RustyRus wrote:
Can we be honest for a minute here-
For the M11/M11p/D owners-
What needs to be fixed? For Manual Focus photography, its about as close to perfect as it gets. I feel like the M11p is already the Leica MP-
Dreaming here...
- sensor with wider latitude so one could Sunny/16 like it was a film camera without risking blowing highlights. For now I've gotten lazy and just run the camera on aperture-priority now
- physical EV setting knob so I can see at a glance what it's set to instead of looking through the viewfinder or screen
Fred Miranda wrote:
A stacked (or hybrid) sensor is a cool feature for modern mirrorless cameras, and I understand why a lot of people want the Leica M to get all the new technologies...including IBIS. But what's special about the Leica M is its mechanical link to the past, specifically to film cameras. Shooting a mechanical rangefinder with a real shutter and purely mechanical lenses is a fundamentally different experience.
I'd say, let Leica put the new tech into their mirrorless lines - the SL, the Q series, or even a separate M-like body the way they did with the EV1. The classic M should remain a mechanical camera. Once you keep a real shutter and mechanical operation, an electronic shutter that benefits from a stacked sensor largely loses its point. Learning to brace the camera properly for longer shutter speeds is a technique worth mastering, rather than relying entirely on IBIS the way we do with most other cameras.
When the Leica M was first introduced, two of the reasons it was so highly regarded were its exceptionally low shutter vibration compared with the SLRs of the time, and the complete absence of viewfinder blackout due to the lack of a mirror. Those advantages remain just as relevant today.So what meaningful upgrades can Leica actually add to the M12 while still preserving that mechanical link to the past? In my view, not many...which makes the current rumors feel entirely plausible....Show more →
If they leave the mechanical shutter in place, a stacked sensor with equal DR can only be an advantage. It's not like we're going to get a discount for Leica continuing to use the old M11 sensor.
I think if Leica had kept the M10/M10-R shutter and metering, I'd be more enthusiastic about keeping the mechanical shutter. That shutter is discrete, quiet, and satisfying to use. If we're stuck with the M11 shutter from now on, then they might as well shoot that dead horse, IMO.
And that's the cool part of the 67mp sensor, it has a very improved DR with mech shutter and a fast enough readout for flexible eshutter use.
It would be a perfect fit for the SL4.
highdesertmesa wrote:
If they leave the mechanical shutter in place, a stacked sensor with equal DR can only be an advantage. It's not like we're going to get a discount for Leica continuing to use the old M11 sensor.
I think if Leica had kept the M10/M10-R shutter and metering, I'd be more enthusiastic about keeping the mechanical shutter. That shutter is discrete, quiet, and satisfying to use. If we're stuck with the M11 shutter from now on, then they might as well shoot that dead horse, IMO.
rsolti13 wrote:
Leica has already stated they are working with someone else on their own sensor for M12, not Sony this time. Chinese company - Gpixel
I think the Gpixel announcement if it ever truly comes to be, is further down the road after the "base" M12 release. I don't know either way, but I've not read/heard anyone from Leica say the M12 will come with the new Gpixel sensor.
RustyRus wrote:
Can we be honest for a minute here-
For the M11/M11p/D owners-
What needs to be fixed? For Manual Focus photography, its about as close to perfect as it gets. I feel like the M11p is already the Leica MP-
The M11 has been fixed, fixed and re-fixed for years. Ha! The current iteration is just right. I think the M12 or whatever the nomenclature turns out to be will be more than what the current rumor describes. But not sure the M12 rumor mill has fully kicked in yet--I suspect more to come. Or, I hope more to come 😎
There will be very little the M12 can do to make me give up my M11. "Famous last words"
RoamingScott wrote:
Does "this economy" apply to Leica enthusiasts? Feels like the luxury market is still pretty healthy.
Those same people are dropping $2000 on Chinese knockoffs with 0 reviews, after all.
From my little corner(s) of the world, seems majority Leica owners/enthusiasts I know of are photographers from every walk of life and not many it turns out are medical doctors, dentists or lawyers either.
I don’t need a stacked sensor in the M12. EFCS would do the same job. Remove shutter shock and speed up the shutter mechanism while also making it quieter.
RoamingScott wrote:
And that's the cool part of the 67mp sensor, it has a very improved DR with mech shutter and a fast enough readout for flexible eshutter use.
LBJ2 wrote:
From my little corner(s) of the world, seems majority Leica owners/enthusiasts I know of are photographers from every walk of life and not many it turns out are medical doctors, dentists or lawyers either.
People will drop $20K on a higher end full frame system with 5-6 lenses, and no one ever questions that (or one body and one high end birding telephoto). But if you drop $20K on a Leica M body and a few Leica M lenses, and all of a sudden you're a wealthy jerk.
highdesertmesa wrote:
If they leave the mechanical shutter in place, a stacked sensor with equal DR can only be an advantage. It's not like we're going to get a discount for Leica continuing to use the old M11 sensor.
I think if Leica had kept the M10/M10-R shutter and metering, I'd be more enthusiastic about keeping the mechanical shutter. That shutter is discrete, quiet, and satisfying to use. If we're stuck with the M11 shutter from now on, then they might as well shoot that dead horse, IMO.
I've been shooting almost exclusively with the M11-D lately, and honestly, I don't find the shutter sound all that much louder or different than the M10-R. While the M10-R is definitely quieter and simpler (open/close), the M11-D has a really satisfying feel to it. It's hard to put into words, but it almost has this acoustic "reverb" quality to the sound.
