Lawrence Lee wrote:
Are you saying that you have to wear gloves to use the cavicide wipes? So you just take the wipes and wipe the electronics and that will help sterilize the equipment? No need to wait a bit after the cleanup process in order to use the electronics?
The Cavicide isn't safe for one's skin (we've been told it's a possible carcinogen), but as soon as it dries (which is a quick process), the cleaned gear is good to go.
I am a physician but not a surgeon. I know for equipment that cannot be autoclaved, there is gas sterilization available. Gas sterilization should be safe for cameras, but a call to Canon would be order before you try it.
The point is likely moot however, as a sterile camera isn't necessary if it never comes in contact with the sterile field. More likely you will contaminate someone with your elbow as you move around the OR.
As an aside, as a medical student I rotated through a Plastic Surgery service with a prestigeous group in town. They were arrogant, uninterested in teaching, and used medical students for menial tasks only. As I had some experience with cameras, they would let me come into the OR to take pictures of their cases (Plastic Surgeons love before and after shots of their work). After 6 weeks of taking pictures but learning nothing I was pretty fed up, so at the end of the rotation I smuggled a Penthouse into the sterile prep room adjacent to the OR, and would intersperse pictures of centerfolds with shots of their surgery cases. I never did hear what happened when they got the processed film back, by that time I was long gone.
Lawrence Lee wrote:
Fred, I'm just curious, did you use a tripod to take those pictures? I would imagine the room to be quite dark to hand hold the camera and take sharp pictures?
There quite a lot of light in the OR (think about it!), and the apparent darkness in some shot only come from the contrast with the very strong light at the operation site! Of course I would never use a tripod, in these conditions you have to be very careful to never be in the way of anybody. In fact that was really my primary concerns before taking the shots.
And to respond to some of the posts, of course I discussed everything with the staff before getting in the OR (this is not really disneyland!) and obviously all the picture were taken from outside the sterile field. My point was more a technical one, since of course they are not familiar with the camera gear. And as many here have posted they are not too concerned about it as long as the gear is fairly clean (the surgeon did check my gear before - maybe more interested in the gear itself), and that I do not touch anything nor get in contact with anything or anybody, respect the rules and leave if they ask me to, etc.
And of course I had all the authorizations required (this is also standart procedures), as well as for posting the pictures (as long as you cannot recognize the patient - easy in these conditions).
dont forget to photograph the circulating and scrub nurse!!! You will get on their good side and they will bend over backwards for you in return. You can always get some nice shots from the anesthesia area. from the head of patient above the drapes over the surgical site- of course with a medium telephoto lens. As to sterilizing the camera, not necessary at all. Most of the o.r. equipment is not really that sterile. half of the o.r. personnel go to lunch in their scrubs! Ever seen an anesthesiologist wash their hands? lol
I have taken commercial television cameras into operating theatres many times. I have never been told they needed to be sterilised as long as they didn't touch anything. The only things which needed to be sterilised were the tripod feet. Keep your distance and don't touch anything and there should be no problem.
I am a perfusionist, working in the operating room, running a heart lung machine for over the past 30 years. No need to "sterilize" your equipment. You must be careful not to contaminate the sterile field. Particular care is needed when positioning "over" the field. The "rule" is not to come within a foot of the sterile field. As mentioned above, care is needed not to bump into someone's elbows, etc. Do not reach over the field without everyone at the table being aware of your position.
30 years ago there was a camera marketed for surgeons, I seem to recall it being called an "Alpha" camera with a fixed focal length Zeiss lens. It was placed in a housing which was able to be sterilized. The housing contained a ring light and extensions for the shutter button. It also had a right angle viewfinder built into the camera. Turned out it was difficult to work with and the surgeons never had to patience to fool with it in the middle of an operation. It quickly disappeared.
Good luck with your endeavor and watch out for the white balance, (having mixed light sources).
fredmaurer wrote:
I am a perfusionist, working in the operating room, running a heart lung machine for over the past 30 years. No need to "sterilize" your equipment. You must be careful not to contaminate the sterile field. Particular care is needed when positioning "over" the field. The "rule" is not to come within a foot of the sterile field. As mentioned above, care is needed not to bump into someone's elbows, etc. Do not reach over the field without everyone at the table being aware of your position.
Good luck with your endeavor and watch out for the white balance, (having mixed light sources)....Show more →
Well spoken, this advice along with those from the surgeons in the thread are right on (the others very entertaining!!). Your camera doesn't need to be sterile. I would check with the circulating nurse prior to the case to find out safe areas for you to be so to not interfere. Good luck!
