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Archive 2007 · Schneider-Kreuznach PC-Super-Angulon 28 f2.8

  
 
PatrickChen
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Schneider-Kreuznach PC-Super-Angulon 28 f2.8


After a quick review from the internet, Zeiss PC-Distagon 35 f2.8 seems the best perspective control lens, but 35mm looks not wide enough for architecture shooting always.
Schneider-Kreuznach PC-Super-Angulon 28 f2.8 is identical with Leica PC-Super-Angulon-R 28 f2.8 but the former is cheaper.

Many people said that canon TS-E 24 w/ CA and softt issues, I wonder whether no such problems on Schneider 28 ?

Thanks.



Dec 15, 2007 at 10:06 PM
hubsand
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Schneider-Kreuznach PC-Super-Angulon 28 f2.8


I had two, and they did behave differently but both were better than the 24TS. It's Achilles' heel is CA and colour shifts in the outer image circle. Resolution is excellent up to about 7mm shift.


Dec 16, 2007 at 04:41 PM
eleff
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Schneider-Kreuznach PC-Super-Angulon 28 f2.8


I bought the Leica version used where it went for the same price as the Canon mount Super-Angulon. The rumors a few years ago was that Leica cherry picked the better ones. I think it is a very nice lens, especially around f5.6. Very easy to use with the 45 degree rotation. I chose the 28 over the 35 for the wider field of view.


Dec 16, 2007 at 06:02 PM
mark1958
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Schneider-Kreuznach PC-Super-Angulon 28 f2.8


I have this lens as well... I agree with Husband. I called schneider and they said no difference between the leica and non leica other than you get the hood thrown in. I have done some comparisons with the 35mm PC on the new 1DsmkIII. The results are shown in the canon forum. The CA is an issue but fixes nicely in CS3. Sharp corner to corner


Dec 16, 2007 at 07:24 PM
PatrickChen
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Schneider-Kreuznach PC-Super-Angulon 28 f2.8


mark1958 wrote:
I have this lens as well... I agree with Husband. I called schneider and they said no difference between the leica and non leica other than you get the hood thrown in. I have done some comparisons with the 35mm PC on the new 1DsmkIII. The results are shown in the canon forum. The CA is an issue but fixes nicely in CS3. Sharp corner to corner


Would you please show me the hyperlink of this comparisons ?

Do you mean canon ts-e 24, schneider pc 28 and Zeiss 35 all suffer CA issue ? Which one is better ?
Do you have samples to check how sharp schneider is than canon ?

Thanks.



Dec 16, 2007 at 08:43 PM
mark1958
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Schneider-Kreuznach PC-Super-Angulon 28 f2.8


I had changed the title of the topic when i added some other comparisons so here it is. The contax 35mm PC is the best in the wide angle range. The schneider is pretty darn sharp but it suffers CA and fringing big time when shifted. The contax can have a small tad but it is uncommon. The 24mm TSE is also a lens that suffers from the fringing and CA when shifted as well. The 24mm has the advantage of being able to do Tilt. The other stellar performer is the olympus 24mm shift but big variation in copy to copy. THey were all hand made from my understanding some years back Here is what i posted
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/596985



Dec 16, 2007 at 08:59 PM
PatrickChen
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Schneider-Kreuznach PC-Super-Angulon 28 f2.8


I wonder how often we do tilt on the wide angle t/s lens ?

BTW, found these 35mm comparisons:
http://24x36.org/tests/35mm/test35mm.html
http://photoxp.daifukuya.com/index/2005/3/6/



Dec 16, 2007 at 11:07 PM
Makten
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Schneider-Kreuznach PC-Super-Angulon 28 f2.8


Digging up a veeeery old thread!

Is anyone using this lens on modern digital cameras, and would you say it's worth it? I'm looking for a wide angle for the Fuji GFX, and shift lenses have a large enough image circle to cover the 33x44 mm sensor. However, since you're then always in the "shift area", I'm not sure that image quality is sufficient. Especially not with todays higher standards.



Jan 03, 2020 at 03:04 AM
gyoung143
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Schneider-Kreuznach PC-Super-Angulon 28 f2.8




Makten wrote:
Digging up a veeeery old thread!

Is anyone using this lens on modern digital cameras, and would you say it's worth it? I'm looking for a wide angle for the Fuji GFX, and shift lenses have a large enough image circle to cover the 33x44 mm sensor. However, since you're then always in the "shift area", I'm not sure that image quality is sufficient. Especially not with todays higher standards.

