p.2 #1 · Leica resale prices on M lenses bought new are no longer good these days!
stgrove wrote:
Fred,
Actual prices for selling gear to dealers means they will offer 30% less than the going prices. So if one calls a reputable dealer (say a Leica Store) and ask what they will pay for lens XYZ that is in current production and then take that up by 30% minimum that indicates the current used prices. I regularly do this and the prices are not optimistic like Leica has mentioned and most have believed all these years, myself included.
That's exactly what I wrote!
In my example, the Leica 35mm f/1.4 Summilux FLE close focus is $6,900 new right now, so if a dealer is buying your used lens and discounts it by 30%, the number lands at about $4,830. That's pretty much the reality for a current production lens, even when it's mint.
As the years go by, some lenses can drop further, sometimes 40 to 50% depending on demand, production numbers, and how desirable the lens becomes over time. After that initial depreciation curve, prices usually stabilize, and that's where certain Leica M lenses can hold value surprisingly well compared to most other camera systems. That is also when they become a much better buy for people who want to avoid taking the big initial depreciation hit.
p.2 #2 · Leica resale prices on M lenses bought new are no longer good these days!
carstenw wrote:
But is this one dishonest pro really the general rule? Here in Germany I have never had anything like this happen, and I have bought and sold photo equipment for decades.
Probably not, but I am not about to let it happen again, thus my concerns. I have bought and sold plenty of gear on used sites without issues, but none have been Leica products.
p.2 #3 · Leica resale prices on M lenses bought new are no longer good these days!
I second buying used gear on FM. As I buyer I've always gotten exactly what was described in the listing, and I've met and stayed friends with a number of people I've sold to (although in a few cases I had buyers with buyer's remorse and I gladly took back the equipment and gave a full refund less cost of shipping.
I don't have empirical evidence to prove this, but my guess is that M glass bought new will often decline in value although less so than say Sony/Nikon/Canon glass. And in many cases where I bought used M glass on FM, the price has stayed fairly stable.
p.2 #5 · Leica resale prices on M lenses bought new are no longer good these days!
Most people are too busy trying to afford food and gas in Current Year to be buying anything like leica m lenses or a rolex or a 992 911 gt3 rs or superyacht. As to investments, leica lenses aren't very good ones. Maybe flipping limited edition versions might pay over a very long time, but regular modern ones, nope. Hopefully you have some nice ones that you and your family can use for centuries.
p.2 #6 · Leica resale prices on M lenses bought new are no longer good these days!
stgrove wrote:
Not disputing about buying nice used gear where they hold value. That is another subject.
I am talking about those who buy new and then sell them 3-4 years later suffer a lot which has not always been the case even 5-6 years ago. There has been a significant shift downwards since then.
I don't agree with this in general because used Leica pricing has always been a fair amount less than new in 'normal' market conditions where supply slightly exceeds demand.
Back in the mid to late 2010s when I was the deepest into my Leica M system buildout, I primarily bought used (or demo) and used Leica equipment was always significantly below MSRP. At that time, all things considered, I thought those used prices were reasonable relative to new (a substantial discount). But with the amount, in dollars, that Leica prices have increased in the past ~5-8 years (M11 currently ~$10K+, introduced at $9K (2022) vs. M10 introduced at $7K (2017)), I guess I haven't mentally kept up with those current dollar amounts and am still thinking in ~2015 dollars for what I would want to pay. That said, if I wasn't price sensitive to current used values, I think it's still be best way to buy into Leica, as Fred and Steve suggested. Previous owners took the initial depreciation hits and if I'm comfortable with locking away that amount of cash in a lens for some years, there's little risk of losing much, if anything when eventually reselling (privately vs. to dealers). That Leica has annual price increases, ensures new and used prices continue to gradually increase and helps anyone who bought used some years ago at the market rate.
That Leica gear is supposed to hold its value very close to new on resale is IMO a fallacy. The exception to this was when the M9 was released, and for about a couple years afterwards, when supply couldn't come remotely close to demand, including for lenses because everyone who bought an M9 also wanted some Leica lenses to use with it. Used M lenses were selling for above MSRP. And for a while gear flippers seemed rampant. Kind of like house flippers during the pandemic.
Maybe that's when the notion that new Leica M gear should hold its value originated? It was true for a couple years over a decade ago but it seems maybe some continue to believe it, or use it as a sales pitch to mislead others.
p.2 #7 · Leica resale prices on M lenses bought new are no longer good these days!
I remember going to the Leica intro evening for the M240 with Kaufmann doing the intro that evening. I wanted one so bad that I ordered from all over the world in order to get one sooner than later. I ended up with 8 M240 black cameras!! I kept two and sold all the others for slightly more than I paid.
I remember using my M9M with 50/0.95 Noctilux and Kaufmann kept holding the camera up so that I could hit focus on the camera. What an evening to remember..
p.2 #8 · Leica resale prices on M lenses bought new are no longer good these days!
stgrove wrote:
Not disputing about buying nice used gear where they hold value. That is another subject.
