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Archive 2006 · •Hands-On• EOS 400D/XTi Body

  
 
Wild Lens
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p.8 #1 · •Hands-On• EOS 400D/XTi Body


Wild Lens wrote:
The biggest disappointment of the 400D is the lack of an image stabiliser on the body. They could have put it in but simply do not want to.

Vladimir Yanushkevich wrote:

And it is quite obviousely - why. In-body IS would remove the edge with competition who do not have optical IS: Tamron, Tokina and (partially) Sigma.
It would easily kill or dramatically decrease the sales of 17-55/2.8 since its most attractive feature is a combination of its 2.8 + IS (for low-light, indoors etc.) with very good high-ISO of Canon EOS-digital...


Oh yes the strategy is crystal clear. But I was thinking of the masses ... people who worked hard, saved money and buy their stuff only to realise that things have changed against their favour. What has become of this world? Short term gains.. Diminishing forests, global warming, dwindling natural resources.. whither are we headed? Everything is interconnected. Sorry for deviating. I will stop right here and now.



Oct 03, 2006 at 03:25 AM
gfiksel
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p.8 #2 · •Hands-On• EOS 400D/XTi Body


Wild Lens wrote:
The biggest disappointment of the 400D is the lack of an image stabiliser on the body. They could have put it in but simply do not want to.


1. Why do you think they could have put it in? Because of the dust cleaning thing? As you have noticed the dust is taken care of by simply shaking a part of the AA-filter by simple vibration. No sensor motion is involved, no feedback compensation. To implement that means a new R&D and design. There no evidence that Canon has been doing it.

2. Would you be willing to pay a few hundred $$ for that feature?

3. I wouldn't be so sure that would be a wiser investment and less money waste. The way things are going now cameras are much more expandable than lenses. You buy a 24-105IS - you keep it for years to come. You buy a new camera - you upgrade it in one year.



Oct 03, 2006 at 08:49 AM
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p.8 #3 · •Hands-On• EOS 400D/XTi Body


Wild Lens wrote:
Oh yes the strategy is crystal clear. But I was thinking of the masses ... people who worked hard, saved money and buy their stuff only to realise that things have changed against their favour. What has become of this world? Short term gains.. Diminishing forests, global warming, dwindling natural resources.. whither are we headed? Everything is interconnected. Sorry for deviating. I will stop right here and now.


Fully agree. We are in the days of "limited customer care", just to the degree to get enough $$$s from our pockets to feed vendor's profit and those young people at NASDAQ...



Oct 03, 2006 at 09:16 AM
joebee
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p.8 #4 · •Hands-On• EOS 400D/XTi Body


Wild Lens wrote:
The biggest disappointment of the 400D is the lack of an image stabiliser on the body.

The in Camera IS would only be fully effective on lenses under 100mm. Read the white paper. Yes it would be a plus. The next question would be how do you turn it off. Canon would most likely impliment the turn off to work automaticly with their lenses. This might obsloete the Sigma 80-400 OS or the new OS lens they showed at Photokina. You would not want 2 IS systems working at the same time.

Since the main benifit of IS is at longer focal lengths and lens based systems will always be superior to camera based, I don't feel great disappointment.



Oct 03, 2006 at 10:55 AM
realkuhl
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p.8 #5 · •Hands-On• EOS 400D/XTi Body


I don't agree at all. Look at the black and grey crayon on the upper left box - on my calibrated monitor I see quite a bit more smuge in the D80 shot compared to the Rebel.

MPerdomo wrote:
From reports coming in, the new DRebel is pretty similar in noise to the D80:

At 1600, the Rebel:
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/XTI/FULLRES/XTIhSLI01600.HTM

At 1600, the D80:
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/D80/FULLRES/D80hSLI1600.HTM

The noise playing field looks like it might be leveled this generation




Oct 03, 2006 at 11:20 AM
Johno
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p.8 #6 · •Hands-On• EOS 400D/XTi Body


joebee wrote:
The next question would be how do you turn it off. Canon would most likely impliment the turn off to work automaticly with their lenses. This might obsloete the Sigma 80-400 OS or the new OS lens they showed at Photokina. You would not want 2 IS systems working at the same time.
.


