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Archive 2007 · Exclusivity for Youth League...?
  
 
leewoolery
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p.2 #1 · Exclusivity for Youth League...?



An exclusive photographic contract is a problem for the photographer (s)excluded.

It's a major problem if you've signed and/or negotiated that exclusive deal and didn't live up to your end of the bargain.

Lee Woolery
Speedshot Action Photography
www.speedshotphoto.com
Dec 27, 2007 at 08:18 AM
MDteX
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p.2 #2 · Exclusivity for Youth League...?


Steve Ickes wrote:
One more thing about contracts . . . they hold each party accountable. That's usually a word amateurs or part time wannabe's don't like. Everyone wants to claim to be a "professional" until the **** hits the fan. Without a contract you're free to run away, hide, and peddle your mediocre skills elsewhere. With a contract you, as a photographer, must stand before your client, be accountable, and ultimately work your ass off to make good on your agreement. There is no where to hide with a contract. So please for those of you who don't willingly put forth...Show more →

There is a difference between a contract and an exclusive contract. If a league signs a contract with multiple photogs that doesn't release any of them from living up to what they signed. From my point of view an exclusive contract does nothing for the league. Kick-back money can come from either. That is coming from a youth sports board member.
Dec 27, 2007 at 09:28 AM
dmwierz
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p.2 #3 · Exclusivity for Youth League...?


Seems to me a contract like this should be constructed to be a win-win for both "sides". In the World of carrots and sticks. I prefer more carrots and less sticks.

For the league:

Carrots:


  1. High level of assurance all their teams and players will be covered - wannabe's only shoot teams and games they want to
  2. Ability to share in the success/sales of earnings from photography products sold
  3. Pro-level behavior
  4. Shooters will be insured and "hold harmless" the league and players/coaches in the event of anything happening with the photographers on the field
  5. Reliability - we will show up when we say we will
  6. Professional customer support - if anything goes wrong, we will fix it. Also, we will be easily reachable
  7. Rapid turnaround of images - even in the busiest of weekend, images will be available ASAP
  8. The photographer will hire as many shooters as necesarry to cover the events (and the photographer will pay these shooters - not the league)
  9. The delivered product will be first-rate
  10. The contract photographer develops and nurtures a relationship with the parents and league officials - gets to know what the league really wants, and what the parents expect.


For the league:

Sticks


  1. The league is required to use only the contracted photographer/company and pay this company's prices


For the photographer:

Carrots:


  1. High level of assurance that only he/she and his/her shooters will have preferred shooting positions - nobody stepping in front of the official shooters, or otherwise interfering.
  2. Ability to hire and pay additional photographers to cover all teams as required - much easier to do if you have assurance you won't be fighting other companies
  3. Ability to promote the contracted company without confusing the parents and other league participants with many different people approaching them with "pro" photography
  4. The contract photographer develops and nurtures a relationship with the parents and league officials - gets to know what the league really wants, and what the parents expect.
  5. Ability to fairly price their product to earn a fair profit, without being undercut


For the photographer:

Sticks


  1. The photographer must invest as required to adequately cover the league, with no guarantee of sales or profit
  2. The photographer will carry the legal liability if anything where to go wrong (mitigated by insurance)
  3. The photographer will probably spend many evenings and countless hours meeting with the league and officials to solicit and achieve the contract.
  4. The photographer will spend any required time in post-processing to ensure the product is first rate, again with no guarantee of sales or profit


I think, all things considered, developing a close relationship with your customer is always a good idea. Sometimes, there is give and take, and part of this involves making a bi-directional contract which formalizes the commitments each party makes to the other. This is business, and happens all the time. As Lee mentioned, the only party for whom a contract is an issue is the person who is not the contracted company. I'd say "Better luck next year - bring your A game, and may the better man/woman win"
Dec 27, 2007 at 09:46 AM
leewoolery
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p.2 #4 · Exclusivity for Youth League...?


I never use the term "kick-back" when negotiating with a league or school." It sounds criminal and underhanded.

In my contracts and agreements, this is called "vendor fee" or "percentage of sales" which is a perfectly legitimate way of doing business. Even if it's an exclusive contract, everything is above board.

All of the leagues, schools, events, fairs, festival or organizations I deal with can use that money to offset the costs of operating...whether it's a clothing, food or any other type of vendor.

