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Archive 2007 · Where does the 3D look come from?

  
 
zhangp
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p.23 #1 · Where does the 3D look come from?


3D: a near optical illusion? I need to see some samples. Meanwhile...a snap at ISO1600


Jun 12, 2007 at 10:46 PM
Daniel Buck
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p.23 #2 · Where does the 3D look come from?


zhangp wrote:
3D: a near optical illusion?
I have a feeling some of it may be the "Emperor's New Clothes" type deal? I know it's hard to judge things with a web-sized image, but I honestly don't see anything 3d/magical in most of the images posted here. Maybe I'm just a bit jaded because I work with all types of images and image processing every day (photo and 3d).



Jun 12, 2007 at 10:50 PM
DrPablo
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p.23 #3 · Where does the 3D look come from?


zhangp wrote:
3D: a near optical illusion? I need to see some samples.


Of course it's an optical illusion.

These shots are, in fact, 2D.

So if they look convincingly 3D, then it is an illusion.

The problem is, very few of these, however good, however vivid, make me think I'm looking at a 3-dimensional scene.

Here's one of the few of mine that make me feel that way (though it's much more vivid with the 11x14 print in hand -- because the pennies are something like 3x life size.

http://www.pbase.com/drpablo74/image/72879049.jpg



Jun 12, 2007 at 10:56 PM
jaapv
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p.23 #4 · Where does the 3D look come from?


Leica glass, preferably older:

Leica M8, Tele-Elmarit 4.0, wide open:

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e32/jaapv/snake.jpg



Jun 13, 2007 at 06:22 PM
zhangp
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p.23 #5 · Where does the 3D look come from?


Testing -"an optical illusion"


Jun 13, 2007 at 09:59 PM
zhangp
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p.23 #6 · Where does the 3D look come from?


B/W version


Jun 13, 2007 at 10:00 PM
zhangp
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p.23 #7 · Where does the 3D look come from?


one more try


Jun 13, 2007 at 10:31 PM
DrPablo
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p.23 #8 · Where does the 3D look come from?


The third looks the best from a 3D point of view, because both the spine and the face of the book are sharp. So you actually have focus in two planes, and that is really important to a 3D effect. The noise is a bit distracting, though, because it attracts attention to an out of focus background that should be totally smooth.


Jun 13, 2007 at 11:02 PM
Orio
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p.23 #9 · Where does the 3D look come from?


I would like to submit to your attention this photograph I took this early morning, about one hour after dawn:

View of the hills around hometown

Taken with EOS 5D and Leitz Elmarit-R 135 (last version)

And consider that the JPG conversion kills about 50% of the perception I have from the 16bit TIF.




Jun 16, 2007 at 09:32 PM
Orio
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p.23 #10 · Where does the 3D look come from?


I have personally begun to realize a few environmental conditions that help a lot the perception of roundness:

1) Light direction, the more lateral the usually better - although I have seen very "round" images even with frontal lighting

2) having different "wings" in the framed scene, at different distances

3) the "aerial perspective" of Leonardo heritage (haze in the background distance)

4) Having round or cylindrical objects in the frame (e.g: a tree trunk; a human face; etc.)improves the perception of depth for the whole image; Cubic objects, even of greater physical depth, help this perception less. Other wise said, a small trunk or human face can help more than a huge wall, ever if the wall is at slanted position in the frame. Of course this is also related to the points "a" and "d" (more below)

There are of course photographers choices and conditions that are equally and probably even more important:

a) with regards to point 2 above, it is important to have a lens that has a smooth gradual transition from focused to blurred. The smoother the transition, the greater the depth perception

b) Having a photo with a low macrocontrast and a high microcontrast not only helps a lot, but is also a key element apparently

c) provided that the other conditions are there (especially point "a"), some wisely applied sharpening does enhance the effect of the microcontrast and thus boost the depth perception. it is important, however, that the sharpness is not so strong to also bring out too much detail from areas that are placed in a different scene wing. This also works in relation to the following point "d"