Not one of the lenses discussed in this old thread, but I had a P C Nikkor 35 2.8 for a long time, used on film, not really wide enough for many things but it kept me anused in retirement after using Sinars and Super Angulons professionally.
I tried it out on full frame Sony A7 and wasn't too impressed with the results, better to use a good modern prime and software correction in Lightroom. In the end I went for Fuji, and it was even less useful on aps-c, so I sold it, and use the software correction route with Fuji 14 and 23, and even with the Laowa 9mm.
Tilt is something else though, I never had too much use for that, but if you do then software can't do tilt!

Gerry



Jan 03, 2020 at 03:22 AM
Audii-Dudii
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Schneider-Kreuznach PC-Super-Angulon 28 f2.8


Makten wrote:
Is anyone using this lens on modern digital cameras, and would you say it's worth it? I'm looking for a wide angle for the Fuji GFX, and shift lenses have a large enough image circle to cover the 33x44 mm sensor. However, since you're then always in the "shift area", I'm not sure that image quality is sufficient. Especially not with todays higher standards.


Thinking the same thing as you, I originally bought mine to use with a Contax 645 / P30+ outfit because the 35/f3.5 C645 lens, while a great performer, wasn't quite wide enough for the urban and suburban street-and-alley scenes I like to photograph. Plus, I had hoped its image circle would be large enough and high-quality enough that I would have at least a few millimeters of rise / fall movement possible.

My plan was to remove the shift mechanism and mount it on my C645 body, but it turns out its FFD was such that with my limited resources, I wouldn't be able to make it focus properly at infinity. Obviously, this isn't an issue with the Fuji G-series cameras and their 26.7 mm FFD (v. 64 mm for the C645) and suitable adapters now available off the shelf.

Anyway, I still own mine and it's apparently one of the better performing copies -- reputation has it that the IQ of this lens varies from copy to copy -- but when used with my A7R, it renders quite a bit differently than the Zeiss lenses I prefer.

In many ways, it's reminiscent of the Leica lenses of its day (which is probably why Leica sold a version of it for its R-series bodies!) with a softer, lower contrast rendering style. Although it's not been my primary lens at this focal length, I do still use it occasionally when this is the look I'm after or I need to use movements but don't want to carry one of my FrankenKameras (which turn every lens into a shift lens) with me.

As you correctly suspect, the image quality does drop off as the lens is shifted off-center, but at least on mine, it does so in a gradual, almost linear way. But as I photograph mostly at night, this is rarely an issue for me since most of my compositions include either a black sky or inky black shadows around the edges, so this is not very visible, if at all.

Although mine is now for sale -- contact me for a good price! -- I doubt you will be pleased by its performance if you're hoping for a rendering style similar to what Fuji's native lenses offer. <shrug>



Jan 03, 2020 at 06:40 AM
Makten
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Schneider-Kreuznach PC-Super-Angulon 28 f2.8


Audii-Dudii wrote:
Thinking the same thing as you, I originally bought mine to use with a Contax 645 / P30+ outfit because the 35/f3.5 C645 lens, while a great performer, wasn't quite wide enough for the urban and suburban street-and-alley scenes I like to photograph. Plus, I had hoped its image circle would be large enough and high-quality enough that I would have at least a few millimeters of rise / fall movement possible.

My plan was to remove the shift mechanism and mount it on my C645 body, but it turns out its FFD was such that with my limited resources, I
...Show more

Thanks for the detailed answer! The reason I'm interested in the lens is because of the 28 mm focal length; the Fuji 23 is too wide and the 32-64 not wide enough. Also, I don't like the huge size of those lenses, even if I'm very close to buying them second hand anyway (the only obstacle is the distance to the seller).

Now, there's a Super-Angulon 28 for sale close to me for 8k SEK, which is roughly equivalent to $800. That's lower than most of these on Ebay, but still a bunch of money if it doesn't perform very well. My main concern is that Schneider themselves says the lens should be stopped down to f/11 for full shift, which is outside the 55 mm image circle that the GFX sensor requires. But I'd like it to be decent over the entire 33x44 area from f/4-5.6 at least.
Some say CA is the worst problem with this lens, and that can be corrected fairly easily as long as the lens is not shifted. Once you shift it, the software won't have any idea of where the middle of the "true" frame is, and I suppose correction will be impossible.

The same seller also has a Pentax 28/3.5 shift lens for the same price. I have not idea of if that's better or not.