About the only time I hear that term "kick-back" is when another photographer feels snubbed or cheated and didn't get a photo contract or is excluded from shooting action for a league, school or event.


Lee Woolery
Speedshot Action Photography
www.speedshotphoto.com
Dec 27, 2007 at 09:51 AM
mlane
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p.2 #5 · Exclusivity for Youth League...?


Ryder -

I'm on both sides of the issue here. I shoot sports, but have to put the camera down from the second week of June until the end of July. I run a district of 14 local Little Leagues. Even though the games may be played on school or park fields, the local league is responsible to the parks, schools and their players. They can ask anyone to leave a facilty during the time they are leasing the sites.

I had one instance where someone thought since they were on a public, when asked to leave, they decided they did not have to. Meanwhile, the game was stopped because this person would not leave. When police arrived, he was issued a tresspass AND disturbing the peace citation (because the event was halted due to his actions).

The resourse Paul wrote up for shooting LL is right on. During tournaments, you need to check with the DA for permission. The DA before me would not allow photographers at all, except credentialed media. I now have a contract with a sports photographer (I'm too busy running the tournaments and it borders a conflict of interest for my company to shoot). I require that he gets all levels and at least 2 games of every team, the photos are on the site for a limited time, and he honors any request of a parent NOT to post on the web. LL also has regulations on making sure anyone with continuous contact with the players, they must be background checked. I require the company to provide me with information on all shooters so I can conduct a nationwide background check. If a shooter says no, then he can not have them at any of my games. If information comes back with crimes against children, they can not be at any of the games.

Basically, IMO, with child sports, the adults running the program have the responsibility to protect the kids in their program.

Mark
Dec 27, 2007 at 11:02 AM
Steve Ickes
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p.2 #6 · Exclusivity for Youth League...?





Well, as a sports board member if you feel that you get nothing from an exclusive contract then so be it, don't sign. In my case exclusivity is for T&I, special events, and tournaments only and each one is negotiated separately. Game coverage is an added service I provide with T&I contract.

Quite possibly you see no benefit to your league because you've never had the experience of working with a "professional" photographer who is willing to work his/her butt off for very little money in order to provide you with which essentially ends up being a comprehensive online gallery for your league. If I had a dollar for every compliment, comment, and thanks I've gotten for "the great pictures online" I'd never have to sell a thing. But do those same compliments put money in the bank? Not really. So I don't really know the specifics of your league but I can tell you each league I shoot for if nothing else, gets a really sweet gallery of professionally photographed images for parents, kids, and relatives to look through. And based on the number of hits I get, they are looking. And what exactly do these leagues pay for this benefit? Absolutely nothing.

Beyond the items already mentioned other benefits I've provided in the past: taken pictures at practice sessions and giving the league president a disk of images, volunteering my time to help with concession and even lining fields, shooting the "special needs/disabled programs" and providing them with images for free, taking last minute requests to shoot specific games, and special products and pricing for contracted members. Above all else, any league that I contract with gets my exclusive attention over anyone who doesn't.

Now in the end if none of that matters to you then that's fine. As for me, my clients appreciate the extra effort and the time I've taken to build a relationship with them as opposed to simply "snapping and selling". So in your thinking, a sports league really owes nothing to the photographer for all their efforts and willingness to work hard on behalf of your league? As a coach and program director for 20 years I've dealt with league boards for many years. There does seem to be a growing attitude with many leagues that they hold all the cards - "we have something you want so what are you going to give us?"
Dec 27, 2007 at 11:13 AM
Gerry Szarek
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p.2 #7 · Exclusivity for Youth League...?


Lee said >>-No league or school I've ever dealt with has prevented any parent from photographing their own sons or daughters while playing sports. Some will restrict them to only shooting from the stands, bleachers or behind the fences...but never denying the right to photograph...but as James Broome stated won't allow them to sell or solicit business.

Unfortunately not true, my daughter does synchronized swimming and at major events they will not allow even a point and shoot, never mind my telephoto lens on the 5D (I typically don't use a flash). I think this is horrible, my solution is to photograph the dress rehearsals at the home pool and only buying if something happens (which means almost never). This makes for very unhappy parents, which means no sales.

