SlowDriver wrote:
FWIW, according to Google, there seems to be some shared DNA between Gpixel and CMOSIS, the company that provided sensors to Leica in the past and that was based in Antwerp, Belgium:
"Gpixel's European design center—located in Antwerp, Belgium—was largely established by key staff and alumni from CMOSIS and Fillfactory. Several of Gpixel's founders and top executives previously held key scientist and engineering roles at CMOSIS."
Interesting that Gpixel has a specialty and successful history with very fast sensors, including Global Sensors.
Directly from Leica Leadership, it will be a very very fast sensor and will come as a surprise to many. I don't know what that means...
LBJ2 wrote:
To your edited comment. This is not the first time I've seen some questionable IQ images posted made with some non Leica APO L-Mount zooms for some time now both before and after the SL3-P. Could be due to many reasons of course to include the lens itself, I don't know. But as mentioned there have been numerous complaints about shutter shock with some of these zooms.
Having shot infinity landscapes in the 100-600mm range for years with different systems:
First, manually focus if you want 100% keepers. Atmosphere can fool even the best AF cameras and telephotos at infinity. It's a very slim difference but noticeable if shot side by side with manual focus (high res camera, high magnification review in post). Secondly, use the electronic shutter even with cameras that have EFCS. At 400-600mm, infinity sharpness is consistently better with ES. This is one reason I stopped shooting the Canon R5 + 100-500 because the R5 only offered 12-bit for ES. I'm glad they offer 14-bit again with the Mark II.
I don't know if this has anything at all to do with what others experience, just my anecdotal observations.
LBJ2 wrote:
Contrary to what we read from some on the forum, I think(IMO) the SL3 sold relatively well. Not so much the SL3-S ( which btw never went out of stock from what I observed), but the SL3 was out of stock everywhere for months ( hence my arm-chair analytics) . * I was however told the SL2-S sold more than the SL2 but overall the SL2 system sold well as we can see by who else has these cameras. AKA the SL system has sold at least enough for Leica to continue to invest and further the system. The new SL3-P again is encouraging for the SL system ( let's see if it goes out of stock any time soon). And all those practical and smaller Leica SL primes and zooms that have come out in the last few years might indicate Leica is considering mirrorless mainstream at some point. Or maybe premium mirrorless mainstream 😎...Show more →
I think I agree with your arm-chair analysis. It is also my impression that the Leica SL bodies, except indeed the SL3-S, were decent sellers. That being said, I think the main (perceived) sales issue is with the lenses. The last Leica designed lens before the current announcement was the APO Summicron-SL 21mm released in 2023 (but already announced in 2018). A lot of people simply only shoot M-lenses and Sigma/Panasonic lenses on an SL and for Leica, although short-sighted in my opinion, rebadging a Sigma or Panasonic lens requires much less R&D and the profit margin is often very high, just compare the $497.99 (with discount even $347.99 last week) of the Panasonic LUMIX S 50mm f/1.8 Lens with the $2,350.00 of the Leica Summicron-SL 50mm f/2 ASPH.
rscheffler wrote:
Based on the DPReview hands-on review, it generally sounds like a Canon R6 level camera with more resolution. That's generally not a bad thing as the 6 series is a versatile camera. It's just not quite the all-rounder powerhouse of the R5II (or Nikon Z8), as also noted in their review.
The image sample gallery that accompanies the review unfortunately has only a few photos with the new 50 Lux, and of those, none were shot wide open, and only one at f/2. But the photo of the model in the car is very sharp at f/5.6.
What absolutely did not impress me was how the 100-400 performed for the car racing photos. It's just not sharp, even in static images where AF should not be a factor, compared to the 24-90 photos. Maybe it was a bad copy of the lens?...Show more →
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rscheffler wrote:
^ That wouldn't fully explain the image quality deficits with the 100-400. First of all, there are shots in the pits/paddock area that are basically static and are not what I would consider acceptably sharp yet images with the 24-90 are. Thinking of some of the on-track shots - cars coming straight at the camera, a shutter speed of 1/1000 is sufficient but again nothing in the image is critically sharp. Here the other explanation could be heat coming off the track, which certainly will be somewhat of a factor. Having shot motorsports myself, I'm aware of the challenges and while his panning technique needs practice, I didn't see any obvious technique faults in the more conventional head-on car shots.
