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Archive 2008 · Canon Forum Atmosphere

  
 
claudermilk
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p.2 #1 · Canon Forum Atmosphere


Shane Canfield wrote:
I thought I remembered this post...all of this went to hell in a handbasket! The Canon forum is terrible right now. There seems to be a little group of very vocal Nikon shooters and 'Canon shooters that hate Canon and won't switch to Nkon' sucking up huge amounts of time and bandwidth with tons of both little and big chips on their shoulders. The thing is turning into DP and it is a shame having been an FM member for so long...a small minority can really screw things up.

What is odd is that this does not happen on the
...Show more

Funny how fast things change, eh? It is pretty sad that these children are ruining it for the rest of us. Like always, I'll just either skip out of the thread & move one or find some amusement in the extremely childish "Canon is out to screw me" attitude shown and wait for things to blow over--again.



Jan 30, 2008 at 11:42 AM
brainiac
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p.2 #2 · Canon Forum Atmosphere


Alistair Watson wrote:
+1 from me on that!


I quite often see these "+1" attempts at peer moderation. I have spoken to Fred about introducing a slashdot style peer-group moderation system. It could be very simple, with vote up/down links which record the vote in the background. It could simply be one vote per user per comment,or it could have varied voting power based on length of membership and/or number of posts, or even the popularity of your posts, like slashdot karma. Does anybody think that would help the situation in the Canon forum?

I also think removing the ability to delete posts, or perhaps allowing other members to undelete any deleted post might improve the sense of accountability.

Edited on Jan 31, 2008 at 05:36 AM



Jan 31, 2008 at 05:34 AM
John Patrick
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p.2 #3 · Canon Forum Atmosphere


No, Brainiac, I don't like the concept of up/down voting. It really nets you nothing in the long run other than people attempting to score higher.

What would be useful is if a post is deleted, put something like "POST DELETED" in there, so we can figure out that there was a post deleted. Having moderators able to undelete may or may not be useful, but all members? No.

Speaking of moderators... the Canon forum REALLY needs another moderator, and some of the other forums where they have one, the moderator is seldom seen.

Is there a reason there are so few moderators? Generally, if you have an active forum, having several moderators per specific forum and a couple global moderators makes things go smoother. Heck, adding a moderator to most forums would reduce the load on the current mod, making it easier for all around.

Fred, if you're looking for moderator volunteers, all you need to do is ask, and I'm sure many of the long-standing members here would volunteer, myself included.

John



Jan 31, 2008 at 01:27 PM
Timm
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p.2 #4 · Canon Forum Atmosphere


So is this why there are Canon-specific posts all over the the non-Canon-specific boards? I mean, doesn't "Post Pics of Canon In ACTION" seem like it should be on the Canon-mount SLR board? Or questions about the best lenses for 20D or 5D or whatever? Shouldn't complaints about the quality of the Canon-Mount SLR board be aired there? Did I just forget that this is entirely a Canon-specific forum that has partitioned one or two little ghettos for users of other brands?

Back to touching up my ugly black lenses with shoe polish....



Jan 31, 2008 at 04:04 PM
csm
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p.2 #5 · Canon Forum Atmosphere


Timm wrote:
So is this why there are Canon-specific posts all over the the non-Canon-specific boards? I mean, doesn't "Post Pics of Canon In ACTION" seem like it should be on the Canon-mount SLR board? Or questions about the best lenses for 20D or 5D or whatever? Shouldn't complaints about the quality of the Canon-Mount SLR board be aired there? Did I just forget that this is entirely a Canon-specific forum that has partitioned one or two little ghettos for users of other brands?

Back to touching up my ugly black lenses with shoe polish....


I don't know what the point of this post is, but this is a Forum about general FM Forum (and Misc) related issues hence it is in exactly the right place. And there are plenty of complaint posts over in the Canon forum...you can read them.

What is the little ghettos comments suposed to mean...snide comment I assume.

When you want to discuss larger FM related issues, which this is, then this is the place.



Jan 31, 2008 at 04:52 PM
Timm
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p.2 #6 · Canon Forum Atmosphere


Shane:

I'm trying not to get into a flame-thing here, but in what way does a problem on the Canon gear board constitute a forum-wide problem?

Is the predominance of Canon-specific posts on other gear and technique boards a symptom of the climate at the Canon-gear board? I guess I may have just answered my own question.



Jan 31, 2008 at 05:24 PM
csm
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p.2 #7 · Canon Forum Atmosphere


This post was about the Forum itself...not about Canon Gear. It is related to how FM works, not how Canon Gear works.

I'm not addressing 'Canon gear posts in the wrong forum.' That does happen a lot all over FM, some places more than others. You won't see a Sports post in Landscape, but for example over in Sports, they get general gear questions all the time and they get moved to the apppriate gear board. In Canon, we get posts about things like tripods, ballheads, bags...which don't get moved but should. In the Canon Forum, there seems to be rash of posts about Nikon products by Nikon shooters who's intent is what? To stir up trouble I guess. Sometimes a Nikon gear topic can be related to Canon of course, but that is not what the trolls do.