One last thing, while my son was playing LL I was shooting him, the team, the other team (no pro's around at all). A parent came up to me and need help with their new DSLR (nikon D1xx something or other) so I help them set it up, and tell the guy remember to pay attention to the batter, pitcher and fielders. So here I am kneeling down by the 3rd base line (on the spectators side of the line), the guy is standing behind me talking to another parent not paying attention, a ball gets sent over my head and nails this guy. Luckily we had a doctor on the side line and the ball wasn't going to fast for his sake. This is what boards worry about.

Gerry
Dec 27, 2007 at 11:50 AM
MDteX
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p.2 #8 · Exclusivity for Youth League...?


Steve Ickes wrote:
Well, as a sports board member if you feel that you get nothing from an exclusive contract then so be it, don't sign. In my case exclusivity is for T&I, special events, and tournaments only and each one is negotiated separately. Game coverage is an added service I provide with T&I contract.

Quite possibly you see no benefit to your league because you've never had the experience of working with a "professional" photographer who is willing to work his/her butt off for very little money in order to provide you with which essentially ends up being a comprehensive online gallery...Show more →

I applaud you for helping at the concession stand and lining fields but I thought you were there to take photos? But we take all the help we can get too!

I guess in your view we do have an exclusive since we only have 1 vendor do the T&I. But that does not mean another can't do action shots. But they must come before the board and present their case.

The league may not hold all the cards but they do have lots of options since they are the customer--not the other way around. The league has several people trying to get the T&I contract each season. It is the same as any other "business"--vendors try to sell their products to the customer. We pick what is the best for the league and that does not mean the cheapest or the one with the best "vendor fee" as Lee stated. Anyone is willing to go above and beyond as you do will definitely get more consideration than a "drive by shooter" that is snapping and selling as you state. That is a great marketing tool on your part!

Lee---I know vendor fee or rebate sounds better than kick-back but we know it is the same thing, just one is PC. I've never been very PC.
Dec 27, 2007 at 12:18 PM
Mark Peters
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p.2 #9 · Exclusivity for Youth League...?


dmwierz wrote:
For the league:

Carrots:


  1. High level of assurance all their teams and players will be covered - wannabe's only shoot teams and games they want to
  2. Rapid turnaround of images - even in the busiest of weekend, images will be available ASAP
  3. The photographer will hire as many shooters as necesarry to cover the events (and the photographer will pay these shooters - not the league)
  4. The delivered product will be first-rate
  5. The contract photographer develops and nurtures a relationship with the parents and league officials - gets to know what the league really wants, and what the parents expect.



That is certainly not my personal experience - not even close.

The IHSA has an exclusive contract to cover IHSA finals. My son participated in three seperate such events. Twice in team dual wrestling and the 3A state championship in football. In wrestling in 2005 they were eliminated in the first round - which the vendor didn't even bother shooting. In 2006 they took third. They had one shooter covering four mats. In football 2006, he played both sides of the ball the entire game. Total number of images where he could be considered the subject and in focus - ZERO.

The quality provided is horrible, the customer service worse. Galleries are up for very limited times, not indexed in any manner - thus requiring you to look through over 1,000 images just to see if they happen to have an image of your kid, etc.

They don't cover every event, let alone every participant. Their day rates are not high enough to attract high end talent. They have limited gear that is shared across the entire organization. I've watched their shooters at softball state finals shooting with a 70-200 with 2x tc because "the good glass" was being used in Wisconsin.

It often appears to me that the "action" shots are used to drive traffic to the larger group shot packages. Almost as if the T&I company had to throw in one game of action shots to get the business.

I've also read on this very board from members who use such exclusive contracts but admittedly don't cover every event - though they expect their exclusivity to hold for those events as well. Seems they are guilty of the very "shoot what they want to" behaviour you ascribe to the "wannabe's".

I've read on this very board of members who expect boards to restrict parents from giving away images.




I'll again state my belief that the only party that truly benefits from such exclusivity is the event shooter themself. All of the "carrots" you list above can be achieved contractually without granting exclusivity.
Dec 27, 2007 at 12:33 PM
dmwierz
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p.2 #10 · Exclusivity for Youth League...?


Mark,

It seems to me your beef is with the company (many of us know who they are) and NOT the contract. They produced an inferior product (I shoot HS sports in Illinois - a LOT of HS sports) and it seems THIS is what bugs you. Had they produced a top-quality product, at a fair price, would you still be so ticked off? Nothing you state in your argument against exclusive contracts has anything to do with the contract, really.