As for the camera itself: I think it reveals that Leica/Panasonic just need access to a competitive stacked sensor and processor package to potentially release a camera that can perform at the level of the R5II, Z8/Z9, a1/a9, etc.
Sony provided Nikon with a stacked sensor that rivals the one in the a1 series. I'm curious what, if anything, is preventing similar access for Leica/Panasonic? Based on previous discussions here, it sounds like Leica wants to source their own sensors in the future. Maybe access roadblocks are a reason?...Show more →
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LBJ2 wrote:
To your edited comment. This is not the first time I've seen some questionable IQ images posted made with some non Leica APO L-Mount zooms for some time now both before and after the SL3-P. Could be due to many reasons of course to include the lens itself, I don't know. But as mentioned there have been numerous complaints about shutter shock with some of these zooms.
I’m the number 1 squeaky wheel on LuF regarding EFCS. I’ve tested extensively and while the SL3 is better and FW4 is bettter again it does have some shutter shock. It just daft not to add EFCS to Leica cameras.
Also, there is some copy variation in the Sigma built Leica lenses. I returned my first 100-400 as it wasn’t close to my Sigma version. The second one I got is better than my Sigma version. Sigma still has occasional issues with consistency so I test them thoroughly.
I shoot my SL3 on ES as often as possible. EFCS is the only reason I have the S1Rii and I’ll be testing very carefully between it and the SL3-P next week. I will also have the. Sigma 300-600 in both mounts so I’ll also test against my Sony A7R5 and A1ii’s, which are my bench mark.
Best guess so far is the Leica will be OK for anything short of fast movement like birds in flight. It’s whether the blackout is too annoying.
SlowDriver wrote:
I think I agree with your arm-chair analysis. It is also my impression that the Leica SL bodies, except indeed the SL3-S, were decent sellers. That being said, I think the main (perceived) sales issue is with the lenses. The last Leica designed lens before the current announcement was the APO Summicron-SL 21mm released in 2023 (but already announced in 2018). A lot of people simply only shoot M-lenses and Sigma/Panasonic lenses on an SL and for Leica, although short-sighted in my opinion, rebadging a Sigma or Panasonic lens requires much less R&D and the profit margin is often very high, just compare the $497.99 (with discount even $347.99 last week) of the Panasonic LUMIX S 50mm f/1.8 Lens with the $2,350.00 of the Leica Summicron-SL 50mm f/2 ASPH....Show more →
Apart from the missing APO 24 mm what lenses do Leica need? Sigma cover the long glass and we have a really competitive set of telescope from them. The 24-90 still holds up 10 years later. You might shave a few grams but you’ll also loose the characteristics of it. The 90-280 could use an af motor update but the optics are class leading.
I guess people just want the same optics in a smaller lighter housing but I’m not sure they’ll actually get what they want.
Leica makes the cutting edge IQ stuff in L mount and the alliance exists so they can leave the other stuff to Sigma and Panasonic.
flash wrote:
Apart from the missing APO 24 mm what lenses do Leica need?
I'm probably the weird one, but I wanted that Leica 100 macro to be a real Leica one, not the rebadged 105 Sigma.
the Sigma 105 is probably the best macro i have (probably a tie with the Nikon 105Z) technical-wise..but I was really hoping we get a real Leica in-house designed macro for the SL mount.
flash wrote:
Apart from the missing APO 24 mm what lenses do Leica need? Sigma cover the long glass and we have a really competitive set of telescope from them. The 24-90 still holds up 10 years later. You might shave a few grams but you’ll also loose the characteristics of it. The 90-280 could use an af motor update but the optics are class leading.
I guess people just want the same optics in a smaller lighter housing but I’m not sure they’ll actually get what they want.
Leica makes the cutting edge IQ stuff in L mount and the alliance exists so they can leave the other stuff to Sigma and Panasonic.
I wanted the SL APO 24 that for some reason many of us were expecting a few years back but Leica decided the 21mm APO instead. At this point seems Leica might have closed the door on larger but cutting edge SL APO prime development perhaps already moving on to "Fast and Compact on Every Travel" and "Wide Aperture, Full of Character" optics for their special Leica made SL optics. If the 50 works out I can see a potential for a SL-35 LUX on the way...maybe.
LBJ2 wrote:
FWIW. As far as the 61MP sensor being a Sony sensor, that did come out of Stefan Daniel's lips. I'll see if I can find that source, but he was what I would call matter of fact about it.