Ehhh... not too hard a question to answer that, (particularly if you own and use one) - use the off switch on the IS lens, leave the in body on



Oct 03, 2006 at 03:11 PM
greeneggs
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p.8 #7 · •Hands-On• EOS 400D/XTi Body


Or turn off the in-body IS when working with a Sigma OS lens. There's no rocket science here, just economics.


Oct 03, 2006 at 06:53 PM
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p.8 #8 · •Hands-On• EOS 400D/XTi Body


joebee wrote:
The in Camera IS would only be fully effective on lenses under 100mm. Read the white paper.
{quote]

Please don't let Canon's propaganda to mislead you. I had PERSONALLY TRIED A100+500/8 Mirror combination (750mm effective). With some minor cautions you can shoot down to 1/125s without risk of visible blur. Means AS (or SSS) gives you 2 extra stop EVEN WITH ULTRA-TELE...




Oct 04, 2006 at 03:10 AM
go4it
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p.8 #9 · •Hands-On• EOS 400D/XTi Body


Chris Chant,

Calumet is a great, GREAT store - winglet of the Calumet chain out of Chicago. They are pretty much geared to the "pro".

If you're in Boston and can get transportation (we drive on the PROPER side of the road over here in the "Colonies"!!!!) here's some information you might want to copy or print out.

Hunt's Photo and Video
100 Main Street
Melrose, MA USA Postal code: 02176-6104

(You can enter this address on www.mapquest.com and print yourself an easy-to-read-map for arrival in Boston)

Toll Free Phone: (From anywhere within the USA except "local"): 1-800-924-8682

Local Phone (Boston area): (781) 662-8822

Hours of Business:
Monday - Saturday: 8:00 -20:00.
Sunday: 11:00 - 17:00

eMail Us (Them!). Perhaps you can inquire of your needs, check inventory - even reserve item(s) with a credit card number - before leaving the UK .....

Ask for the complete price - actual item price plus state / local taxation. This might be an additional 8-10 percent in addition to an Internet or telephone price quote. Just so you're not taken by surprise by an added +/- 10 percent at the time of sale ... (Bloody taxes!!!! Clearly, we didn't throw enough tea overboard in Boston Harbour!!!!!).

[email protected]

Not positive but sure they accept Visa (ChargEx?), MasterCard (BarclayCard?) - possibly American Express and Diner's Club. You can e-mail them in advance and ask ... Our names are a bit different from those used in the UK so it might be wise to ask.

==========

Good luck!!!

Rgds,



Oct 04, 2006 at 05:43 PM
JRMDC
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p.8 #10 · •Hands-On• EOS 400D/XTi Body


Wild Lens wrote:
The other big disappointment is that 70-200 F with IS. Think of those who bought those with no IS. How can Canon do such a thing to their users? Put an IS in the body system and it would be a perfect match for the non-IS 70-200F4 and 400 5.6 L. but then their kind of economic thinking do not permit it.


I read stuff like this and I feel that there is a huge, huge gulf between people sometimes. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Canon improves a product and you argue, what, they shouldn't, out of some some sort of, I don't know, respect for past customer purchases? Existing equipment owners suffer, what, harm of some sort, loss of face, because Canon "do such a thing"?

And where was the bad decision, anyway, Canon coming out with the IS now, or Canon failing to come out with the IS years ago, when the 70-200/4 non-IS came out? Maybe the mistake was bringing out that lens in 1999 (date from wiki), maybe the last 7 years of lens enjoyment is outweighed by the harm suffered today because the IS came out?

Maybe putting airbags in cars was all wrong, because of all the people driving cars without them.

