04:55 AM
lexvo
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p.4 #15 · 1Ds3 + 35L: samples AF performance


Daan, just to be sure: did you take multiple shots when you tested the AF and did you refocus in between? I found that my 50/1.4 is not consistent in low light levels. Several shots with AF give different results. See this example:

Whole scene:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~lex1963/images/T50-1.jpg

100% crops:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~lex1963/images/T50-2.jpg

These were all at f/1.4, I just pressed the shutter/AF several times. #3 and #4 are OK, #2 is 'almost' OK and #1 is off.


Edited on Jul 06, 2008 at 05:35 AM



Jul 06, 2008 at 05:33 AM
Daan B
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p.4 #16 · 1Ds3 + 35L: samples AF performance


lexvo wrote:
Daan, just to be sure: did you take multiple shots when you tested the AF and did you refocus in between?


Yeah, I shot the following sequence: f/1.4 AF/MF, f/2 AF/MF, f/2.8 AF/MF, f/4 AF/MF. I refocused before every shot either by pressing the release button half way (in case of AF) or with using Live View (in case of MF).

Your results are similair to what I am seeing when using the outer AF points with fast lenses. I think that is what Glassbottle was seeing also. A few OOF shots when using the outer AF points with fast apertures is kind of normal. When you use Live View to focus manually you can see that some AF points have less contrast than others (mostly the most outer AF points). This results in the outer AF points being less precise. However, with the 35L and to some extent also the 24-70L @ 35mm and 85L II -with some AF points- I can't get any shot in focus. Problem is that these "bad" AF points seem to be different for every lens (?) That's not normal...

BTW Did you do this tests with a 1Ds3? When in focus, you have a sharp 50 at 1.4

Edited on Jul 06, 2008 at 05:51 AM



Jul 06, 2008 at 05:48 AM
morganb4
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p.4 #17 · 1Ds3 + 35L: samples AF performance


For me I dont mine the occasional near miss, I can usually sharpen my way out of it. Its the more severe randomness thats the drama.


Jul 06, 2008 at 06:38 AM
Daan B
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p.4 #18 · 1Ds3 + 35L: samples AF performance


Ok, now I am definitely going nuts...

The 35L test shots I did yesterday had some "bad" AF points (tripod, flat surface parallel to the sensor plane). See for yourself:

FF, AF point directly to the middle left of the center one:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3032/2641246251_85aa0a6dc9_o.jpg

100% crops of the area of focus:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3181/2641246241_9a03ef68c9_o.jpg

Today I redid the test shot using the exact same conditions and AF point. See for yourself:

100% crops of the area of focus:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3279/2641246245_228c03e934_o.jpg

It's now official... My cam is being haunted by the AF ghost

Anyway, at this point I don't think the AF problems are caused by the AF system itself. Otherwise it should give the same faults every time. And because OOF pics look like they suffer from motion blur (with shutterspeeds running in the thousands of seconds), maybe the cause is some vibration inside the camera itself. Maybe the dust reduction?

Edited by Daan B on Jul 06, 2008 at 12:19 PM GMT

Edited on Jul 06, 2008 at 07:19 AM



Jul 06, 2008 at 06:45 AM
Daan B
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p.4 #19 · 1Ds3 + 35L: samples AF performance


morganb4 wrote:
For me I dont mine the occasional near miss, I can usually sharpen my way out of it. Its the more severe randomness thats the drama.


I fully agree



Jul 06, 2008 at 06:46 AM
morganb4
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p.4 #20 · 1Ds3 + 35L: samples AF performance


Daan, that test you just did, what were the times of day Was one shot under predominantly daylight, whilst the other predmonantly tungsten?

Edited on Jul 06, 2008 at 07:41 AM



Jul 06, 2008 at 07:40 AM
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