p.1 #1 · Need help diagnosing one-sided vignetting on Leica M262
Camera: Leica M262
Lenses: Voigtländer Nokton 40mm f/1.4 Classic, Nokton 35mm f/1.5 Vintage
No filters or lens hoods used.
I’m seeing strong, asymmetric vignetting only on the M262. The same lenses do not show this behavior on my M10 or M11.
Behavior:
-Most severe wide open (< f/2.0)
-Not shutter-speed dependent (seen from 1/2000–1/4000)
-Occurs only outdoors, never indoors
-Strongest in bright sun, but also present under partial overcast
-Always affects the bottom of the sensor
-Independent of sun position (front, back, or side)
Key finding:
Creating a very deep makeshift lens hood completely eliminates the one-sided vignetting.
This seems body-specific, orientation-dependent, and light-related. Any ideas whether this points to a shutter issue, sensor shading, or internal reflection specific to the M262?
p.1 #3 · Need help diagnosing one-sided vignetting on Leica M262
I cannot see the images you posted but if it is consistently at the bottom of the sensor then you may have an issue with the shutter blades. I don't understand the deep makeshift hood...does that not create an overall vignette?
I assume you checked the sensor and there's nothing stuck there?
p.1 #4 · Need help diagnosing one-sided vignetting on Leica M262
I also vote a physical problem with the shutter.
It may be more noticeable in bright light because if you tend to mostly shoot at or near wide open, the camera will be set to the fastest shutter speeds where shutter blade performance is most critical. Indoors or low light, at slower shutter speeds, the fraction of a second that one edge is not getting enough exposure will be relatively small compared to the overall longer exposure time than when outdoor, wide open in sunlight.
I'd probably try to repeat without a lens on the camera and take shots cycling through a range of shutter speeds starting with 1/4000, then evaluate the 'blank' frames for uneven illumination.
p.1 #6 · Need help diagnosing one-sided vignetting on Leica M262
rscheffler wrote:
I also vote a physical problem with the shutter.
It may be more noticeable in bright light because if you tend to mostly shoot at or near wide open, the camera will be set to the fastest shutter speeds where shutter blade performance is most critical. Indoors or low light, at slower shutter speeds, the fraction of a second that one edge is not getting enough exposure will be relatively small compared to the overall longer exposure time than when outdoor, wide open in sunlight.
I'd probably try to repeat without a lens on the camera and take shots cycling through a range of shutter speeds starting with 1/4000, then evaluate the 'blank' frames for uneven illumination....Show more →
I appreciate your insights.
Without a lens, every frame comes out perfectly illuminated. No vignetting can be seen throughout the shutter speeds.
I was thinking if it were a straightforward shutter problem, I’d expect it to appear regardless of a lens, the hood use or lighting conditions.
While keeping all my settings constant, ISO, shutter speed and aperture, I get the vignetting under certain lighting positions and angles. Pointing the camera straight to a sunlit wall, I will produce the vignette. If I angle the camera lens slightly down, I will produce the again.
However, if I point the lens upward, the vignetting will never occur. Likewise, I cannot get the vignetting to occur when I take a picture of the sky at any settings.
I'm thinking it's likely stray off-axis light interacting with internal camera geometry rather than a true shutter timing defect.
p.1 #7 · Need help diagnosing one-sided vignetting on Leica M262
Have you tried testing with different lenses and getting the same results? If the issue doesn't appear when shooting without a lens, it's unlikely to be a shutter problem.
p.1 #8 · Need help diagnosing one-sided vignetting on Leica M262
Fred Miranda wrote:
Have you tried testing with different lenses and getting the same results? If the issue doesn't appear when shooting without a lens, it's unlikely to be a shutter problem.
Happens with both the 40mm f/1.4 and the 35mm f/1.5.
I definitely can't reproduce the issue when shooting a uniform blue sky at wide aperture across multiple shutter speeds and the same ISO, which makes a classic shutter timing issue seem unlikely.
The vignetting only appears in bright outdoor scenes and disappears completely when I use a deep makeshift hood. That suggests this may be scene-dependent stray light interacting with internal camera geometry rather than true shutter capping.
But I honestly have no clue.
I don't have a 50mm lens (or longer) to try.
And I'm not sure if this means anything, but when shooting a blank wall, the vignetting is stronger at MFD and gets weaker at infinity.
p.1 #9 · Need help diagnosing one-sided vignetting on Leica M262
I would try a well corrected 50/2 lens. It’s possible that both your fast lenses are decentered and testing a third lens would remove this variable.
dumplinknet wrote:
Happens with both the 40mm f/1.4 and the 35mm f/1.5.