Excuse the occasional sarcasm, actually not that much in my view, but I just don't understand your point of view!



Oct 05, 2006 at 04:12 PM
joezasada
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p.8 #11 · •Hands-On• EOS 400D/XTi Body


I tried one out...

Pros:
-great image quality
-size, build, all seem good
-quiet shutter

Cons:
-no LCD to display camera settings other than the monitor. Granted, this helps lower the price on an entry-level camera, and the camera still does everything... but it just seems lacking.

Would I reccommend one? yes... but if someone wanted to shoot sports, news, concerts, or weddings, where fast adjustment to manual setting was essential - I'de push them towards the 30D or better... the lack of the LCD display will hurt sales of the camera as a "backup" or "second body" for established pros - but the lower price point will increase sales for amateurs. tough call... but in the end it will lead to more sales...



Oct 06, 2006 at 11:56 AM
UCSB
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p.8 #12 · •Hands-On• EOS 400D/XTi Body


joezasada wrote:
I tried one out...

Pros:
-great image quality
-size, build, all seem good
-quiet shutter

Cons:
-no LCD to display camera settings other than the monitor. Granted, this helps lower the price on an entry-level camera, and the camera still does everything... but it just seems lacking.

Would I reccommend one? yes... but if someone wanted to shoot sports, news, concerts, or weddings, where fast adjustment to manual setting was essential - I'de push them towards the 30D or better... the lack of the LCD display will hurt sales of the camera as a "backup" or "second body" for established pros - but the lower price point
...Show more

After you use the large LCD screen for exposure and control data for a short time, you do not want to go back to a small monochrome LCD. I think that displaying data on the main screen will obsolete the small monochrome screens quickly ... you just grow to hate them after using this new option.



Oct 06, 2006 at 12:49 PM
joebee
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p.8 #13 · •Hands-On• EOS 400D/XTi Body


UCSB wrote:
After you use the large LCD screen for exposure and control data for a short time, you do not want to go back to a small monochrome LCD. I think that displaying data on the main screen will obsolete the small monochrome screens quickly ... you just grow to hate them after using this new option.


I could not agree more. The main screen displays iso,metering mode, and many other settings in a very readable format. I would give Canon two thumbs up for this change.



Oct 06, 2006 at 09:55 PM
UCSB
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p.8 #14 · •Hands-On• EOS 400D/XTi Body


Adobe has released a version 3.6 BETA of Adobe Camera Raw which supports the XTi, here is the link:

http://www.adobe.com/support/downloads/detail.jsp?ftpID=3542

Is anyone using Phase One Capture One Pro 3.7.5? Has the color problem with the XTi been solved?



Oct 07, 2006 at 01:49 AM
joebee
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p.8 #15 · •Hands-On• EOS 400D/XTi Body


UCSB wrote:
Is anyone using Phase One Capture One Pro 3.7.5? Has the color problem with the XTi been solved?

I use C1 and have not noticed this issue. Can you link to the info? I would like to look again at the images i have taken with the XTi again.




Oct 07, 2006 at 07:39 AM
UCSB
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p.8 #16 · •Hands-On• EOS 400D/XTi Body


Thanks joebee for the quick answer. I'll upgrade to 3.7.5. Sorry, I noticed the color comments while researching the XTi purchase and did not keep a link. Don't worry about the color, I'm sure Phase One did a good job. Hopefully, my primary RAW converter, DxO will release XTi support soon also.


Oct 07, 2006 at 12:42 PM
khurram1
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p.8 #17 · •Hands-On• EOS 400D/XTi Body


i'll add in my two cents of my xti experience.

I purchased the xti on my way to Moab to serve as a backup for my 1DIIN for my trip through Moab, monument valley, sedona, page, bryce, tetons and yellowstone. I've got to say it saved me during the end of my trip, coz i managed to smudge the sensor on my 1dIIN while cleaning with the eclipse solution/swabs and ran out of swabs.