Jan 03, 2020 at 01:42 PM
rdeloe
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Schneider-Kreuznach PC-Super-Angulon 28 f2.8


Makten wrote:
The same seller also has a Pentax 28/3.5 shift lens for the same price. I have not idea of if that's better or not.


That Pentax is one of the original K lenses. It's reviewed here: https://www.pentaxforums.com/lensreviews/SMC-Pentax-K-28mm-F3.5-Shift-Lens.html I find the reviews at this site to be very useful, but you have to filter for what the person is shooting on. Based on a quick review I didn't see anyone shooting on a 33x44mm sensor (so grain of salt time regarding the reviews).

If you get this one, do please post your findings! I shoot a bunch of different old lenses on my GFX 50R tilt-shift setup, but 35mm is as wide as I can go right now. I have yet to find anything wider that is worth trying.

If you can figure out how to operate the aperture, the Pentax 645 28-45 has an excellent reputation, but it's huge and heavy and very expensive.



Jan 03, 2020 at 02:01 PM
Audii-Dudii
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Schneider-Kreuznach PC-Super-Angulon 28 f2.8


Makten wrote:
The same seller also has a Pentax 28/3.5 shift lens for the same price. I have not idea of if that's better or not.


A while back, I helped a friend sell some of his surplus camera gear on eBay. Among the items sold was a mint condition Pentax 28/f3.5 shift lens he had bought as N.O.S. to use with his K-1 body.

Needless to say, being of the curious persuasion, I bought a lens adapter for it and spent a short period of time using it with my Sony A7R and Samsung NX 500 bodies.

While enough time has now passed that I no longer recall any details, I do recall my overall conclusion was that it wasn't a bad lens, merely a good and not great performer.



Jan 04, 2020 at 10:17 AM
Audii-Dudii
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Schneider-Kreuznach PC-Super-Angulon 28 f2.8


rdeloe wrote:
If you can figure out how to operate the aperture, the Pentax 645 28-45 has an excellent reputation, but it's huge and heavy and very expensive.


It appears Fotodiox now offers exactly such an adapter and for not a lot of money.

It's a shame the P645 28-45 zoom is so large, heavy -- more than three pounds .. gasp! -- and expensive, as I could do a lot of interesting things using this lens otherwise.

And, of course, there's also the P645 25/f4 lens, too!



Jan 04, 2020 at 10:24 AM
Makten
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Schneider-Kreuznach PC-Super-Angulon 28 f2.8


No 1.5 pound lenses for me thank you! It's not very surprising that a 28-45 zoom for an even larger film frame (41.5x56 mm) is large and heavy though. The Fuji 32-64 isn't nearly as wide and is still ~1 pound, so...

Of course reviews of shift lenses used on 33x44 will be scarce, but I think you can get an idea of the performance if the lens works great when shifted ~7 mm vertically or so on 24x36. The Schneider 28 PC allows 11 mm vertical shift and that corresponds to a 58.4 mm image circle, while the GFX only needs 55 mm. The manual also says the image circle is 62 mm, but that you have to stop down to use it with good results.
So, the question is, how "bad" is it on 33x44 from ~4? That won't be easy to find out without buying it and try!

However, my wide angle needs are not such that I must have the best possible image quality. Then I would just buy the GF 23/4 and crop. It's more just having a decent wide that doesn't vignette or smear the corners as bad as every 24x36 non-shift lens do. Now I'm using an Olympus OM 28/2 that works pretty damn well up to 16:9 format on the GFX, which means 25x44 mm sensor size! That's amazing for such a small lens and the Schneider PC must be a lot better.

Here's the OM28/2 @ f/11 and 25x44 mm...


2359 by Martin Hertsius, on Flickr



Jan 04, 2020 at 04:43 PM
Audii-Dudii
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Schneider-Kreuznach PC-Super-Angulon 28 f2.8


As it happens, I did test my Schneider 28/f2.8 PC with my P30+ back last fall using this setup, wherein I triggered the back, which has a 33x44 CCD sensor, manually using the Kapture Group's long-exposure box:



I took two test photos, with the subject of the first one being my neighbor's garage as seen from the end of my driveway, and the subject of the second one being a house a few doors down the street from mine.

The aperture was stopped down to f8 and no movements were used because the Kapture True-Wide camera I was using doesn't have any! I don't recall the exposure length, but based on my experience, I'm guessing it was 13-15 seconds for the first photo and 6-8 seconds for the second photo, both at ISO 100.

