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Archive 2006 · Mixing 3rd Party Batteries

  
 
Ronnell
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p.1 #1 · Mixing 3rd Party Batteries


Anyone experience problems mixing two brands of batteries for their battery grip? I have the standard 5D battery it came with and just purchased an off brand rated at 1500mhz... and although the Ritz guy said it'd be fine... I'm starting to have doubts.

P.S.
I double checked to make sure it wasn't a Sony battery :P




Sep 29, 2006 at 08:58 PM
nathanlake
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p.1 #2 · Mixing 3rd Party Batteries


Why are you having doubts?

I use a couple different manufacturer's batteries in my 1D MII N with no problems.




Sep 29, 2006 at 09:06 PM
AlexPanzer
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p.1 #3 · Mixing 3rd Party Batteries


I use Insten brand 511 batteries for my 10D for over 2 years and I have no problems with them. It is said that 3rd party batteries might overheat/explode but I belive that Insten brand has less chance of this kind of fault that any other battery.


Sep 29, 2006 at 09:36 PM
lancemoreland
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p.1 #4 · Mixing 3rd Party Batteries


I think he is concerned about using batteries with different ratings in a battery grip at the same time.

There should be no problem because as I understand it, power is drawn from only one battery at a time. It alternates back and forth untill both batteries are depleated.



Sep 29, 2006 at 09:37 PM
Tentacle
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p.1 #5 · Mixing 3rd Party Batteries


No, in a Canon grip the batteries are used parallel, not serial. (The Nikon grip apparently uses one after the other.) At least, my 10D with grip will draw from both BP511s simultaneously. I find that, once it's recharging time, both cells have the same amount of charge left in them.

[edit] Hmmm, after re-reading the above, maybe I'm wrong here...

Anyone knows what the manual says on this?

In general, it's still not wise to use batteries with different capacities. It's best to keep rechargable batteries in fixed identical pairs, which even means you should avoid mixing used and new batteries of the same type/model because capacity will slip some over time. Same goes for the 4 AA sets that go into a Speedlite.



Sep 30, 2006 at 02:45 AM
Lars Johnsson
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p.1 #6 · Mixing 3rd Party Batteries


It's ok to mix different batteries in your grip. I did it all the time for a few years in my 10D grip.


Sep 30, 2006 at 03:54 AM
Koivulehto
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p.1 #7 · Mixing 3rd Party Batteries


Tentacle wrote:
No, in a Canon grip the batteries are used parallel, not serial. (The Nikon grip apparently uses one after the other.) At least, my 10D with grip will draw from both BP511s simultaneously. I find that, once it's recharging time, both cells have the same amount of charge left in them.

[edit] Hmmm, after re-reading the above, maybe I'm wrong here...


Well, Nikon camera grip (at least D200) uses first one battery, and then it starts using the next one. This makes it possible to remove the already empty one and charge it while using your camera with 1 (or 2, if you have a 3rd battery) fully charged batteries. Canon camera grips use some method (probably the alternating one as described by Lance on this page), which results having both batteries half-empty (and later on empty) simultaneously. The Nikon way seems to be more practical for the user.

But it is obvious that batteries in both Nikon and Canon camera grips are used electrically similarly, i.e. just one battery is in active use at each moment:
1. They can't work in series connection, because that would double the operating voltage and thus require extra electronics, which would cause extra power losses and unmotivated production cost increase.
2. They can't work actively in parallel connection, because that would require additional electronics (and power losses and extra cost) to balance between the always-existing, even minor cell voltage & impedance differences between the two batteries, even if they are from same manufacturer's same production lot and have identical charge/discharge history.

Anyone knows what the manual says on this?

In general, it's still not wise to use batteries with different capacities. It's best to keep rechargable batteries in fixed identical pairs, which even means you should avoid mixing used and new batteries of the same type/model because capacity will slip some over time. Same goes for the 4 AA sets that go into a Speedlite.


The advice above is not valid for the camera grip lithium battery packs, since they are used independent of each other, as explained above.

Instead, this advice is very valid for sets of any amount of AA batteries which are used simultaneously in series connection, like AA batteries in the AA battery holder of camera grip, in flash unit, in external battery power pack of flash, etc. The reason for this is very simple: In series connection, what you get out of the AA battery set, is the sum of output voltages divided by the sum of internal impedances of each single AA battery, and if you have any individual battery which is weaker than the others (in either respect), it unnecessary limits the performance of the whole set.

Does this sound convincing enough?



Sep 30, 2006 at 04:37 AM
harrygilbert
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p.1 #8 · Mixing 3rd Party Batteries


I have a 5D with BG, and find that one of the two 511a batteries is drawn down before the other, at least based on recharging times.