My first impressiions of the files are very positive - although i shot predominately at ISO 100, with some at 200 and 400 (still going through the files, so can't post definitive experience yet).

This is my first experience with a rebel body - in the old film cameras i did have expereince with the 10s, A2E, elan 7e/7n consumer level bodies. I have to say that build wise, i am not to impressed - particularly with the lack of sealing for the CF compartment. I realize that this is a consumer entry level DSLR, but do think that a little bit more sealing should have been done for the CF card compartment, as in the slot canyons i managed to get dust in there - despite, never opening the compartment in the field (was using a 4gig card).

I don't really like the control layout at all. It is way to easy to change the AF mode, ISO setting, WB and metering. And i absolutely hate how the Aperture controls when shooting in manual mode (99% of my shooting is done in the manual mode). but i guess being an entry level camera, a lot of users are going to be using the auto modes, which do limit manually setting these controls. I have to admit i do like the large shooting data lcd layout on the back, but have to get used to how it turns off.

The camera body without the grip is VERY small, so i returned the RRS L-Plate i had ordered while i was on my trip to exchange for the L-plate to be used with the batter grip - which was a terrible idea. my battery grip just arrivved today, and i have to say, this is by far the WORST battery grip i have ever had - and i have had a grip extention for every camera i've owned with the exception of the Pentax SF1n and Nikon F801. shooting vertically, it is OK, but it is very awkward to hold. Just a terrible design, which doesn't make a lot of sense, since making grip extensions is not exactly something new for canon. I think if i hadn't sent back my L-plate for exchange to RRS in exchange for the L-plate that is built for the camera/grip combo, i would have returned the battery grip.

One featue that i think there is no excuse for excluding on any camera is spot metering. I had the same gripe for all my consumer level canon film cameras. I may be wrong but i think all of nikons digital cameras have spot metering.

The dust removal function does work - but is not infallible. I didn't use the dust data mapping most of the time, mainly because, i didn't remember to take the test shot, so i'm not sure how well it works. One additinal feature i think canon should have added was a way to remove dust on a series of shots that have the dust in the same place - after the fact. it would have been nice to be able to go into DPP identify dust in one shot, and then copy that mapping to a number of other shots.

I suppose with a bit more experience using the camera, i may actually get in the habit of taking a test shot to map the dust data before a shoot, but it would be nice to be able to use dust data in a shot in dpp and then copy that information to other shots that have dust in the same place.

As the 1DIIn was my first digital camera, i have to say that i found 3fps of the xti and the burst rate too slow for wildlife. I think 3fps woudl have been fine on a film camera, but is to slow for digital. but again, for the price it is adequte.

Overall, it is a good camera for most consumers looking for an entry level body, but if it didn't have the dust removal feature, i would have bought the 30d as a backup. When canon gets around to replacing the 5D and adding the dust removal feature, i doubt i'll be hanging on to the xti. but for now, for the price, it will serve as an adequete backup for most situations.



Oct 08, 2006 at 02:23 PM
24Peter
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p.8 #18 · •Hands-On• EOS 400D/XTi Body


I guess I'll chime in as well. The XTi I bought last week to replace/update my XT will be returned this week.
I've owned my XT for 1 1/2 yrs and overall still feel it's a great camera. I started using the battery grip recently to make it easier to balance the camera with my 430EX on top and my 70-200 F4 L on front, and while not perfect, the BG-3 has helped with the ergonomics of the camera given the small grip.

The only real problem I have with my XT is the AF on it. In good light I generally get 75-80% shots in focus, while in low light it can be as low as 50-60%. (This is pretty much across all my lenses.) I rented a 5D last year and was amazed at how well that camera focused - 90-95% good shots in all but the worst light (I also used my same lenses on the 5D). So I've been biding my time waiting to see what Canon was gonna do next before upgrading. When the only thing that came out of Photokina was the XTi, after reading everyone else's views in this thread I figured I'd pick one up to use for the next six months or so until the new bodies come out. So I picked one up last Thursday for a shoot on Friday.