This reference below is not as "mater of fact " as I remembered, so maybe there there is some other interview or YT interview I was thinking about:
"Inevitably, the question about the sensor in the next-generation Leica M12 came up in conversation, as this has been rumoured recently. What was made clear by Stefan is that this rumour contains a large dose of “lost in translation” between what Dr. Kaufmann said and what was reported. Dr. Kaufmann was stating that Leica were developing their own imaging sensor, but this was not connected to any particular camera.
Stefan also stated that Leica was very happy working with Sony, and that Sony had a clear road map for the future. Leica has a certain level of influence on that, but not complete influence. Sony, perhaps obviously from an economic perspective, would not want to make a custom sensor for one client. And that is the reason Leica has started development of its own sensor with its own specific functions. as I remembered but he Stefan comments "
flash wrote:
Apart from the missing APO 24 mm what lenses do Leica need? Sigma cover the long glass and we have a really competitive set of telescope from them. The 24-90 still holds up 10 years later. You might shave a few grams but you’ll also loose the characteristics of it. The 90-280 could use an af motor update but the optics are class leading.
I guess people just want the same optics in a smaller lighter housing but I’m not sure they’ll actually get what they want.
Leica makes the cutting edge IQ stuff in L mount and the alliance exists so they can leave the other stuff to Sigma and Panasonic.
Well, the 24mm was announced, so in my opinion Leica should have delivered it. Leica made an excellent 60mm APO macro lens for APS-C. Why would they not design their own macro lens for full frame L-mount as well? Also a 135mm would be very nice. Besides that I would indeed expect a lighter and smaller version 2 of most lenses. Not sure how the SL would stay competitive otherwise.
highdesertmesa wrote:
Sony will already have a high res, high dynamic range global shutter by then. 3-5 years might as well be never.
That makes no sense. I think you misunderstand Leica's reason for taking on development of its own sensor. It is not about competing with Sony to be first with technology. It is about access, independence, and meaningful unique offerings in product line. Currently Leica and others are constrained by what Sony is willing to sell them. While true in sensors it is even more true in processors. As important as this is for Leica, it is even more so for companies like Nikon. It is becoming extesential for them. Despite what their user base likes to say about a mythical firewall between Sony divisions.
Do the 24-90 and 90-280 have modern AF motors in them? The 90-280 is absurdly large. I don’t buy the notion that those lenses couldn’t be shrunk without sacrificing IQ.
3-5 years away for a new sensor leads me to believe this M11-R rumor may be true. A little holdover until they can get their proper M12 revamp out. Hopefully that thing at least has a Maestro IV in it.
The new Leica Summilux-SL 50mm f/1.4 ASPH is a compact, lightweight "look lens" with a softer, more characterful rendering wide open – and it's one of the smallest, lightest autofocus full-frame 50mm f/1.4 lenses available.
RomanMF wrote:
Do the 24-90 and 90-280 have modern AF motors in them? The 90-280 is absurdly large. I don’t buy the notion that those lenses couldn’t be shrunk without sacrificing IQ.
My point exactly. Same for the APO 35mm with its 750g for an 35mm f2 lens.
RomanMF wrote:
Do the 24-90 and 90-280 have modern AF motors in them? The 90-280 is absurdly large. I don’t buy the notion that those lenses couldn’t be shrunk without sacrificing IQ.
3-5 years away for a new sensor leads me to believe this M11-R rumor may be true. A little holdover until they can get their proper M12 revamp out. Hopefully that thing at least has a Maestro IV in it.
None of the top tier Sony, Sigma, canon and Nikon lenses with linear af motors are particularly small. You can probably make some less noticeably image quality compromises (eg distortion correction or CA correction) and/ or switch to plastic casings to save weight. The main benefit of updating the af motors would be for fast focusing.
1bwana1 wrote:
That makes no sense. I think you misunderstand Leica's reason for taking on development of its own sensor. It is not about competing with Sony to be first with technology. It is about access, independence, and meaningful unique offerings in product line. Currently Leica and others are constrained by what Sony is willing to sell them. While true in sensors it is even more true in processors. As important as this is for Leica, it is even more so for companies like Nikon. It is becoming extesential for them. Despite what their user base likes to say about a mythical firewall between Sony divisions....Show more →
I was speaking to this:
it will be a very very fast sensor and will come as a surprise to many
Sure, it'll be great for Leica have their own fast global sensor in 3-5 years, but will that surprise anyone by then?