d) the DOF is a very important choice to make. And of course it varies with the lens you use, so it's difficult to make an overall rule for that. Based on my experience, however, I'd say that neither extremes (wide open or too narrow) work well. When wide open, you end up flattening the perspective too much, and make things visually end on one same "image plane" where they would actually be separated by good distance.
When stopped down too much, you also have a similar consequence of flattening, because having too many objects at different distances in perfect focus, also flattens the perspective. Opposite action, but same consequence.
The best "3D" results seem to be obtained for me at moderate apertures - I would say in the range from f/2.8 to f/5.6

e) White balance: with regards to point 3 especially, I have found out that warmer tones tend to reduce the depth perception, while cooler tones tend to enhance the depth perception. This has of course to do with the fact that the air actually has the blueish colour of the sky, so to have a cooler tint to the image means to reinforce the impression that there is more air amongst the objects.
This of course does have to be subtle, because if the cool cast is too heavy, it will have the opposite consequence of flattening the perception of the space, because the stronger the cast, the more it reduces the number of different colours in the image. This is also related to the following point "f"

f) Having a greater number of different colours in the image seems to enhance the perception of depth, although slightly. Of course the placement of colours also matters: having warmer colours in the front and cooler colours in the background helps to keep things within the Leonardo aerial perspective rule

g) Exposure: based on my experience, I have noticed that slightly underexposed images render more perception of depth for the foreground objects especially, and in general for the focused objects. I have not thought about this much to analyze the reason why - yet it's something that I can visually appreciate in my tentatives. Perhaps this is linked much to point "b", as it seems that the more microcontrast a lens can render, the more pronounced is the depth effect of the underexposure of the focused subject and foreground.

h) ISO, the lower the better. I find that image noise or grain can largely kill even the best achieved depth perception result.

OK these are more or less the results of several weeks of tentatives and reasoning. Maybe there is something else that escapes my memory now, but mostly i'd say that this is it for the current state of my research.



Jun 17, 2007 at 12:41 PM
Orio
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p.23 #11 · Where does the 3D look come from?


Here's an analysis of my image in the different "wings":

Analysis of my image

The foreground (wing 1) is determined mostly by the DOF

The second (2) wing is determined mostly by the presence of textural detail and microcontrast.
Note that the quality of the lens plays a key role here. The lens must be able to render good microcontrast to bring out detail from a uniform field of grass. Also, and more importantly, the lens has to have a smooth bokeh-to-focus transition, which is the case here, because a good gradual transition makes you "feel" the depth better

The line of trees (3) is the third wing and it coincides with the focal plane.
It therefore has to contain the most textural detail and this is the part that benefits more from a little sharpening if appliec wisely. An unwise sharpening would add too much detail to (2), thus making the planes flatter. I think I have been good here, I only sharpened just as much as it was needed to balance the AA filtering of the camera. It was a conservative sharpening, that left he way the lens has interpreted the reality, substantially untouched.

Behind the line of trees we have wing four (4) which is the most amazing part of this image in my opinion. Why? Because I shoot this one with a 135mm, which, normally, would just flatten out everthing that is beyond the focal plane.
Here, instead, we can perceive a clear spatial difference not only between (3) and (4), which is normal, but also between (4) and (5), which is NOT normal, and this shows well I think the importance of having those expensive lenses. A normal 135mm would not have brought this out I think. The Elmarit did.

Behind (4) we have two wings of hills, (5) and (6). Here, the Leonardo aerial perspective enters powerfully the play.
Note that the more haze, the less textural detail and the less macrocontrast also.
There is a big different in the macrocontrast of (3) and that of (5) and (6), like we were actually looking at two images made in separate moments, but they are all there at the same time. So yes this is a lucky coincidence where the haze helps, but I think I have shown that from (1) to (4), we have also great great depth perception without the haze playing any role.

So my conclusion after this analysis is that depending on the part of the image, different elements may enter the play and add (or detract!) from the perception of roundness.

In other words, it's not only a concept of "this does that and this does not", but also a concept of "where".



Jun 17, 2007 at 03:41 PM
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