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Does your MkIII have autofocus problems?
Yes, it absolutely has a focusing problem PollPollPoll 100 8%
No, it seems to work fine (similar to previous 1-Series bodies) PollPollPoll 64 5%
I'm not sure yet PollPollPoll 49 4%
[I just want to see the results...] PollPollPoll 1091 84%
Total Votes 1304 100%

Archive 2007 · Does your MkIII have AF issues?

  
 
H. Ludens
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p.11 #1 · Does your MkIII have AF issues?


First off, I'm not a camera or lens designer, and am thus a bit on a shaky ground here. Take everything I say with a pinch of salt.

Rob Galbraith has said:
"when the light is especially bright and the temperature is warm, the camera's autofocus performance drops like a stone."

The circumstances described by Rob (good AF performance in overcast or rainy situations, mediocre AF when sunny and warm) indicate that infrared light could be a factor.

Camera lenses are designed under the assumption that the medium filling the space between the lens' last element and the film or sensor plane has a refraction index of one (e.g. air, gases, vacuum...)

Light rays emitted by an object at an "infinite" distance, sitting on the optical axis, will come into focus at the lens' "focal" point.
Light rays emitted by an object closer than "infinite" will come into focus behind that "focal" point.

Thus, the locus of focus points will be distributed along an axis (the Z axis) that is perpendicular to the film plane, depending on the the object's distance. Focusing is basically equivalent to moving the lens back and forth, to bring into exact coincidence the film plane and the focusing plane of the specific subject we're interested in.

In an AF SLR, the lightrays used for focusing go through the semi-transparent main mirror, are reflected by a submirror, converged by lenses, and then split into left and right halves (for horizontal AF sensors) by a splitter prism, and then finally projected onto high-resolution line sensors.
Conceptually, the AF splitter prism takes the locus of focus points distributed along the Z axis and rotates it slightly around a vertical Y axis (which goes e.g. through the camera's flash mount at the top and the tripod socket at the bottom of the camera.)
This rotation, in a sense, rotates and projects any movement along the Z axis as a movement on an horizontal X axis running parallel to the film plane.
The AF unit measures the phase difference -- i.e. distance -- between the correlated symmetrical light patterns projected on the left and right horizontal AF line detectors, and deduces the amount and direction of the focus correction that is needed, if any.

High-end lens designs using e.g. fluorite or UD elements can be made apochromatic, and such lenses are sometimes corrected so well for chromatic aberrations that even near-infrared light and visible light are focused substantially on the same focusing plane.
On the other hand, it's unlikely that the AF unit's convergence lens and splitter prism are apochromatic, as they must be designed to provide a reasonable, average optical fit with the incident light rays coming from any lens that could be mounted on the camera -- e.g. a 14mm super wide or a 1200mm+ super tele.

The amplitude of the light rays' angular rotation from the Z- to the X-axis induced by the AF splitter prism will depend on the prism's refraction index, and thus be wavelength-dependent.
Infrared, having a longer wavelength than visible light, will be refracted less, and the induced rotation from Z to X for infrared will thus be less than for visible light.
An object whose distance changes relative to the camera will cause its focusing plane to move along the Z axis. This movement, rotated and projected, will therefore cover a smaller distance on the X axis for infrared than for visible light signals.

Thus, for objects emitting large amounts of near-infrared light, there is, IMHO, a possibility that the AF module will be fooled by IR-induced spurious signals, and detect an on-sensor X-axis velocity that is too low.
In AF servo mode, this could adversely affect the AF sensor's movement prediction and tracking abilities:

  1. For approaching objects, an underestimated velocity will cause the focus point chosen by the camera to lag behind the object's actual position, i.e. cause back focusing.
  2. Conversely, for objects going away from the camera, the underestimated velocity might cause front focusing.


It's likely that the engineers at Canon are more than aware of such IR-induced issues as a non-specialist like me could imagine. Thus, it's a certainty that Canon has put serious effort into filtering any IR that could reach the AF detectors.
Nonetheless, one should note that the 1D3 has much more peripheral AF cross-sensors than the 1D2. Recall that the AF concentrator lens and splitter prism are materials with a refraction index larger than 1, which will thus affect the lightray path the camera lens designer had intended, and perhaps induce astigmatism, field curvature, coma, spherical aberrations etc. on the image projected on the AF sensors.