I am talking about those who buy new and then sell them 3-4 years later suffer a lot which has not always been the case even 5-6 years ago. There has been a significant shift downwards since then.
I‘m surprised by the expectations people have when selling used gear.
My rules of thumb over the last 20 years has been:
- Used gear with waranty - I would not pay more than 80%, better go new (knowing when you bumped or mistreated your camera yourself)
- Just outside waranty ( e.g. 2 years old), no more than 60 to 70% of new price
- 4-5 years old with hardly signs of wear 50% of new price ( there is always some degradation of lubrication etc.)
- Older than that: price has to be lower than 30-40%. I accept some scuffs on the barrel, but not on the lens. Smooth gearing, no haze or fungus ever.
I‘ve always been able to get the lens I want with some searching. I shun collctor items. I do not collect, I use my gear. Germany appears to have an intact market for used photographic gear. But I agree, for more rare items searching may take up to a year.
p.2 #9 · Leica resale prices on M lenses bought new are no longer good these days!
We did see a runup some years back in used M film cameras like the M6 and M7. But honestly, if you are thinking about buying Leica gear as an investment, you are just fooling yourself. Look what the stock markets have done the last three years. That’s a much better place to invest.
p.2 #10 · Leica resale prices on M lenses bought new are no longer good these days!
samuelphoto wrote:
We did see a runup some years back in used M film cameras like the M6 and M7. But honestly, if you are thinking about buying Leica gear as an investment, you are just fooling yourself. Look what the stock markets have done the last three years. That’s a much better place to invest.
M6 and M7 stand out, correct - but also prices for standard M3, M2, and M4 versions have increased considerably. M4-2s and M5s have kept their value without much of an increase. If Leica is purchased as investment, I would consider predominantly special camera/lens editions and black paint cameras/lenses but not standard Leica gear. I recently saw online a complete Leica Ghost Edition sold for a lot more than when it was released in 2019. I believe the majority of special editions are purchased (and later sometimes sold) by collectors and investors.
p.2 #11 · Leica resale prices on M lenses bought new are no longer good these days!
Yes, the older film cameras too, I just cited the M6 and M7 as examples. I would consider the more modern high end collectible stuff as highly - very highly - speculative. Yes, some ultra rare older gear, especially cameras, have sold for unbelievable prices, as much as a house. But the newer stuff… very risky. I have good success with more traditional investments and these more than fund my various interests.
p.2 #12 · Leica resale prices on M lenses bought new are no longer good these days!
samuelphoto wrote:
Yes, the older film cameras too, I just cited the M6 and M7 as examples. I would consider the more modern high end collectible stuff as highly - very highly - speculative. Yes, some ultra rare older gear, especially cameras, have sold for unbelievable prices, as much as a house. But the newer stuff… very risky. I have good success with more traditional investments and these more than fund my various interests.
Where Leica comes in as possible investment strategy is either for those who already have nearly everything, and collectible Leica cameras/lenses are just icing on the cake so to speak. The other group are Leica enthusiasts who sink a lot of their money into it. A few YouTubers come in mind whom I don't name here, but who fit the latter category.
p.2 #13 · Leica resale prices on M lenses bought new are no longer good these days!
I think we are trying to cite whether or not gear can ever be considered an “investment.” Simply spending money on things because you can, is just spending, not investing.
p.2 #14 · Leica resale prices on M lenses bought new are no longer good these days!
stgrove wrote:
I am so disappointed in offers I am getting on original Mint (mounted once and used for 10-15 shots) Leica M lenses.
I sold all my Leica SL gear and thought the low pieces were due to the items being SL gear which were heavily competing with Nikon and Canon systems. Not just SL gear I know now.
Now I am finding that even Leica M lenses are not holding their value as we have been lead to believe by Leica for years.
p.2 #16 · Leica resale prices on M lenses bought new are no longer good these days!
stgrove wrote:
Of course, Yes. Leica lens price declines started a little over 2 years ago from my memory.
It's sort of like the bike industry — lots of free cash a few years back and new hobbies/increased interest. Now cash is tight, other priorities, and a flood of people losing interest/moving on. Used bikes are in free fall right now except for the best of the best. Same with Leica lenses.
p.2 #19 · Leica resale prices on M lenses bought new are no longer good these days!
RustyRus wrote:
[It's sort of like the bike industry — lots of free cash a few years back and new hobbies/increased interest. Now cash is tight, other priorities, and a flood of people losing interest/moving on. Used bikes are in free fall right now except for the best of the best. Same with Leica lenses.
Why on earth would you sell a bicycle when the correct number of bicycles is N+1?
p.2 #20 · Leica resale prices on M lenses bought new are no longer good these days!
stgrove wrote:
I think he means used Leica prices.
IMHO, the Leica lens prices I have checked if I were to sell are abysmal. Even some old character lenses are down which was seldom the case before.
Maybe I slept a while under a rock since I haven't made any gear purchase since a few years and simply use what I already own. I just follow here and there what some lenses and cameras cost these days but might miss out some details.