Besides, the IHSA finals are the only events covered by this contract, and this impacts a very small percentage of HS athletes and schools statewide. The remainder of the HS sports season is fair game.

All of the "carrots" you list above can be achieved contractually without granting exclusivity.

Good luck recruiting pro-level companies to shoot youth events "on spec", because that sounds like exactly what you are describing. Do you honestly believe reputable companies will provide:


  1. High level of assurance all their teams and players will be covered - wannabe's only shoot teams and games they want to
  2. Ability to share in the success/sales of earnings from photography products sold
  3. Pro-level behavior
  4. Shooters will be insured and "hold harmless" the league and players/coaches in the event of anything happening with the photographers on the field
  5. Reliability - we will show up when we say we will
  6. Professional customer support - if anything goes wrong, we will fix it. Also, we will be easily reachable
  7. Rapid turnaround of images - even in the busiest of weekend, images will be available ASAP
  8. The photographer will hire as many shooters as necesarry to cover the events (and the photographer will pay these shooters - not the league)
  9. The delivered product will be first-rate
  10. The contract photographer develops and nurtures a relationship with the parents and league officials - gets to know what the league really wants, and what the parents expect.


Without some commitment from the customer on exclusivity, you're gonna get what you pay for, unfortunately. I think exclusivity is a small price to pay considering what you get in return.

The fact that your personal experience didn't provide the "carrots" I outlined doesn't negate the value of these things. All it does is indict the contracted company.

How many companies will commit to hiring enough top-quality shooters to provide adequate coverage without some assurance that every GWC will not be allowed on the fields to produce competing products for free? How many companies will invest in the equipment, the infrastructure, pay the liability insurance fees, perform the requisite editing, etc, without any contractual protection? Not many, at least not the types you would want covering your kids.

To the parents out there who are angry at not being able to photograph their own kids, I understand your frustration, and as Lee said, have never heard of anyone being prohibited from photographing from the stands (or on the public side of the fence, etc). However, recognize that more than likely, the person who is contracted to shoot that one event has probably had to commit (if they are any good, that is) to being at many, many events and has had to commit time and money to the entire league of youth organization - not just your kid's team or for that particular event.

When your kids yearbook or annual school photos are taken, would you feel it's your right to bring your camera to the session and stand next to the photographer (Using his studio lights, backgrounds, stools, benches, etc) to take your own shots for free? Or worse, would you think it's OK to stand there and take shots of ALL the kids and give them away to each parent? I doubt many would do this, but how is this hypothetical any different than what one who wants to photograph a team and give the shots away, knowing full well there is an authorized, contracted pro shooting the event?
Dec 27, 2007 at 01:38 PM
Mark Peters
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p.2 #11 · Exclusivity for Youth League...?


Dennis,

As you have read on SS, I have issues with the contract in general. And yes, it does have to do with the contract because that contract only benefitted two parties - neither of which was the athlete or their parents (who ultimately pay for everything.) As I've said before do I blame the event company? Nope, but I do hold the counterparty to a higher standard. They have a responsibility to represent the interests of their constituency - all of them. In the case I mentioned the contract certainly did not guarantee the benefits you listed.


When an event shooter obtains an exclusive agreement and they don't provide complete coverage, I see a problem with the arrangement. If someone has such a contract to cover an entire league but only covers 1 or 2 games by each team then I'm failing to see where the parents are benefiting. Yet, such shooters have on this very forum stated they expect their exclusive rights to hold - even for games they don't cover for whatever reason.

I do believe there is a difference between truly private organizations and those which by their nature and membership are virtually public entities (the IHSA falls in the latter.) These entities (park districts, school districts) need to do a better job of ensuring that their constituencies are properly represented..

BTW - doesn't MaxPreps operate without exclusivity?

It just seems that almost every discussion around covering a school/event immediately leads to a call for exclusivity. When a parent isn't allowed to bring in their own shooter to ensure that they have the coverage they desire of their own kid and don't have to rely on what may or may not be provided by an event company, I have an issue with it. I also have an issue when one entity attempts to enjoin another from having their own arrangements - i.e. if a high school has a "team photographer" who provides coverage tailored to that school and they are prevented from covering events at another location due to such an agreemetn.

I will caveat this by indicating, that I have much less of an issue for an individual, privately sponsored tournament than I do for a season.