I'm an infectious disease physician, and I've done some hospital infection control research and policy work in the last few years. First of all, you don't need true sterility -- but the camera needs to be cleaned, and should be at least disinfected.
100% ethanol will NOT sterilize anything. Alcohol-based disinfectants have 70% ethanol, and there are a number of spore-forming bacteria that 70% ethanol will not kill. Methanol will be more effective, but it might dissolve the plastic as well.
Your best bet would be to use one of the wipes with quaternary ammonium -- they are around in all hospitals, usually in a white tub with a red top. We use them to disinfect stethescopes after seeing MRSA and C. diff patients. I wouldn't treat the front element of your lens with any of these things, because it might affect the coatings.
Now, as said above and in a previous post, you don't need your camera to be truly 100% sterile if it is going to be a reasonable distance from the patient (i.e. more than a couple feet). In the OR the only things that are intended to be sterile are the sterile field itself and things that may touch the sterile field. The OR lights, right over the patient, are not sterile except for the handle cover used to move them around.
If I were you I'd get in touch with the absolute guru of this field, Prof William Rutala at the UNC-Chapel Hill School of Medicine. He's a nice guy with whom I've collaborated before, and he knows more about disinfection procedures than anyone else on earth.
As an anesthesiologist who takes pictures in the O.R., I can assure you I wash my hands and take infection control very seriously. I find a macro lens works best, and I use it with my twin-light flash. I get much better colors and control versus the O.R. lights. I have, on occasion, used a tripod, but typically hand hold. Some operating microscopes allow a digital output, although often low resolution compared to a good camera. Finally, I just wipe my camera off with a cloth if I am not going to be over the sterile field. If I need to be over the sterile field, I clean the lens with standard lens cleaner and place the whole system in a sterile bag with the lens just barely "peaking" out (alcohol clean this portion only). This is, in fact, how the operating room microscopes are set up.
Roy Pertchik wrote:
I think you could put it inside 2 zip lock bags and then put it in your kitchen freezer over night. Thaw slowly, and bring to the hospital, remove the outer bag as part of your cleaning up prep, and take it out of the second bag inside the operating room. I'm just guessing. I know freezing kills bacteria, but shouldn't kill the camera.
Although I can't provide any insight to this matter, I will say that freezing does not kill bacteria; only excessive heat will kill bacteria. Freezing and/or cold-storage will reduce or stop the production of most bacteria.
That is correct, freezing is not effective for sterilization. Heat, actually, is not very effective either unless it's very hot for a very long time, or if it's under high pressure. Dry ovens take a very long time to sterilize as compared with autoclaves, which use heat and pressure.
I totally agree with this. If you do not understand sterility and do not have a clinical background you really should not be posting here. If anything your opinions could be counterproductive.
The OP should be seeking advice from the surgical support team who will readily tell him what his boundaries are likely to be with immunocompromised patients like this.
fourfa wrote:
seriously guys, if you don't work in a hospital or in other sterile environments, please don't post on this thread. your guesses are worth nothing and just confuse the issue.
I am a microbiologist, and I can tell you that there is NO practical way to sterilize a camera. You can sanitize, but you cannot guarantee sterility with virtually any chemical method. Most of the equipment that would be used by a surgeon is sterilized either by autoclaving (steam) or by radiation.
On the other hand, the surgeons themselves are not sterile, so how "sterile" is sterile in their eyes.
DrPablo wrote:
That is correct, freezing is not effective for sterilization. Heat, actually, is not very effective either unless it's very hot for a very long time, or if it's under high pressure. Dry ovens take a very long time to sterilize as compared with autoclaves, which use heat and pressure.
Actually, it is the moist heat that makes autoclaves effective. Although the pressure does help reduce air pockets that can hinder the process. You are correct, dry heat is not nearly as effective.
Roy Pertchik wrote:
I think you could put it inside 2 zip lock bags and then put it in your kitchen freezer over night. Thaw slowly, and bring to the hospital, remove the outer bag as part of your cleaning up prep, and take it out of the second bag inside the operating room. I'm just guessing. I know freezing kills bacteria, but shouldn't kill the camera.
Please do not spread wrong information. Freezing does NOT kill most bacteria. Why do you think using ice from contaminated water is not smart?
John Power wrote:
Well, one thing this thread has told us is who to send PMs to if we feel sick
Why PM, why not a public post ?
We should never underestimate the keen erudition which photographers can bring to bear on just about any topic of science and arts.
? lol