Make of them what you will:





Your Olympus 28/f2 does a very credible job! Covering a 25x44 frame requires an image circle of ~50.6 mm and it appears this lens is good for at least that without objectionable vignetting, which is good to know, so thanks for sharing!



Jan 04, 2020 at 06:30 PM
Makten
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Schneider-Kreuznach PC-Super-Angulon 28 f2.8


Audii-Dudii wrote:
As it happens, I did test my Schneider 28/f2.8 PC with my P30+ back last fall using this setup, wherein I triggered the back, which has a 33x44 CCD sensor, manually using the Kapture Group's long-exposure box:

https://i.imgur.com/aUERemc.jpg

I took two test photos, with the subject of the first one being my neighbor's garage as seen from the end of my driveway, and the subject of the second one being a house a few doors down the street from mine.

The aperture was stopped down to f8 and no movements were used because the Kapture True-Wide camera I was using doesn't have any!
...Show more

Interesting! I think we can see some deorientation of the corners even at f/8 in your first image, but no visible vignetting, which is more important to me. It's probably gonna clear up a little bit more at f/11-16 and I'm fine with that for tripod use.
I just got a mail reply from the seller of the Schneider 28 I'm looking at nearby, and the serial number indicates that it's from 1991 and it's got a Contax/Yashica mount. The question now is if it's worth the ~800 dollars or not. I mean, even a Samyang 24/3.5 is more expensive than that, and seems to have a lot more (complex) distortion and much worse build quality. The corners are probably better though.

Yes, the little OM 28/2 is great! I loved it on the Sony a7 II for the colors and clarity from ~f/4 and on, while it's really muddy wide open and has very funky bokeh unless stopped down.



Jan 06, 2020 at 09:36 AM
Audii-Dudii
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Schneider-Kreuznach PC-Super-Angulon 28 f2.8


Makten wrote:
Interesting! I think we can see some deorientation of the corners even at f/8 in your first image, but no visible vignetting, which is more important to me. It's probably gonna clear up a little bit more at f/11-16 and I'm fine with that for tripod use.


I noticed that as well, but it's never been an issue when using this lens with a 24x36 sensor. That's because the second photo is more typical for me and as you can see, thanks to the black sky and shadows, soft corners are effectively made invisible.

I just got a mail reply from the seller of the Schneider 28 I'm looking at nearby, and the serial number indicates that it's from 1991 and it's got a Contax/Yashica mount.

As you probably know, in addition to the Leica-branded version, Schneider also sold this lens under its own name and offered it in several different lens mounts, all of which were interchangeable. Alas, they no longer have stock for these mounts, but Leitax does offer replacements, hence the Nikon F-mount I have installed on mine.



Jan 06, 2020 at 10:08 AM
Makten
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Schneider-Kreuznach PC-Super-Angulon 28 f2.8


Audii-Dudii wrote:
I noticed that as well, but it's never been an issue when using this lens with a 24x36 sensor. That's because the second photo is more typical for me and as you can see, thanks to the black sky and shadows, soft corners are effectively made invisible.

As you probably know, in addition to the Leica-branded version, Schneider also sold this lens under its own name and offered it in several different lens mounts, all of which were interchangeable. Alas, they no longer have stock for these mounts, but Leitax does offer replacements, hence the Nikon F-mount I have installed on
...Show more

That's good to know. Maybe it's better to replace the mount than buy yet another adapter.



Jan 06, 2020 at 10:15 AM
AndereObjektiv
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Schneider-Kreuznach PC-Super-Angulon 28 f2.8


Interested in this line of research, too.

The fuji gfx lens lineup is missing the middle-wide primes but so far the sharpest of the bayonet type, hopefully they will make a middle wide prime soon, given the success of the gfx100. The hasselblad xcd has the 30, which seems pretty good. The pentax has the 25 for $5.5k(!) and the 35 for 1500, which looks promising to adapt to 24x36 sensors, as well. But it's not a 28 or 24.

The hasselblad 907x looks very promising. Maybe fuji will make a 33x44 modular like the 907x.

That's one crazy copal bayonet on your Kapture True-Wide, Audii-Dudii!

The cambo actus looks like a possible solution, I only worry about the precision of lens movements, as my sinar p3 with digital fine focus is still not precise enough for the latest sensors.

Maybe someone will hotrod some large format retrofocus wides into otus-like bayonets.




Jan 06, 2020 at 10:31 AM
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