1. Dust removal - this is the biggest joke/disappointment going. If this is what we have to look forward to from Canon on this issue forget it. Here's a photo taken after the auto sensor cleaning ran at least 20-30 times (dust courtesy of Canon's factory):

http://photos.imageevent.com/24peter/upload2/huge/XTi%20Dust%20test%20before.JPG

Not so impressive. Now here's the image after manually cleaning the sensor using the $2 Canon rubber bulb lens blower I've been using on my XT for the last year.

http://photos.imageevent.com/24peter/upload2/huge/XTi%20dust%20test%20after.JPG

15 seconds of using the blower cleaned the sensor almost perfectly. 20-30 auto cleanings apparently did nothing - except run down my battery. Turned that puppy off in the menu and never thought about Canon's dust removal system again.

2. Underexposure - I'm not ready to post my images from the photo shoot Friday but I can echo what I've read elsewhere that the XTi has the tendency to (sometimes at least) underexpose the image. My XT does this as well (maybe 2/3 to 1 stop at times) but the XTi was worse (maybe 1- 1 1/2 stops in certain situations.) The problem itself isn't so terrible but add #3 below and it makes this problem much worse.

3. Noise - I don't care what Canon's techies are saying - the XTi's images are noiser than the XT. It's most noticeable as chroma noise in the shadows and - on all those underexposed shots - skin tones of my subjects. I was shocked to see how noisy the images were and found myself - for the first time in 1 1/2 yrs - using noise reduction software on my images.

4. Resolution - the jump from 8MP to 10MP is completely unnoticeable to me except in terms of file size. Given the noise problem from cramming all those extra photo sites onto the XTi's sensor, it is IMO more of hinderance to IQ than help.

5. Sharpness - I didn't really play with the Picture Styles when I rented the 5D since I only had it for the weekend. But I did do some testing prior to my shoot with the XTi and then had 600 images to compare after the shoot with my XT. The images on the XTi were decidedly less sharp than my XT (focus problems notwithstanding) using a sharpness setting of "5" on the XTi (again using all the same lenses on both cameras). There was an inherent softness/blurriness on all the XTi photos regardless of the lens. That alone is a deal breaker for me. I didn't try to go higher on the sharpness setting b/c I didn't want to use the camera any more since I'm returning it but would have thought a sharpness setting of 5 out of 7 would have given me some nice shots.

6. AF - the AF on the XTi is better than the XT in all lighting conditions. But what good are well focused shots if they're all slightly soft and fuzzy?

7. LCD screen - great for sharing photos with other people during a shoot. But I didn't find it had enough resolution to be useful in judging whether shots were in focus or not (I mean after zooming in). Also I don't like the bright white camera settings screen. i found it distracting when it kept coming on prior to reviewing my images. If the same info took up half the LCD that would make it more useable for me.

I've taken nearly 40,000 photos with my XT and in fact had another shoot today with it. I am continually impressed by the IQ - low noise, sharp photos. I just wish the AF were better. Now I'm wating on the 5D successor(s) to see what my next body will be.






Oct 08, 2006 at 11:47 PM
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p.8 #19 · •Hands-On• EOS 400D/XTi Body


This is not the dust, but wet dirt spots. There's now way to "dry-clean" them out, only wet cleaning helps. Send it to Canon SC and they must clean it for ffree for you. Then you'll be able to judge the "anti-dust" feature...


Oct 09, 2006 at 06:00 AM
gfiksel
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p.8 #20 · •Hands-On• EOS 400D/XTi Body


vyanush wrote:
This is not the dust, but wet dirt spots. There's now way to "dry-clean" them out, only wet cleaning helps. Send it to Canon SC and they must clean it for ffree for you. Then you'll be able to judge the "anti-dust" feature...


I don't think so, as they were cleaned nicely by a blower



Oct 09, 2006 at 01:42 PM
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