Compared with the 1D2, the 1D3's AF sensor must presumably have improved accuracy (to support the camera's improved 10MP resolution) and be more sensitive in low light (to respond to market demands).
This, coupled with the fact that peripheral sensors, now that they are of the "cross" type, will be more sensitive to aberrations, might have forced Canon's designers to shave as much thickness as possible from the AF sensor's >1 refraction index optical elements, including the infrared filter.
In turn, this might have led to a slightly increased IR sensitivity of the 1D3's AF module, compared with the 1D2's.

One simple way to test this hypothesis would be to put an IR rejection filter -- e.g. a B+W 486 or a Kenko DR655 -- on a lens with a shallow depth of field, with which focusing errors would be obvious, and see if this has any influence on the 1D3's AF behavior.
My 1D3 hasn't arrived yet, and I would be grateful, probably like many others, if an 1D3 owner could put this hypothesis to the test

I should probably also add that birds, unlike athletes wearing synthetic fabrics, might not be the best subjects to test the incidence of IR on an AF system's performance.
A bird feather's perceived color can be caused by a scattering or diffraction of a very narrow wavelength range. All the other light wavelengths, possibly including those close to the visible spectrum like near-infrared, can be absorbed.

See e.g. this article for a glimpse at the complexity behind some bird feathers' colors:

"The structural origin of the weak iridescence on some of the dark feathers of the black-billed magpie, Pica pic (Corvidae), is found in the structure of the ribbon-shaped barbules. The cortex of these barbules contains cylindrical holes distributed as the nodes of an hexagonal lattice in the hard layer cross section. The cortex optical properties are described starting from a photonic-crystal film theory. The yellowish-green coloration of the bird's tail can be explained by the appearance of a reflection band related to the photonic-crystal lowest-lying gap. The bluish reflections from the wings are produced by a more complicated mechanism, involving the presence of a cortex second gap."

As the bird's feather would appear near-black at the absorbed wavelengths, including near-infrared, there would be almost no spurious IR signal interfering with the feather's visible light color signal used by the camera's AF. There wouldn't be any errors in the focusing, then, and using an IR rejection filter like a BW486 would have little effect in such cases.

At any rate, Rob Galbraith's test pictures, and these ones, posted on DPreview, where I think I see a slight back focus, as the boat's wake and the water skier seem to be sharper than the boat's passengers, are consistent with the hypothesis that a large IR signal would cause the focus point to lag behind an approaching subject in AF servo mode.

Edited by H. Ludens on Jun 27, 2007 at 02:48 PM GMT



Jun 27, 2007 at 05:39 AM
rd4tile
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p.11 #2 · Does your MkIII have AF issues?


H. Ludens,

That's an interesting post above and certainly doesn't sound all that "far fetched" given what I've seen so far. The ski boat sequence shots are all cropped and the boat was actually a little further away then that sequence image shows. While I tried to keep the CP on the windshield of the boat I doubt it was that close on many of those during that seq.

Given the distances involved and the DOF at f6.3 I'm wondering if the focus might drift a bit anyway but who knows. These were certainly more in focus then anything I've gotten before where normally at least 5 or 6 would have been totally mis-focused. I attribute that to setting cfnIII-5 to 1, which seemed to calm the AF down.

Anyhow if you would like to see any of those at original size let me know I'll post them up on my pbase site.



Jun 27, 2007 at 07:32 AM
khurram1
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p.11 #3 · Does your MkIII have AF issues?


Jeff wrote:
Hmm. Maybe find an area in question, view at 100%, then crop a 600 to 800 pixel portion. 'Save as' a new file, and then upload/post it here so we can see what the issues are.

Hi Jeff,
Here is a croped section that shows the problem area. The lab told me i shouldn't try making anything larger then a 16x20 of this shot, unless i want to print on canvess. WIth the test strip they did for 24x36 pixalation was much more evident.



Jun 27, 2007 at 07:38 AM
Yakim Peled
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p.11 #4 · Does your MkIII have AF issues?


rscheffler wrote:
Yakim, I think you misunderstand the purpose for that custom function. It's not to prevent the AF from focusing inaccurately for whatever reason, either due to user or camera error in following a small moving subject or it refocusing on something else of equal or greater contrast, etc. It's designed to prevent the AF from racking back and forth and wasting a second or two trying to focus on an area with no contrast. Instead it's supposed to keep the focus at the last reliable focus lock until there is enough contrast to again find focus. A problem with this
...Show more

My understanding of this is very straightforward: Do not release the shutter if nothing is in focus.