I agree completely that adding a stacked sensor doesn't ruin the mechanical shutter experience in itself, but it introduces a slippery slope. It entices people to rely solely on the electronic shutter for many applications like street work, which completely strips away that tactile feel I mentioned. Half the magic of shooting an M is the physical commitment of the mechanical click.
Fred Miranda wrote:
I've been shooting almost exclusively with the M11-D lately, and honestly, I don't find the shutter sound all that much louder or different than the M10-R. While the M10-R is definitely quieter and simpler (open/close), the M11-D has a really satisfying feel to it. It's hard to put into words, but it almost has this acoustic "reverb" quality to the sound.
I agree completely that adding a stacked sensor doesn't ruin the mechanical shutter experience in itself, but it introduces a slippery slope. It entices people to rely solely on the electronic shutter for many applications like street work, which completely strips away that tactile feel I mentioned. Half the magic of shooting an M is the physical commitment of the mechanical click. ...Show more →
Adding EFCS to the M11 would also put us back in M10 shutter territory, but Leica seems determined to never give us that option.
It's been a while since I had the M11-D, but I wonder if the solid rear of the camera transfers less of the vibrations to the user versus the LCD or otherwise works to better muffle the shutter sound.
Fred Miranda wrote:
Half the magic of shooting an M is the physical commitment of the mechanical click.
We all experience things differently. For you, this is important and I respect that.
But I do not care: a 100% silent M would be perfect for me.
Same for what you said above about learning to hold you M to minimize vibrations. After several decades of using one, I know how to do it.
In the film days, I was able to shoot a 35mm at 1/4 sec.
But with a modern sensor and for street photography, IBIS would be great.
As I said above, Leica should offer the choice: a classic M and something more modern. Neither the Q nor the SL are it. Something like a Sony A7C with a SL sensor, a L mount and a M adapter but a better viewfinder would be great for instance. It would be a perfect 2nd body, complementing a M with a 28, 35 or 50 and sometimes replacing it.
highdesertmesa wrote:
New M bodies passing the $10K mark could be causing folks to shift their camera budget toward lenses.
Perhaps, but if you're looking to get into the M system, you still need to buy a camera, and Leica is really the only choice. Sure, used options exist... and this is apparently Leica's current 'entry level' camera strategy.
Some things are certain: death, taxes and Leica annual price increases.
highdesertmesa wrote:
Regardless of what happens with the processors moving forward, I can't imagine they wouldn't put the existing Maestro IV from the SL3/Q3 into the M12.
Regarding a new processor, Leica will have to figure that out for the SL4/Q4, which they will.
Last I heard Leica and some other brands were trying to port over to the very powerfull Qualcom processor. So far, no one has been successful. Sony has a super powerful purpose built processor but won't share with anyone. It is a huge issue for many including the industry.
chiron wrote:
As I read this post, I thought to myself that so many of these things are now available in the Sony A7CR, which, apart from the built-in grip, is actually smaller and lighter than the M-11. And the A7CRII, when it gets here, will go further in facilitative and image-quality features. This is what makes it hard for me to think about going into the Leica M series, despite the good photographers who love it, and the undeniable appeal of the brand and of the Leica fellowship.
The thing that no one else has is the Range Finder with the experience that brings and the esthetic that results from that.
pmeheut wrote:
We all experience things differently. For you, this is important and I respect that.
But I do not care: a 100% silent M would be perfect for me.
Same for what you said above about learning to hold you M to minimize vibrations. After several decades of using one, I know how to do it.
In the film days, I was able to shoot a 35mm at 1/4 sec.
But with a modern sensor and for street photography, IBIS would be great.
As I said above, Leica should offer the choice: a classic M and something more modern. Neither the Q nor the SL are it. Something like a Sony A7C with a SL sensor, a L mount and a M adapter but a better viewfinder would be great for instance. It would be a perfect 2nd body, complementing a M with a 28, 35 or 50 and sometimes replacing it.
If Leica made a rangefinder-style SL body with a 5.Xm dot EVF and IBIS that was close in size to an M body, it would satisfy me enough to replace a digital M body permanently. I wish they'd done that instead of making the EV1.
I'm still at a loss as to why Panasonic has not made such a camera, especially one with analog dials on the top plate – basically a full-frame Fujifilm X-Pro with L mount.
LBJ2 wrote:
I think the Gpixel announcement if it ever truly comes to be, is further down the road after the "base" M12 release. I don't know either way, but I've not read/heard anyone from Leica say the M12 will come with the new Gpixel sensor.
It might allow for a proper M12-P 'Pro' version that isn't just superficial/cosmetic upgrades.
But if a new sensor and processor package is still a few years away, it sounds more like M13 timeframe.
While the likes of Nikon and maybe Panasonic are somewhat at the mercy of Sony's technology handouts and have less ability to defer providing their user base 'real' upgrades in a more tightly spaced upgrade cycle, Leica can get away with recycling the existing sensor and processor in the M12 with otherwise 'quality of life' updates to further refine the user experience. The customer base is less specs/tech driven and those who sit out such an M12 may be rewarded for their patience with a more substantially revised M13. But that's still ~5-6 years away (M11 was January 2022 already). None of us are getting any younger and for some, another 5 years is too long to wait while the sun sets.
flash wrote:
I don’t need a stacked sensor in the M12. EFCS would do the same job. Remove shutter shock and speed up the shutter mechanism while also making it quieter.
I wouldn’t say no to IBIS though.
Gordon
You will not get IBIS with a mechanical shutter and you won't be able to remove the shutter without a very fast sensor. Leica has recognized that if the company is to remain viable that is the direction it must take.
