p.2 #2 · UPDATE: Whats with the anti photography hysteria?
So it's OK to drop your son off at a busy mall, but it's not OK to have him walk down a busy street? I've worked in law enforcement for many years, and one thing I know is that Mall Security just doesn't walk up to people and ask them to leave. It takes a lot for them to actually act, and perform their duties. I love it when parents get upset because their children have been mistreated (in their mind) and are upset because the place they "dropped" their kid off doesn't want to deal with them, or have asked them to leave. If you want the mall to watch your kids, then you need to accept the rules they enforce.
Another thing to remember is that parent's do not have to be called unless the juvenile is being arrested. In that case, the police are called and then the parents. The mall (or any other business) can ask anyone to leave at any time, and do not have any obligation to call parents.
I don't mean to be rude, but like it was said before, "There are two sides to every story."
And maybe a camera bag would be a good investment, rather than cargo pants.
p.2 #3 · UPDATE: Whats with the anti photography hysteria?
Ken Hernandez wrote:
So it's OK to drop your son off at a busy mall, but it's not OK to have him walk down a busy street? I've worked in law enforcement for many years, and one thing I know is that Mall Security just doesn't walk up to people and ask them to leave. It takes a lot for them to actually act, and perform their duties. I love it when parents get upset because their children have been mistreated (in their mind) and are upset because the place they "dropped" their kid off doesn't want to deal with them, or have asked them to leave. If you want the mall to watch your kids, then you need to accept the rules they enforce.
Another thing to remember is that parent's do not have to be called unless the juvenile is being arrested. In that case, the police are called and then the parents. The mall (or any other business) can ask anyone to leave at any time, and do not have any obligation to call parents.
I don't mean to be rude, but like it was said before, "There are two sides to every story."
And maybe a camera bag would be a good investment, rather than cargo pants.
Well..I'm not one of those "my kid does no wrong parents" I don't ask anyone to put up with any shit from my kid and I sure don't. He's pretty well behaved but he's a teenager and they just dont think some times.
I worked security for a number of years...every where from Retail to Nightclub security. I absolutely know they have a right to ask people to leave for carrying a camera...I think it's silly, but a lot of places do that and it's their right. Its not uncommon for some business to ask people to leave who are carrying a camera. It's silly because nearly everyone in any mall in the US is carrying a camera phone.
I would have been ok with them making him sit out front in the well lit waiting area and wait for his mother. I would have been ok with them calling or letting him use a payphone to call me to come pick him up. And yeah, I have no problem dropping him off at a well lit indoor mall that has security. It's what kids do around here...kind of a transition from keeping them under constant supervision and letting them go off on their own. The mall makes a lot of money off of kids doing exactly that and my son does spend money there every time he goes. I used to go to the same mall when I was his age all the time....
I have a probelm with them making him leave the property, at night, so that we, his parents, cant find him. They have a legal right to do that, and I have a right to let people know that they do do that and perhaps we parents should take our kids buisiness...and our business...to a mall that acts a little more responsably towards its customrs. Capitalism in action.
'
Anyway, the mall management itself seems to agree with me, and are looking into it..
And hauling a camera bag around for one camera and one lens seems pointless.
p.2 #5 · UPDATE: Whats with the anti photography hysteria?
watkinssr wrote:
Yep. He wasnt taking any pictures, so he wasnt violating their rules. Did you read the OP?
How would letting him sit on a park bench in front of the mall until his ride shows up=running a day care center? What a silly statement.
What would it hurt? It would not harm their business nor cost them any money.
Malls make a huge chunk of their profit from teenagers whose parents drop them off. It is irresponsible to then force said teenagers to walk off down a busy street after dark where their parents cant find them. The person in the malls management who I talked to aggreed, and they are doing an investigation into what happened.
I did read. The mall security didn't say they personally saw him take pictures, just that they had reports that he did. It could be a BS story they made up or not. Regardless they have every right to tell people to leave the mall--malls aren't public spaces.
Think about it from the mall's perspective. Some teen gets in trouble, then asks "Can I wait for my mom?" the mall staff capitulates, and the teen goes off and gets into more trouble. How is the security guard going to know which kids are going to be good and which are going to be bad?
The security guards could sit around and wait with the kid (like a daycare center) or they can escort them off the premises.
p.2 #6 · UPDATE: Whats with the anti photography hysteria?
Update:
I just got off the phone with the mall manager and the head of security who were pretty decent about the whole thing.
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First, they read the report from the officer involved. No suprises there. They got a complaint from a customer that he might be taking pictures, the security observed him for a while and couldn't confirm he was taking pictures, but decided to ask him to leave
Second. The general manager of the mall said they DO NOT have a policy against taking pictues unless you are annoying the other guests or are taking pictures of the store fronts.
Third, according to the manager even if he had ben violating this policy then the officer should have given him a warning.
Fourth, he should have been alowed to wait out front on the bench.
The said they have clarified the rules with their security personel to make sure this doesnt happen again. I told them I was totally ok with that.
So there you have it. an over zealous employee.
Hulen mall in Fort Worth is reasonably photographer friendly and not staffed by kid hating terrorists.
p.2 #7 · UPDATE: Whats with the anti photography hysteria?
HinduG wrote:
I did read. The mall security didn't say they personally saw him take pictures, just that they had reports that he did. It could be a BS story they made up or not. Regardless they have every right to tell people to leave the mall-
Never denied this.
-malls aren't public spaces.
they are actually semi-public places...but again, they have a right to ask anyone to leave.
