I don't think you were taken to the cleaners by Profoto. Rather, some were by the lack of validity in the measurements in this thread.
As for the D-Lite "coming out so well" if the test were conducted properly it would still come out OK, but not superior in efficiency and light output as these skewed tests imply.
Thanks Paul. See my comments above regarding my cleaners comment...
You'd really have to test each light with the same meter to make the comparison. I may test some of these units myself just to see if they they line up.
In any event, I don't think that Paul was disputing the fact that the Elinchrom are generally more efficient do to their internal reflector, which is a nice feature and something any manufacture could design into their product. I think he was taking exception to the result showing that the D-Lite 2's so close in output as the AB800.
Nor was he disputing the flash consistency results, saying only that his modeling lights were more consistent than the others.
Paul makes a nice light, but what's wrong with recognizing that there is always room for improvement and give credit where credit is due.?
I guess I should have known better than to throw rocks at a bee hive. I thought I learned that lesson when I was a kid.
Adding a sub reflector doesn't make a flash "more efficient", it still produces the same amount of lumenseconds over a narrower field. People don't seem to understand this. How sad to have a technical discussion where the participants don't understand the fundamental physics of what is being discussed.
We don't use a sub reflector because our lights offer bare bulb operation. If you want light concentration, put a reflector on. If you want a lot of concentration, use the 11" narrow angle reflector. It will be a lot brighter, but over a narrower field, but the efficiency and Lumenseconds remains the same. Efficiency (efficacy) of a flash is strictly determined by the electronics and flashtube, not by the reflectors you put on it.
As for not taking issue with stated D Lite efficiency, nothing could be further from the truth. I do take issue with this, as does Kevin in his tests (which argee with mine). These tests show a 160WS AB400 puts out a tad more light (Lumenseconds) than does a 200WS D-Lite 2.
I believe the author of the charts posted here actually used an AB400 and called it an AB 800. Again, see http://www.alienbees.com/compare.html for side by side comparisons with actual exposures that show the beam patterns.
khguitar098 wrote:
Quick Question Paul If you happen to check the board. I have several white lightning ultra 1800's...and I absolutely love them...most of the time I use just one though on location mixed with light.
I need something that recycles more quickly and am really considering the zues.
I currently have a 1200 watt pure sine wave inverter with a couple 18ah battery's for location work to use with the ultras.
Will the recycle time of the zues 1200 watt pack with one head recycle as quickly as if it were plugged into the wall?
so 1.2 seconds at 1,250 Ws?
1.2 seconds would be killer out on the field. 3 seconds of the ultra is killing me, although it gets the job done.
If it's actually a 1200W continuous inverter with 2400W intermittent you may come close - maybe 2 seconds. But an inverter that big typically requires more than an 18AH battery. The peak current draw of a Zeus 1250, or any other pack with similar power at similar cycle time, is on the order of 6000W.
Paul Buff wrote:
ABs came out in 2001 and quickly dominated the US market while creating a new market segment. D Lites came out six years later to compete. They have some improvements as one would expect, and some degraded points IMHO.
I've had an eye on the AB due to their price point and success in the US market, and with the current exchange rate they would be highly competitive over here in Europe. In fact, I would have been ready to buy a set -- if I could get them easily.
But when I acquired my flash kit a couple of weeks ago, I ended up with the D-Lite 4's as 1) they are readily available here (as opposed to the AB's) and 2) are of course natively supporting the 240V needed in Denmark, where I live. I considered importing them myself, but the overhead of shipping and imports tax/duty and VAT made it difficult, and support (if ever needed) and spare parts would be even more difficult. And bringing them back as carry on luggage when on a regular business travels to the US would also be challenging.
So for some of us, there is no real choice between the AB and the D-Lites... until you would consider the non-US market also, that is ;-)
I appreciate your sentiments. This is an ongoing issue. But trying to competitively serve the globe would require a major restructurig of our entire compny, setting up dealer networks and repair facilities, redesigning for different regulations, voltages, etc. All of this would comes at a significant price increase and change in customer service methods and would hurt our standing and success among domestic customers.
kkertz wrote:
Carmen, first of all, I'm not here to defend Paul or what angle he's disputing. Yesterday, when I looked at the chart that you linked to, I thought the AB800 was about a stop off. I know what I've metered in the past with a reflector at about that distance... so that's why I tested it. My measurement show it's off by a stop.
Kevin, Carmen, et al:
I know the gent in question who performed these tests quite well. To say that he is anal about the accuracy and methodology of his tests would be an understatement! The difference between measurements could possibly be explained by the fact that he has his studio walls painted flat grey colour, not white! This could conceivably affect the reading by up to one stop...
Other than that, I'm sure he would gladly answer your questions if you post them in the thread that these charts were part of.
I know the gent in question who performed these tests quite well. To say that he is anal about the accuracy and methodology of his tests would be an understatement! The difference between measurements could possibly be explained by the fact that he has his studio walls painted flat grey colour, not white! This could conceivably affect the reading by up to one stop...
Other than that, I'm sure he would gladly answer your questions if you post them in the thread that these charts were part of.
Being anal doesn't have anything to do with understanding and performing accurate and meaningful tests. These tests are simply not representative of the actual flashpower of the various units tested. They're more about reflector angles.
Also, a sub reflector is not an improvement - it is simply a method of narrowing the beam spread. It's actually a detriment in softboxes as it tends to produce a hot center pattern and also make bare bulb use less effective. It's a matter of use-preference.
PrintLabGuy wrote:
I own AB800s, an Elinchrom 400BX, 600RX, and now the DLite4s. I'm willing to run tests as well to verify the data initially run by TMR. What would be the ideal way to test these to make them truly valid?
Measurements taken 5 seconds after recycle light indicates full recycle
Meter at precise 6' in front of light head, both mid way between ceiling and floor
ISO 200. Measure 10 measurements at each full EV power level (no variator usage).
When possible, run 'with standard reflector' vs. 'with standard reflector', and also measure 'without standard reflector' vs. 'without standard reflector'
I used Minolta Autometer IV with hemisphere; TMR used his Sekonic 358.
BTW, Paul makes great lights, and has withstood the acid test of time, in product performance and customer satisfaction. One has a hard time finding fault with the degree that they address customer satisfaction issues, and a lot of 'larger' companies can probably learn a lesson from them. The point of the table was NOT to compare one vs. another, but to simply provide an assessment of any single unit to the gold standard...100% consistency of output. Given the wide divergence of features, performance, range of accessories, and price, a comparison is not valid, any more than one compares a Miata to an F150 pickup!
Yes you can try to compare max speed or 0-60 mph times, but to what point?! The point, to use an analogy, was to see if an indicated 60 mph was an honest 60mph, and if it could do it over and over and over with minimal variation.
Yes we did NOT both use identically calibrated meters in the same room...which is why a direct comparison is not realistic!
The difference between measurements could possibly be explained by the fact that he has his studio walls painted flat grey colour, not white! This could conceivably affect the reading by up to one stop...