p.1 #1 · Epson planned an EVF-based R-D1 successor
I don't recall seeing this discussed here before (I also did a quick search of this board), but back in January 2022 at an Epson R-D1 event in Japan, the team behind the R-D1 revealed, apparently for the first time, that Epson had started development work on an EVF-based R-D1 successor in 2009-2010. But it was not continued due to the general decline in the digital camera market starting around that time.
It would have basically been a Leica EV1 ~15 years before the EV1, though apparently APS-C rather than FF. It sounds like Epson was even going to design a series of lenses for it.
Or, by eliminating the optical RF system, would they have removed the one feature that made the R-D1 stand out against other APS-C mirrorless cameras onto which M lenses can be adapted? IOW, would it just have been another version of a Fuji X camera, but without AF?
Would such a camera be relevant today? Or even more so, a revival and improvement of the OVF/RF based original R-D1 concept?
p.1 #2 · Epson planned an EVF-based R-D1 successor
It would have been an interesting camera and I probably would have wanted one. Potential issues for me would be:
1) APS-C ... I could live with it, but I'd really prefer FF
2) loss of the Analog status dial...unique and desirable feature
3) loss of the frame advance lever...it's probably better without it, but it would make a handy thumb rest.
p.1 #3 · Epson planned an EVF-based R-D1 successor
The lens attached looks to be an AF lens, so they must've been moving away from direct M-mount use. So I'm guessing it would've gotten lost in everything Sony, Fuji, and Samsung were doing at the time.
p.1 #4 · Epson planned an EVF-based R-D1 successor
CVickery wrote:
It would have been an interesting camera and I probably would have wanted one. Potential issues for me would be:
1) APS-C ... I could live with it, but I'd really prefer FF
2) loss of the Analog status dial...unique and desirable feature
3) loss of the frame advance lever...it's probably better without it, but it would make a handy thumb rest.
It would indeed have been interesting and even more so if eventually a FF model was released. I think it could have been a big hit with those looking to adapt lenses before the Sony system went FF.
Back around that time I bought a used Ricoh GXR with M-mount module, which was 12MP APS-C and kind of the same thing, though with a clip-on EVF, IIRC (or maybe no EVF?). The GXR was neat but suffered from a slow processor and a relatively painful live view experience. Shooting in RAW, I think it was like 1-2 seconds per image, haha. I actually got it partly as a back up to my M9 which required some servicing in 2011 and I still wanted to use M lenses on a small digital camera.
While the EVF-based Epson would have been niche, I think they could have gotten a bigger foothold than the R-D1 did, if it was at least half decent performance.
freaklikeme wrote:
The lens attached looks to be an AF lens, so they must've been moving away from direct M-mount use. So I'm guessing it would've gotten lost in everything Sony, Fuji, and Samsung were doing at the time.
I didn't get the impression it would have been AF from the article, but the renderings kind of suggest that with the switch on the side of the lens.
I believe the lens in the image is a ~18-55 style of zoom.
p.1 #5 · Epson planned an EVF-based R-D1 successor
I for one would be interested by such a camera: it would have to be smaller than a M, lightweight and priced without the Leica premium.
I would be a great platform to use M and other manual focus lenses. And an optional handgrip would make it more convenient with big lenses.
A slightly smaller A7C with a better viewfinder, state of the art focusing aids, 6 bits adapter (maybe not legally possible) and a kolari equivalent sensor would be very close.
p.1 #6 · Epson planned an EVF-based R-D1 successor
I see more chances for something like this to be done now by a Chinese brand. Something I mentioned as possibility in other threads a while ago. Affordable M EV-1 copy by a Chinese brand.
p.1 #7 · Epson planned an EVF-based R-D1 successor
retrofocus wrote:
I see more chances for something like this to be done now by a Chinese brand. Something I mentioned as possibility in other threads a while ago. Affordable M EV-1 copy by a Chinese brand.
There's that rumour that Zeiss will buy controlling interest in Leica, I see that as the quickest way to get a really interesting new M mount body. They could revive the Zeiss line of cameras which were in many ways superior to Leica (just not in build quality and haptics).
p.1 #8 · Epson planned an EVF-based R-D1 successor
hudsonCAD wrote:
There's that rumour that Zeiss will buy controlling interest in Leica, I see that as the quickest way to get a really interesting new M mount body. They could revive the Zeiss line of cameras which were in many ways superior to Leica (just not in build quality and haptics).
Nope. Zeiss tried before with a total flop. If something like M EV-1, it will be from China.
p.1 #10 · Epson planned an EVF-based R-D1 successor
Fred Miranda wrote:
Wasn't the best part about the Epson R-D1 that it was a real rangefinder?
"real rangefinder" for such a camera is relative: focusing precision was never great. But at the time, if you wanted to use M lenses, you add no choice and OVF were not available.