I definitely can't reproduce the issue when shooting a uniform blue sky at wide aperture across multiple shutter speeds and the same ISO, which makes a classic shutter timing issue seem unlikely.
The vignetting only appears in bright outdoor scenes and disappears completely when I use a deep makeshift hood. That suggests this may be scene-dependent stray light interacting with internal camera geometry rather than true shutter capping.
But I honestly have no clue.
I don't have a 50mm lens (or longer) to try.
And I'm not sure if this means anything, but when shooting a blank wall, the vignetting is stronger at MFD and gets weaker at infinity. ...Show more →
p.1 #10 · Need help diagnosing one-sided vignetting on Leica M262
Can you better explain your 'very deep hood' comment? Did you mean that using a long hood eliminated the vignetting, or made the vignetting consistent around the frame?
Can you shoot a 'brick wall' test?
Just trying to understand if lens performance is consistent across the frame in all four corners. I.e. the amount of sharpness or blur is consistent. The 35/1.5 might be better for this than the 40.
p.1 #11 · Need help diagnosing one-sided vignetting on Leica M262
I would’ve asked you to try a third lens to remove the low chance that both your lenses are decentered but since they look fine in your other M cameras, I don’t think it’s relevant. I think only Leica can figure this one out.
dumplinknet wrote:
Happens with both the 40mm f/1.4 and the 35mm f/1.5.
I definitely can't reproduce the issue when shooting a uniform blue sky at wide aperture across multiple shutter speeds and the same ISO, which makes a classic shutter timing issue seem unlikely.
The vignetting only appears in bright outdoor scenes and disappears completely when I use a deep makeshift hood. That suggests this may be scene-dependent stray light interacting with internal camera geometry rather than true shutter capping.
But I honestly have no clue.
I don't have a 50mm lens (or longer) to try.
And I'm not sure if this means anything, but when shooting a blank wall, the vignetting is stronger at MFD and gets weaker at infinity. ...Show more →
p.1 #12 · Need help diagnosing one-sided vignetting on Leica M262
I'm wondering if it's a warped lens mount or out of alignment sensor, though not sure how either would explain it happening in bright conditions but not indoors.
Bottom of the image (horizontal) is actually the top of the sensor when viewing it through the lens mount.
p.1 #13 · Need help diagnosing one-sided vignetting on Leica M262
dumplinknet wrote:
And I'm not sure if this means anything, but when shooting a blank wall, the vignetting is stronger at MFD and gets weaker at infinity.
Sure, that means something. The lens's exit pupil is farther from the sensor at MFD and suggests there's something obstructing the light path (shading the sensor) along the top of the lens mount (on the camera) because the bottom of the image is recorded at the top of the sensor.
I'd suggest doing a visual comparison of the lens mount/shutter areas of each of your M cameras to see if there's anything different with the camera in question.
p.1 #14 · Need help diagnosing one-sided vignetting on Leica M262
rscheffler wrote:
Can you better explain your 'very deep hood' comment? Did you mean that using a long hood eliminated the vignetting, or made the vignetting consistent around the frame?
Can you shoot a 'brick wall' test?
Just trying to understand if lens performance is consistent across the frame in all four corners. I.e. the amount of sharpness or blur is consistent. The 35/1.5 might be better for this than the 40.
Yes, much like putting a long empty cardboard toilet roll over my lens- long enough that it doesn't cause vignetting or come into the frame (I verify this using the Live View on the M10).
This alone, would eliminate the asymmetrical vignetting completely in all lighting and distance scenarios that I've tested it.
p.1 #15 · Need help diagnosing one-sided vignetting on Leica M262
I'm not sure how stray light makes vignetting, it would show up as lighter/burned areas. Also, if it was interfering with metering it would just make the whole scene darker.
Is your focusing ok? Does the rangefinder roller at the top of the camera look ok? If the issue is at the bottom of the camera then the issue is at the top of the sensor (image is inverted top/bottom/left/right) which is where the focus roller is. Is there anything flapping about near the top of the sensor box? A blower will show if there's any debris etc.
Also, your makeshift hood, is that literally a toilet roll pushed over? If so, you may want to try taping up the lens/body contact area around the mount and run some tests, to see if there's any stray light there.
Finally...other areas for light to leak into a Leica:
1. Rangefinder patch window (the little one)
2. Rangefinder view window (and eyepiece at the back)
3. Leica badge at the front.
Maybe try a test in conditions where the issue happens and then tape up/cover each of the above to see if it makes a difference?