Also, I do not have a problem with providing for an even playing field. If a school/park district wants to require all shooters accessing the sidelines to meet certain minimum requirements, I have no issue. I don't believe everyone has an unrestricted right to the sidelines., I don't hav If they want to provide certain benefits (i.e. links on their web page, banners, announcements, etc.) in exchange for certain considerations, I have no issue.

To date, my experience with event shooters in my areas downstate (which is more than just the one I noted above), hasn't shown me that they are following the guidelines you've laid out.
Dec 27, 2007 at 03:26 PM
Steve Ickes
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p.2 #12 · Exclusivity for Youth League...?


MDtex wrote:

I applaud you for helping at the concession stand and lining fields but I thought you were there to take photos? But we take all the help we can get too!

I am there to take photos but I am also building a relationship, a friendship, and trust. My business was set up to serve the community in which I live and that's how I conduct my business at the youth level.


I guess in your view we do have an exclusive since we only have 1 vendor do the T&I. But that does not mean another can't do action shots. But they must come before the board and present their case.

That certainly is your choice and it's really how I got my foot in the door. All teams already had contracts for T&I so I got approval to shoot games (non exclusive by the way). Now that I have the T&I, part of my service is to provide game coverage. Where I live no other T&I photo company offers that. They come in shoot the posed stuff and then you never hear from them again until contract renewal. No where in my contract does it stipulate that the league must prohibit anyone else from shooting the games (parents! snap away) but there is a section which does address the selling of images by any other parties other than the officially recognized and sanctioned league photographer . . . me. If someone is peddling images on the side and the league has no knowledge of it they obviously cannot be held accountable. However, if they knowingly allow it to occur then they are breaking the agreement that we discussed in detail and willingly signed. If they don't like my terms they are more than free to ask me to amend the contract or simply not choose to use my services. I, in turn, am free to agree or walk away.

I will certainly compromise and negotiate to a point. However, I will not allow someone else to completely dictate how I operate and to ultimately effect my bottom line. Obviously there are people on this board who have enough money to purchase pro-level equipment, pay for web hosting, purchase expensive software, and give of their time all in the name of good will and charity. Sorry to say, I am not one of those. If I invest $20k in my business and spend time away from my family then I expect to recoup that investment and then some. Call me a greedy capitalist if you will but I'm sure there's a few of us here. If you're in it to make money, then you're a business if you're not then call it a hobby and stop presenting yourself as a professional.

My biggest problem and obviously one of the biggest problems in this business today are the folks who don't really care if they make any money or recoup the cost of their investment. For them playing the role of SI sports photog is fun and they get a jolt out of showing everyone their pictures. I've found that parents don't look at an image of their child and think "oh my that is the most amazing photo I've ever seen. The color and compostion are outstanding and he captured the perfect peak moment." I've seen poorly exposed, poorly composed images sell just because their child was in the picture. To me the tired argument comes from the other side of the fence, those that tell us "well competition will force you to step up your game and you'll produce a superior product which will lead to more sales." I may up my game but that does not necessarily translate into more sales.

Personally I don't bother with mom's, dad's, uncle's and grandfathers shooting from the sidelines. Doing so would only alienate my clients. In actuality I willingly help them with their equipment and answer their questions frequently. I've spoken to many people who have gotten free images but still buy from me. The ones that should be flogged are those who claim to be professionals but don't even have enough respect to approach the league with an introduction, a presentation, or a proposal and then they get all beligerent when asked to stop.
Dec 27, 2007 at 04:22 PM
MDteX
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p.2 #13 · Exclusivity for Youth League...?


Steve Ickes wrote:
That certainly is your choice and it's really how I got my foot in the door. All teams already had contracts for T&I so I got approval to shoot games (non exclusive by the way). Now that I have the T&I, part of my service is to provide game coverage. Where I live no other T&I photo company offers that. They come in shoot the posed stuff and then you never hear from them again until contract renewal. No where in my contract does it stipulate that the league must prohibit anyone else from shooting the games (parents! snap...Show more →

We allow other's to shoot and sell action shots. It's called competition.

You are a greedy capitalist---that's why we are in business! I would expect you to make money. I agree that many parents will buy a shot of their kid regardless of the quality. But I would expect many to buy the quality shot from you as opposed to the average shot from "Drive By Shooters" even if it does cost more. As you state most parents really don't look at the lighting, the framing, the background, etc. They just little Johnny in the pic and say let's buy it.