Anyway, there seem to be two issues here. What is the purpose of the Forum & Misc board (which we talked about) and why do so many people post in the incorrect forums. Can't answer this latter. Some just don't know any better, some don't care, and some are trolls. But posts in the wrong forum is not limited to the Canon Forum, it happens all over.




Jan 31, 2008 at 06:02 PM
Alistair Watson
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p.2 #8 · Canon Forum Atmosphere


brainiac wrote:
I quite often see these "+1" attempts at peer moderation. I have spoken to Fred about introducing a slashdot style peer-group moderation system. It could be very simple, with vote up/down links which record the vote in the background. It could simply be one vote per user per comment,or it could have varied voting power based on length of membership and/or number of posts, or even the popularity of your posts, like slashdot karma. Does anybody think that would help the situation in the Canon forum?

I also think removing the ability to delete posts, or perhaps allowing other members to
...Show more

I quite like the idea of removing the ability to delete posts but those deleted posts could be visible to mods. I know Fred does dip into the Canon forum from time to time but I still believe that having another 1 or 2 more active moderators would greatly help in fostering a greater sense of 'hmmm if I wrote x then this thread could get locked or I might get banned'. Perhaps 1 US timezone and 1 Europe timezone mod might help, at least as a trial.

FM is still a great place to be a member and yes around PMA time there is alot of whinging and yes from time to time people do make their way over here from other forums a la DPReview but on the whole I think it runs pretty well.



Feb 01, 2008 at 05:35 AM
brainiac
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p.2 #9 · Canon Forum Atmosphere


The suggestion about moderators is a very good one, but I have seen many people complaining about moderators, and moderators sometimes get a lot of flack. They are also human, and they err. They have to do a lot of work to keep track of what is going on in busy fora. In an ideal world a socratic moderator would do a perfect job, but what we are seeing here is that this ideal way of doing things is not happening. FM isn't a big site, but I am sure we would all like it to grow, harmoniously, so it would do well to look carefully at how very longstanding fora, like slashdot, handle this thorny problem. A well designed peer moderation system massively reduces the work of moderators, who then don't need to monitor every thread.

> No, Brainiac, I don't like the concept of up/down voting. It really nets you nothing in the long run other than people attempting to score higher.

Guess that's a -1 then ;-)

People scoring higher is good. That means others liked what they read enough to bother to vote for it. These fora thrive on the invaluable advice of experienced people who kindly share their knowledge. I don't believe trolls, flamers, and bores will achieve high scores, so high scores will mean valuable content, by consensus. Like slashdot, you can always read at -1 if you feel the low scorers have a lot to contribute.

I have written forum code in the past where the contrast of comment text from the background increased or decreased according to score. That makes it very easy to see high scoring posts at a glance, while still providing full access to the lower scores for the interested. In my view it could work very well, increase the quality of content, even in the Canon forum, speed up the server by attenuating comment noise, and especially reduce the number of posts which say simply 'I agree/don't agree'.

An attractive side effect of a simple +1/-1 vote per comment per member would be that each thread would have a net score. Flamewars would probably end up with negative net scores. Tenacious and interesting threads would probably end up with highly positive net scores, even if there were disagreement. Net thread score would be another helpful indicator of the value of a thread alongside number of comments and number of views.

To those who object to this scheme being implemented, I would like to ask, how can it detract? After all, nothing that is here now would disappear, with the possible exception that there might be a slight reduction in the already few abusive, ill-humoured, boring or uninformative. Remember, nobody has to vote, and nobody need heed the scores.

Edited on Feb 01, 2008 at 07:15 AM



Feb 01, 2008 at 07:04 AM
Alistair Watson
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p.2 #10 · Canon Forum Atmosphere


Interesting concept Mr Briane. This is about the only forum I visit so while I have heard of this 'karma' thing, how does it work? I guess what you are proposing is that we have a total posts number plus a karma number.

So if someone writes 'oh I need a lens for a motorsport event, what should I get' and I write something which people agree with they can increase my karma man! Then someone with good karma is known as a good poster and someone with a poor karma is a nitwit?



Feb 01, 2008 at 08:08 AM
brainiac
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p.2 #11 · Canon Forum Atmosphere


>I have heard of this 'karma' thing, how does it work?

I don't necessarily think we need a system as complex as slashdot's karma system, although you have to ask why slashdot settled on that. Your karma is invisible. You gain karma when others mod up your comments. Karma allows you to mod other people's comments. When you mod other comments, you use up your karma. That's it really. Slashdot does have a mod test where you go through a series of comments and are asked to mod them, after which the system decides whether you were taking it seriously or not. That allows the site operators to have some influence on the sort of people they want to be moderating.