Think about it from the mall's perspective. Some teen gets in trouble, then asks "Can I wait for my mom?" the mall staff capitulates, and the teen goes off and gets into more trouble. How is the security guard going to know which kids are going to be good and which are going to be bad?
having owned a business that is patronized by teenagers and having worked security I can answer this one. You don't know but unless they are causing a disturbance you assume they are going to respond well and be ready for it not to.
The security guards could sit around and wait with the kid (like a daycare center) or they can escort them off the premises.
Logical Fallacy: False Delima. There are more options. You let the kid sit outside (which as it turns out, is what the officer was supposed to do according to mall policy) and you keep an eye out for him coming back in...which is part of working security in a public place. I did nightclub security (bouncer) I've thrown a lot of people out of a lot of places...whether you make them leave the parking lot or just wait outside is no indicator that they are not going to try to sneak back in. Thats part of the whole retail end of capitalism, you have to balance your employees inconvienience dealing with the public against public and customer relations.
p.2 #9 · UPDATE: Whats with the anti photography hysteria?
The camera bag would have prevented all this trouble. And you don't want your kid released to the cops. They don't do day care either. They will find the people charged with taking care of abused, neglected, abandoned, etc., kids. Then you get to play games with them explaining why you weren't available and your under age child was left unsuperviosed, etc.
You and he need to take responsibility for your own actions and not look to blame others. It came out OK, step in the honey pot because your feelings are hurt and maybe the next time won't be as easy to resolve.
p.2 #10 · UPDATE: Whats with the anti photography hysteria?
Craig Gillette wrote:
The camera bag would have prevented all this trouble.
No, it wouldn't See the above where the mall manager and head of security have stated that my kid did nothing wrong and should not have been asked to leave
And you don't want your kid released to the cops. They don't do day care either. They will find the people charged with taking care of abused, neglected, abandoned, etc., kids. Then you get to play games with them explaining why you weren't available and your under age child was left unsuperviosed, etc.
No, they wont. A 15 year old is not required to have constant supervision, and I was available. I used to work directly with child protective. The police in this case would have just called me, which is what I wanted them to do.
You and he need to take responsibility for your own actions
I always do.
and not look to blame others. It came out OK, step in the honey pot because your feelings are hurt and maybe the next time won't be as easy to resolve.
My feelings werent hurt, I dont know what a honey pot is,and I'm not blaming anyone except the security officer WHOS BOSSES already have said was to blame. (did you read the above?)
Your tone is insulting, and your reading motivation into my statements that arent there. I'm not those parents you have dealt with who throw a fit when their kids get disciplined when they deserve it. Don't transfer your previous experiances to my situation, it's not what you are imagining it to be.
To summerize, The mall has already admitted that my kid was not violating mall policy and should not have been asked to leave. They have further stated that if he was asked to leave, he should not have been asked to leave the property, merely to wait outside.
By taking the time to contact management I got their security to re-educate their officers as to the actual mall policy and possibly saved some other parent the grief I went through.
p.2 #11 · UPDATE: Whats with the anti photography hysteria?
"And hauling a camera bag around for one camera and one lens seems pointless."
You guys knew malls and cameras don't always mix. That's why he took the lens off. A camera bag, a plastic bag, a paper bag all would have prevented any kind of problem. That was the point. You or he expected a problem and had one. Sure the mall is backtracking, they didn't do as well as they could have.
p.2 #12 · UPDATE: Whats with the anti photography hysteria?
Craig Gillette wrote:
"And hauling a camera bag around for one camera and one lens seems pointless."
You guys knew malls and cameras don't always mix. That's why he took the lens off. A camera bag, a plastic bag, a paper bag all would have prevented any kind of problem. That was the point. You or he expected a problem and had one. Sure the mall is backtracking, they didn't do as well as they could have.
Neither did you.
Good lord. The kid carried a camera on a shoulder strap and you act like he was spraypainting his name on the food court. I didn't expect a problem, I taught my kid to be polite and take REASONABLE steps to avoid the appearance of causing problems.
If you are such a shrinking violet that you let people abuse you and and your family and say nothing to them about it, then that is your problem. I have zero respect for people who just cower and act like a retailer is being gracious to give them the priveledge of spending their money there.
As a parent I have a responsibility to teach my kid to stand up for what is right and work through the proper channels. to fix things. You teach your kid to be a doormat if you want.
p.2 #13 · UPDATE: Whats with the anti photography hysteria?
Well, I've been reading through the original post and the responses. Disregarding the obviously rude responses, many of the others make a lot of sense. I just get the impression that you like to make mountains out of molehills and don't like to consider what others have to say if it doesn't fall in line with your position. In one of your responses, you stated that you considered notifying the media...for what? Because you and your wife made a conscious decision to drop your son off, alone, at a busy mall, and he was subsequently asked to leave because he may have been taking pictures? I lived in SW Fort Worth for quite a few years, and the Hulen Mall was/is the only mall-type mall in the area. There are a few new shopping centers along I-20 and Bryant-Irvin, but the Hulen Mall is the only "mall" (unless a new one has been added). Your kid's dilemma will not prevent any other kids from shopping at the mall, nor prevent other parents from dropping their own kids off. The mall security guy was only doing his job, but maybe a 'bit' over-zealously. However, in this litigious age, there's also corporate liability to consider when it concerns the safety of patrons, including that of your son, while on mall property. Taking pictures can be a 'distraction' to your son or others, and can quite possibly result in an injury to someone. You were angry, sent the mall a letter, they responded. The situation was a PITA, but you need to get over it.