Sep 30, 2006 at 07:47 AM
Koivulehto
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p.1 #9 · Mixing 3rd Party Batteries


harrygilbert wrote:
I have a 5D with BG, and find that one of the two 511a batteries is drawn down before the other, at least based on recharging times.


Canon has designed the BG to use both batteries in synch, so the obvious explanation to your discovery is that the batteries are not in equal condition - the other one is able to accept a longer recharging time, because of one or multiple of possible reasons.

If you want to test this, wait until your camera shows that battery charge state is some where from half-empty to almost empty, remove one battery at a time from the BG and observe the display about the battery charge state. If the display is clearly different between A battery only and B battery only, then I am wrong in what I have written here.

I just tested my 5D + BG, and it shows one line of charge for either battery alone, but still all lines of charge with both batteries in. I wouldn't call this very logical, but I guess Canon has a different view of this.



Sep 30, 2006 at 08:02 AM
Tentacle
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p.1 #10 · Mixing 3rd Party Batteries


harrygilbert wrote:
I have a 5D with BG, and find that one of the two 511a batteries is drawn down before the other, at least based on recharging times.


Are those 511As identical, as far as use and age go? Because if one is older and/or more used (or not properly maintained) then it should not come as a surprise that actual capacity differs. If one is at 2/3rds of the capacity of the other, you will see some difference in recharge times afterwards.



Sep 30, 2006 at 08:42 AM
Ronnell
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p.1 #11 · Mixing 3rd Party Batteries


Thanks everyone, I really appreciate the input.


Oct 01, 2006 at 11:51 AM
RobinQW
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p.1 #12 · Mixing 3rd Party Batteries


Koivulehto wrote:
1. They can't work in series connection, because that would double the operating voltage and thus require extra electronics, which would cause extra power losses and unmotivated production cost increase.


I agree. Not very likely that the camera has a DC switching capability to handle double the voltage.

Koivulehto wrote:
2. They can't work actively in parallel connection, because that would require additional electronics (and power losses and extra cost) to balance between the always-existing, even minor cell voltage & impedance differences between the two batteries, even if they are from same manufacturer's same production lot and have identical charge/discharge history.


So, my battery grip is smart enough to judge when the battery is low enough to switch to the other battery, but can't just wire the batteries in parallel? Somehow two wires will cause more power loss and extra cost than the low battery switching abilities? If the camera is tolerant of minor differences in voltage and impedance between two batteries when loaded one at a time, why would it suddenly become sensative?

When I use two batteries in my grip, they both need to be recharged whether I use 1/3 or 2/3 of the capacity. The battery indicator in my camera does not go from full to almost out and then back to full when the grip engages the second battery. This would make it very difficult to judge battery capicity when using the grip. It just takes a lot longer to indicate a lower capacity.

I would be surprised if Nikon worked any differently. But, I don't know.



Oct 01, 2006 at 12:18 PM
pthompson
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p.1 #13 · Mixing 3rd Party Batteries


This is interesting; I used a grip with my 10D for over a year, and never did really figure it out. Canon says (somewhere??) that the camera will draw on whichever battery has the fullest charge. That must mean following an off/on sequence, because it obviously is not switching back and forth during a brief period of shooting. A single battery charge was usually ample for the amount of shooting I do in a day, and I almost always had to charge one battery but not the other.

And I always had one Canon and one aftermarket battery of different ratings loaded - without problems - and it was not always the same battery that was drawn down.

It is interesting that these sorts of technical questions persist without clarification from the manufacturers...



Oct 01, 2006 at 01:24 PM
dcains
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p.1 #14 · Mixing 3rd Party Batteries


I think some of you guys are over-complicating the situation. On my XT grip, there is no circuitry present, except passive jumpers that connect the two batteries in parallel. This averages the voltage between any two batteries installed, and sums their mAh ratings. Very simple math, really.

If one, or the other, battery takes longer to charge after the sum of the two is too low to operate the camera, that battery is the one with the lower mAh capacity (whether by design or how long it was charged).

I've got no clue what Nikon's scheme is. And, I regularly mix batteries in my XT, as I have two OEM and several Sterlingtek. I just grab any two that are charged.



Oct 01, 2006 at 04:22 PM
claudermilk
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p.1 #15 · Mixing 3rd Party Batteries


The short answer is it's fine.

I've been using a Sterlingtek 1800Mah beside my Canon 1350Mah nearly since the camera was new with no problems. With those two in the grip, the camera is like the Energizer Bunny, it just keeps shooting & shooting.