Happy shooting,
Yakim.



Jun 27, 2007 at 09:31 AM
JackCnd
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p.11 #5 · Does your MkIII have AF issues?


H. Ludens wrote:
One simple way to test this hypothesis would be to put an IR rejection filter -- e.g. a B+W 486 or a Kenko DR655 -- on a lens with a shallow depth of field, with which focusing errors would be obvious, and see if this has any influence on the 1D3's AF behavior.
My 1D3 hasn't arrived yet, and I would be grateful, probably like many others, if an 1D3 owner could put this hypothesis to the test


Tony Field used a 'Hot Mirror Filter' to remove IR, and feels it adds to sharpness. Be interesting to see more samples of this...
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1032&thread=23799056


Edited by JackCnd on Jun 28, 2007 at 07:42 AM GMT



Jun 28, 2007 at 08:48 AM
Jeff
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p.11 #6 · Does your MkIII have AF issues?



Jeff wrote:
Hmm. Maybe find an area in question, view at 100%, then crop a 600 to 800 pixel portion. 'Save as' a new file, and then upload/post it here so we can see what the issues are.


khurram1 wrote:
Here is a cropped section that shows the problem area. The lab told me i shouldn't try making anything larger then a 16x20 of this shot, unless i want to print on canvess. WIth the test strip they did for 24x36 pixalation was much more evident.


That's not pixellization, per se, but noise. It appears that you've already run chroma noise reduction (this is just a guess looking at the file), and what you are left with is a slight bit of enhanced luminance noise (ISO 400) in the darker portions of the image. Since there is no detail in this area, it would help if it were not sharpened during post-processing. Also, any sort of levels adjustments you make in this area will increase the effect, so you want to get the image looking as right as possible out of DPP.

Not sure that helps any, but that's what I got out of it. Good luck.



Jun 28, 2007 at 08:49 AM
Hrow
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p.11 #7 · Does your MkIII have AF issues?


I am not sure that the problem is an AF issue at all. Yesterday I took my new M3 out for a whirl and one of the things I did was put about 30mm of extension tubes on my 300mm to shoot some flowers. As I often do, I was shooting on a tripod (BH-55 w/ Manfrotto 055 legs) with a cable release. As I was looking thru the VF I was stunned to see the amount of residual vibration from just clicking the shutter. I realize that the tubes and 300mm magnify the problem but none-the-less it got me thinking.

If the vibration from mirror slap and/or the shutter is still there when the next shot is fired then the IQ is going to suffer on subsequent shots. In essence, you have camera shake that is not being controlled by either the IS or the shutter speed. So....

This morning I took a magazine and set it up as a target. Mounted the camera on the tripod on the driveway, focused using the center point and fired away using a cable release. The first frame is sharp and subsequent frames get softer. Below are three frames - the first, fourth and fifteenth. It may be a bit tough to tell on this small scale but there is a noticeable difference when looking at the whole image. It is not like the world is ending but it is there.

I am not saying that this is the cause of everyone's woes but it might be a good thing to check and see if others can duplicate what I am seeing. Lots of variables could cause the problem to be better or worse including lens length, how it is reacting to the IS of the lens, distance, all sorts of things could come into play. For example, my 300mm has a little more slop when mounted than does my 70-200. How does that factor into it? That sort of thing. One thing that didn't make a big difference was shutter speed. The displayed images were shot at 1/100. Another sequence shot at 1/800 was virtually identical in all regards.

Just a thought.


http://www.preservationist.net/hrphotos/m3-1.jpg

http://www.preservationist.net/hrphotos/m3-2.jpg

http://www.preservationist.net/hrphotos/m3-3.jpg






Jun 28, 2007 at 11:26 AM
mrogers
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p.11 #8 · Does your MkIII have AF issues?


Hey Yakim...what would you say if when looking through the veiw finder and you hit stage one of your shutter or back focus buttton, the view snaps into focus and you shoot...when you check your shot after, the image is not focused!??