Finally, iif the lens mount is bent then you'd see some vignetting depending on which way it was damaged. Shoot a brick wall or other flat surface and see if the top half vs bottom half are not in focus.
p.1 #16 · Need help diagnosing one-sided vignetting on Leica M262
rscheffler wrote:
Sure, that means something. The lens's exit pupil is farther from the sensor at MFD and suggests there's something obstructing the light path (shading the sensor) along the top of the lens mount (on the camera) because the bottom of the image is recorded at the top of the sensor.
I'd suggest doing a visual comparison of the lens mount/shutter areas of each of your M cameras to see if there's anything different with the camera in question.
First thought is looking for something "dangling", but it also might be something "lifting" out of position. A "frayed" gasket came to mind, also. I've never deconstructed an M (i.e. just guessing at things), but things that come to mind (theoretical) are stuff like ...
Something that goes "around" the perimeter of sensor, could be ... ??
Something like delamination might not easily seen by visual inspection, but could alter / obstruct the light path. In that regard, the different exit pupil element position could be part of the variations in effect being seen, as it projects onto / through the different amount of delam (ie. greatest at edge) from various angles.
The "fuzzy" edge (i.e. not clean break, like a shutter) had me thinking frayed gasket, but delalmination could also yield something that transitions without a clean line.
Not meant to suggest I've got the answer, just tickling a few more brainstormers, iteratively leading to
p.1 #17 · Need help diagnosing one-sided vignetting on Leica M262
Ugh. After more testing, I have confirmed that it is the shutter.
With no lens attached, at 1/4000 in well-lit but not overly bright conditions, I can see vignetting at the bottom of the sensor. At 1/3000 it is barely noticeable, but at 1/4000 it is obvious and quite heavy.
Oddly, when I angle the camera upward, I cannot reproduce the vignetting at 1/4000. This happens whether I squat and shoot upward or point the camera straight at a blue sky.
It is easy enough to avoid by not shooting at 1/4000, but I would really like to understand how the M262 shutter works and whether this is something I could fix myself. I imagine a brand new shutter plus labor would cost about a quarter of the price of the camera, so I am not sure it would be worth it.
Has anyone attempted a DIY shutter repair for something like this? I've done several camera repairs before, but I do not have a mechanical understanding of shutter timing, curtain calibration, etc.
p.1 #18 · Need help diagnosing one-sided vignetting on Leica M262
dumplinknet wrote:
Ugh. After more testing, I have confirmed that it is the shutter.
With no lens attached, at 1/4000 in well-lit but not overly bright conditions, I can see vignetting at the bottom of the sensor. At 1/3000 it is barely noticeable, but at 1/4000 it is obvious and quite heavy.
Oddly, when I angle the camera upward, I cannot reproduce the vignetting at 1/4000. This happens whether I squat and shoot upward or point the camera straight at a blue sky.
It is easy enough to avoid by not shooting at 1/4000, but I would really like to understand how the M262 shutter works and whether this is something I could fix myself. I imagine a brand new shutter plus labor would cost about a quarter of the price of the camera, so I am not sure it would be worth it.
Has anyone attempted a DIY shutter repair for something like this? I've done several camera repairs before, but I do not have a mechanical understanding of shutter timing, curtain calibration, etc. ...Show more →
I doubt there would be a DIY solution and I don't think anyone services components like shutters any more. They just replace them.
The photo of the blown M240 shutter I posted earlier was in 2018, four years after I bought the camera. It happened in NYC, so the last day there I went to Leica in NJ to drop off the camera. They initially indicated there would be a charge and would send me an estimate. They ended up doing the shutter at no charge. BUT, because some debris was permanently attached to the sensor, they required me to pay for sensor replacement in order to 'bring it back to factory specs' which it being Leica, of course sounds very scary. It ended up being around $950. But it was ~6 years ago and prices might be different now. I kind of think they felt sorry that I'd have to pay for sensor replacement to fix the shutter, so only charged me for the sensor. I did tell them I could live with the dirty sensor but they wouldn't do the servicing without the sensor replacement.
p.1 #19 · Need help diagnosing one-sided vignetting on Leica M262
I doubt you can DIY a shutter repair. The fact that it is orientation related means that probably the one of the blades gets a bit stuck or not depending on gravity. Or maybe there's a little bit of damage (bent) which may or may not stick depending on orientation. I don't know the specifics of the travel direction of the first/second curtain and so on but sounds like a job for a repair shop.