Oct 01, 2006 at 05:10 PM
Ronnell
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p.1 #16 · Mixing 3rd Party Batteries


Just make sure they're not Sony batteries :P


Oct 01, 2006 at 11:21 PM
RDKirk
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p.1 #17 · Mixing 3rd Party Batteries


Chuck Westfall indicated in the old Rob Galbraith forums some time ago:

"You're correct that the D30 draws power initially from the battery with the highest voltage when two batteries are used in the BG-ED3 grip. Once the voltages are equalized, the camera draws power from both batteries simultaneously"

This is still visible at: http://www.prophotohome.com/forum/canon-eos-digital-slr-1-6x-sensors/8333-d30-grip-battery-priority.html?highlight=battery+grip

This is where Chuck's comments on the old Rob Galbraith forums have been archived. However, you may have to register on that site to see it.

Chuck's comment indicates that it does not matter whether the two batteries are perfectly equal in capacity (mah)--remember that Canon themselves sell 511-compatibles of various mah, and they don't issue any warnings against mixing them in the battery grips.

I think Chuck's comment is probably oversimplified, however. It's unlikely the grip draws from both batteries truly simultaneously. It's more likely the camera monitors both batteries constantly and switches to the higher power when the one in use drops below a certain point relative to the other, stairstepping downward.



Oct 02, 2006 at 07:13 AM
dcains
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p.1 #18 · Mixing 3rd Party Batteries


Regards the info below, I just don't see the circuitry for any of that to happen. It's not there. Picture two same-sized buckets with different water levels, connected at their lowest points by a Y-shaped hose with an outlet spigot. Open the spigot, and the bucket with the highest level will empty down to the level of the other, then they'll both drop in synch. The higher water level has a greater potential energy, just like a battery with more mAh stored, really.

I'm a trauma nurse and use IV pumps at work all night long. If I have two meds (or 6) that I hang on a pole in IV bags, the one higher up the pole drains first, then the other takes over, just like the buckets, just like the batteries in the grip. It's simple ohysics. You're all making this waaaaay too complicated. Look at your grip, and you'll see that the batteries are connected by jumpers. (+ to +, - to -) The two batteries are connected in parallel.

RDKirk wrote:
Chuck Westfall indicated in the old Rob Galbraith forums some time ago:

"You're correct that the D30 draws power initially from the battery with the highest voltage when two batteries are used in the BG-ED3 grip. Once the voltages are equalized, the camera draws power from both batteries simultaneously"

This is still visible at: http://www.prophotohome.com/forum/canon-eos-digital-slr-1-6x-sensors/8333-d30-grip-battery-priority.html?highlight=battery+grip

This is where Chuck's comments on the old Rob Galbraith forums have been archived. However, you may have to register on that site to see it.

Chuck's comment indicates that it does not matter whether the two batteries are perfectly equal in capacity (mah)--remember that Canon themselves sell 511-compatibles
...Show more



Oct 02, 2006 at 07:48 AM
pthompson
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p.1 #19 · Mixing 3rd Party Batteries


RDKirk wrote:
Chuck Westfall indicated in the old Rob Galbraith forums some time ago:

"You're correct that the D30 draws power initially from the battery with the highest voltage when two batteries are used in the BG-ED3 grip. Once the voltages are equalized, the camera draws power from both batteries simultaneously"


RDKirk - Thanks for this! I looked everywhere last night for this piece of info but could not find it. I knew I had seen it somewhere...



Oct 02, 2006 at 07:52 AM
Koivulehto
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p.1 #20 · Mixing 3rd Party Batteries


dcains wrote:
I think some of you guys are over-complicating the situation. On my XT grip, there is no circuitry present, except passive jumpers that connect the two batteries in parallel. This averages the voltage between any two batteries installed, and sums their mAh ratings. Very simple math, really.


Did you open the grip covers, or can you see the jumper wires inside the grip through the battery compartment? On my 5D grip I can't, and I am not willing to open the covers having many small screws.

If the two batteries are jumper-wired in parallel, then Chuck's description is very accurate: Immediately after insertion of the second battery, the battery with a higher initial voltage starts to rapid-charge the other battery with a current, which is equal to the difference of battery output voltages divided by the sum of their internal impedances.

If there is nothing extra inside the batteries and in the jumper wires to limit the charging current, the output voltages of batteries equalize themselves instantly, since the internal impedances are small. (If you connect two car batteries in parallel, the sparks you see when making the connection are caused by the heavy current flowing from the higher voltage battery to the lower voltage battery.)

Obviously this discussion is mainly academic, since you and I and many others successfully mix and match lithium-ion batteries which have some output voltage differencies.



Oct 02, 2006 at 11:38 AM
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