Jun 28, 2007 at 05:19 PM
GeneO
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p.11 #9 · Does your MkIII have AF issues?


Hrow.

It certainly doesn't explain the Galbraith and Naturescape reported issues which are in good daylight and fast shutter speeds where miror slap doesn't matter.

Gene




Jun 28, 2007 at 06:29 PM
Hrow
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p.11 #10 · Does your MkIII have AF issues?


GeneO wrote:
Hrow.

It certainly doesn't explain the Galbraith and Naturescape reported issues which are in good daylight and fast shutter speeds where miror slap doesn't matter.

Gene




Depends on a lot of factors including the potential for a negative reaction with the IS in the lens. I can see it at 1/800 which should be well above the threshold for the 300mm and that's tripod mounted.

I am not saying it is "the" problem but it may be factor or an issue in and of itself. It is also easy for others to check as it could just be my lens, my camera or a combo. Throw the camera with a long lens on a tripod and keep your eye slightly away from the VF. Fire off a shot and using the edge as a reference, look and see if you if there is residual movement after the blackout period ends.




Jun 28, 2007 at 08:51 PM
Wickedfn4u
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p.11 #11 · Does your MkIII have AF issues?


Hrow wrote:
I am not sure that the problem is an AF issue at all. Yesterday I took my new M3 out for a whirl and one of the things I did was put about 30mm of extension tubes on my 300mm to shoot some flowers. As I often do, I was shooting on a tripod (BH-55 w/ Manfrotto 055 legs) with a cable release. As I was looking thru the VF I was stunned to see the amount of residual vibration from just clicking the shutter. I realize that the tubes and 300mm magnify the problem but none-the-less it got me
...Show more

Well since my last comment was deleted about this having credibility in the conspiracy theories being tossed about, I would lean toward something like this. I don't get many oof shots as I usually only burst 1-3 at a time.



Jun 29, 2007 at 12:16 AM
mrogers
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p.11 #12 · Does your MkIII have AF issues?


even with all my whining about lack of focus, when the III snaps in on one ......


Jun 29, 2007 at 02:44 AM
Irish Snapper
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p.11 #13 · Does your MkIII have AF issues?


What an absolutely fantastic shot! I personally can't wait to get a hold of my Mark 3 but the bottom line as always is it's the person behind the camera.


Jun 29, 2007 at 07:06 AM
wacomme
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p.11 #14 · Does your MkIII have AF issues?


Oh yeah. I love the shot.

Michael



Jun 29, 2007 at 09:18 AM
rd4tile
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p.11 #15 · Does your MkIII have AF issues?


WOW that's a keeper, love the colors of the water which the mkIII really shows well! What lens?


Jun 29, 2007 at 09:32 AM
Volleybob
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p.11 #16 · Does your MkIII have AF issues?


Are you MKlll early adpoters going to buy the iPhone next week? or have you learned the lesson?


Jun 29, 2007 at 11:04 AM
rd4tile
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p.11 #17 · Does your MkIII have AF issues?


Volleybob wrote:
Are you MKlll early adpoters going to buy the iPhone next week? or have you learned the lesson?


If the iPhone works as well as the mkIII - hell yes!



Jun 29, 2007 at 11:20 AM
ejmartin
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p.11 #18 · Does your MkIII have AF issues?


Volleybob wrote:
Are you MKlll early adpoters going to buy the iPhone next week? or have you learned the lesson?


Personally, I can't wait for the "camera in my iPhone won't AF" threads



Jun 29, 2007 at 11:45 AM
mark1958
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p.11 #19 · Does your MkIII have AF issues?


Hey i just told a colleague today i was thinking about an iphone but then i think about all the 1DmkIII issues and then decided to wait


Jun 29, 2007 at 12:07 PM
DixPix
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p.11 #20 · Does your MkIII have AF issues?


I haven't read the entire thread so I don't know if anyone has posted a message about this but here it is: I called Canon to ask them about the AF problem. They said they were aware and working on a firmware update that should take care of it. They put me on their e-mail list for the subject and they are e-mailing me a shipping label to send them a CD with pictures to demonstrate my problem. It is not mandatory to send pictures. My impression is that nobody will be left out in the cold. I hope it doesn't take too long.

Dick



Jun 29, 2007 at 12:47 PM
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