As I stated---the photographer has to go before the board and make his presentation. He just can't show up on the sidelines and expect to have access and shoot. He will be asked to go to the stands with everyone else except the ones approved by the board and passing a background check.
Dec 27, 2007 at 04:50 PM
Mark Peters
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p.2 #14 · Exclusivity for Youth League...?


Steve Ickes wrote:
My biggest problem and obviously one of the biggest problems in this business today are the folks who don't really care if they make any money or recoup the cost of their investment.

If you want to blame someone, blame Canon or Nikon for making such wonderful, relatively low cost, easy to use/learn digital gear. Of course that is the same technology that has allowed for the extreme growth in event photography.

I would suggest that as digital technology gets better and better, the ability to make good money at this will be harder and harder. That is bad for the photographer, but I have a difficult time saying that in the long run it is bad for the consumer.
Dec 27, 2007 at 05:43 PM
leewoolery
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p.2 #15 · Exclusivity for Youth League...?


Hey guys...there's a whole lot of youth sports out there....probably in your own backyard...that aren't being covered....by anyone.

Instead of complaining on this forum about how unfair the system is...you could use the time it takes to write these essays to contact potential clients and end up with more work than you can handle.

You'll be so busy shooting sports and making money that you could care less whether you've got an exclusive deal or not!

Lee Woolery
Speedshot Action Photography
www.speedshotphoto.com
Dec 27, 2007 at 05:58 PM
dpmurray
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p.2 #16 · Exclusivity for Youth League...?


leewoolery wrote:
Hey guys...there's a whole lot of youth sports out there....probably in your own backyard...that aren't being covered....by anyone.



Just like pro sports, I think a lot of people operate with the pecking order of youth sports - football is king, then everything follows. Boys sports are king, girls are second.

Being a good business person - whether that's structuring your contracts to your advantage, or finding untapped markets - is at least as important as the product you bring.
Dec 27, 2007 at 09:19 PM
Steve Ickes
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p.2 #17 · Exclusivity for Youth League...?


mjp734 wrote:
If you want to blame someone, blame Canon or Nikon for making such wonderful, relatively low cost, easy to use/learn digital gear. Of course that is the same technology that has allowed for the extreme growth in event photography.



Not blaming anyone just an observation turned rant



Dec 28, 2007 at 08:36 AM
mlane
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p.2 #18 · Exclusivity for Youth League...?


Gary -

This is why only pros are allowed on fields when I host tournaments.

During one of my state tournaments, the pro I was using was sitting just outside the first base dugout. He was using his 400. Ball went foul off the bat, right into the lens! Thankfully, it was off angle just enough that it just rolled around in the cover. He tipped the camera over, ball rolled out, he tossed it back on the field and kept on shooting.

Scared me cause I knew how much he just paid for the lens!

Mark
Dec 30, 2007 at 01:30 PM
P_W_P
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p.2 #19 · Exclusivity for Youth League...?


I photography my children's teams all season long. I'm always there for every game. I capture the good games, the bad, good weather, and bad. I get to know the children and I capture their style of play.


Kids are here to play a sport and the parents are here to enjoy it. We are not here as revenue source for professional photographers. If you happen to be able to make a market out of the sports in which my children are involved, that's fine. I wish you the best success!


I have the luxury of being able to afford very good equipment and I practice, practice, practice. So -- you better be good at what you do.



Dec 30, 2007 at 03:53 PM
leewoolery
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p.2 #20 · Exclusivity for Youth League...?


P_W_P wrote:
I photography my children's teams all season long. I'm always there for every game. I capture the good games, the bad, good weather, and bad. I get to know the children and I capture their style of play.

Kids are here to play a sport and the parents are here to enjoy it. We are not here as revenue source for professional photographers. If you happen to be able to make a market out of the sports in which my children are involved, that's fine. I wish you the best success!

I have the luxury of being able to afford very...Show more →

Last time I checked my league, event and school contracts, there was no mention that EVERY participant MUST buy photos. If they did, I'd be a millionaire.

My clients purchase photos from me because they want them...not because they are forced to. I simply provide a service to the youth leagues, events and schools I'm contracted with....and don't view them as "income streams" in the negative way you are implying.

Lee Woolery
Speedshot Action Photography
www.speedshotphoto.com
Dec 30, 2007 at 04:19 PM
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