One member one vote is another option. It almost worked in the West.



Feb 01, 2008 at 08:18 AM
Alistair Watson
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p.2 #12 · Canon Forum Atmosphere


Thanks for the explanation Richard.

I tell you what, propose a method of how you see it working and lets go from there. Anything that helps root out trolls et al is surely a good thing.



Feb 01, 2008 at 08:24 AM
EltonTeng
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p.2 #13 · Canon Forum Atmosphere


Shane Canfield wrote:
virtually nill of actual Canon Gear talk, and what there is, is disrupted by trolls.



I long for the 85/1.8 v 85/1.2 threads.

Seriously, I don't know if grading/karma/voting systems will work. We can certain try it, but it gives trolls/cliques something else to argue about. Worse yet, they can use it as a weapon.

I like the removal of delete/edit functions. There was a "well-respected" Landscape member who was extra nasty if you ever crossed him. He would delete his nasty words once it appears that there were more people disagreed with his words.



Feb 01, 2008 at 11:02 AM
DanBrown
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p.2 #14 · Canon Forum Atmosphere


EltonTeng wrote:
I like the removal of delete/edit functions. There was a "well-respected" Landscape member who was extra nasty if you ever crossed him. He would delete his nasty words once it appears that there were more people disagreed with his words.


But if you use the "quote" feature in a reply (like I am doing), the poster's comments will be retained even if they delete the post.



Feb 01, 2008 at 11:20 AM
brainiac
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p.2 #15 · Canon Forum Atmosphere


What do you mean provocative Take that back!


Feb 01, 2008 at 11:58 AM
Soenda
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p.2 #16 · Canon Forum Atmosphere


Please don't remove the edit function. I do my best to write in proper English and express myself as well as I can, but sometimes I goof. A typo or misspelling slips through. I set high store by the ability to be able to go back and edit a post a day or two later, if it takes that long for me to notice something.

When you do that, and someone else has added a comment in the mean time, FM does show the "Edited on (date) message." That would indicate that something had been changed.

So there are two ways to prevent people from playing fast and loose with past comments.

1. Responders can use the quote function, which cannot be altered by the OP
2. Any edit leaves tracks.

I'd hate to lose the ability to fix errors because a third measure was needed for mischief that isn't very common in the first place.



Feb 01, 2008 at 03:46 PM
invalid2
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p.2 #17 · Canon Forum Atmosphere


brainiac wrote:
I quite often see these "+1" attempts at peer moderation. I have spoken to Fred about introducing a slashdot style peer-group moderation system.

I also think removing the ability to delete posts, or perhaps allowing other members to undelete any deleted post might improve the sense of accountability.


I read the "+1" posts as "I agree with", and not moderation.

Some other online forums allow modification and deletion of posts for some time, but they are then locked (this is independent of the thread activity). Some of this seems to require more work from the moderator(s) for proper functioning.

I like being able to delete or edit posts - but I tend to only delete things soon after creation (~5m). Sometimes I will reread one of my posts (maybe after someone else has commented) and realize that it is unclear, or does not say what I wanted, so I will then go back and fix it, but carefully, so that the what I said and what I added make sense.

Would it be difficult for you to add revision control to the forum - maybe being able to view each thread and its edit history?



Feb 01, 2008 at 05:58 PM
EltonTeng
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p.2 #18 · Canon Forum Atmosphere


DanBrown wrote:
But if you use the "quote" feature in a reply (like I am doing), the poster's comments will be retained even if they delete the post.


Correct. That was what we did, unless the poster deleted the profanity first.



Feb 01, 2008 at 11:49 PM
EOS20
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p.2 #19 · Canon Forum Atmosphere


Well I've noticed the Canon board has become a place full flame wars, bickering and simply rude and sarcastic comments! It certainly hasn't improved, not by a long shot!! I've been spending most of my time on FM in the Canon board, and over the last few months I have noticed it becoming more and more like the DPR forums! It's got the the point I don't visit FM much anymore (Well not over the last few couple of months) and I don't contribute much anymore when I do visit (Been mainly just lurking).

I have also ventured over into the Nikon board, And they seem much more civilized and actually talk about, and help others rather then fight with each other! The Nikon board resembles the "Old FM" while the Canon board is becoming more and more like DPR forums everyday!!

BTW who is moderating the Canon board these days?




Edited on Feb 02, 2008 at 01:45 AM



Feb 02, 2008 at 01:43 AM
brainiac
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p.2 #20 · Canon Forum Atmosphere


The problem is there's no clear line in the sand between a small edit and removal of all text in a message, so I don't think we can easily solve the troll-deleter type behaviour.

I do think that some kind of accountability might improve things in the Canon forum without the need for excessive moderation. I am going to talk to Fred about all this. It would be very easy to install a simple voting system with a view to developing a more karma-like system in the future. Maybe then this karma will run over their dogma ;-)



Feb 02, 2008 at 08:33 AM
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