Nowadays, depending on your subjects and preferences, you can choose between a rangefinder or one of several mirrorless cameras from Sony, Nikon, Canon and Leica as you well know.
P.S: writing this made me dream of a M with an hybrid viewfinder.
p.1 #11 · Epson planned an EVF-based R-D1 successor
pmeheut wrote:
P.S: writing this made me dream of a M with an hybrid viewfinder.
It's totally possible to have a Leica style feeler-cam work on an encoder adjust frame parallax correction. The screen-within-a-screen function in a X-Pro works pretty great to attain focus considering you can move it around unlike a true RF patch.
p.1 #12 · Epson planned an EVF-based R-D1 successor
Picture in picture focusing assist IMO is distracting. IIRC, the GXR I had back around the time this R-D1 EVF camera was in development had PIP focusing assist. I didn't like it. But I did like their enhanced edges grayscale EVF focusing assist.
Currently, I prefer how phase detect based focus assist has been implemented by Canon's mirrorless system. I believe Nikon's is similar.
pmeheut wrote:
P.S: writing this made me dream of a M with an hybrid viewfinder.
I would be happy with an OVF that has a focus confirmation light, or something, driven by phase-detect directly off the sensor if it would be too difficult to make a viewfinder that can switch between OVF and EVF.
Fred Miranda wrote:
Wasn't the best part about the Epson R-D1 that it was a real rangefinder?
I guess... but it was based on the relatively short effective base length rangefinder of the Voigtlander Bessa line. Perhaps OK for 6MP APS-C but would probably present pixel-peeping focus accuracy issues with fast lenses on current higher MP sensors.
p.1 #13 · Epson planned an EVF-based R-D1 successor
rscheffler wrote:
I would be happy with an OVF that has a focus confirmation light
Made me think: I would be happy with an optional electronic focus confirmation in the current M viewfinder.
I would use the rangefinder most of the time because it quick, intuitive and efficient. And could use the electronic confirmation when I need a very precise focusing, when I'm using a miscalibrated lens such as my 135mm/3.4.
I do not need something fancy where I can choose the focus point, just a good old centered one.
Changes would be minimal but it would help.
p.1 #14 · Epson planned an EVF-based R-D1 successor
retrofocus wrote:
Nope. Zeiss tried before with a total flop. If something like M EV-1, it will be from China.
Why do you think it was a flop? The ZM only got good reviews, seems to have sold well. I personally love my SWs. Their external viewfinders are generally seen as the best to this day.
Now the SW was a flop. But it's exactly what I want as a film point and shoot body.
If you made a M7 mark II with a 20% larger viewfinder, I'd be over the moon.
As for digital, I keep watching the space. None of the current M Mount offerings are compelling to me. So I hope someone gets something together.
p.1 #15 · Epson planned an EVF-based R-D1 successor
hudsonCAD wrote:
Why do you think it was a flop? The ZM only got good reviews, seems to have sold well. I personally love my SWs. Their external viewfinders are generally seen as the best to this day.
Now the SW was a flop. But it's exactly what I want as a film point and shoot body.
If you made a M7 mark II with a 20% larger viewfinder, I'd be over the moon.
As for digital, I keep watching the space. None of the current M Mount offerings are compelling to me. So I hope someone gets something together.
I was thinking at the digital ZX1 as camera which flopped IMO. Didn't even consider thinking of the analog ZM. When I mentioned a copy of the M EV-1, my way of thinking was focused on the digital model which didn't work out well for Zeiss. Too expensive and less options than a Leica M provides.
I believe a copy of the M EV-1 even with plastic-based camera body would sell as hotcakes if priced at or below $1.5K. Unthinkable if they actually also improved the focus tool over the original M EV1. Leica Camera would have emergency meetings in-house same as they did when Sony released the A7 series in 2014 over concerns of easy M-lens adaptability to FF MLC (this was my entry into the Leica M system just with M lenses adapted to the A7 long before even getting my first Leica M camera much later). .
p.1 #16 · Epson planned an EVF-based R-D1 successor
It wouldn't destroy Leica. The EV1 is a niche camera and not a pillar around which the company is built. Many who use the M system do so for the rangefinder experience, which would remain unique to Leica. Leica's market position is also such that its brand mystique is as relevant to a certain subset of customers as its product portfolio. That group of customers would not buy a $1500 plastic Chinese-made EV1 version.
Such a camera would primarily appeal to those who are already priced out of Leica's digital M cost of entry and could actually help Leica, and other M mount lens makers, through additional lens sales. Which likely was also the case with the rush of early Sony a7 adopters. Did Leica have a panic meeting about Sony back then? Or is this conjecture? I mean, apparently Leica has been on the verge of demise due to poor product planning for at least since the introduction of the SL system, but it hasn't yet happened. Since then they've had numerous years of growth.
That's not to say Leica can be complacent. But their demise also doesn't seem imminent.
pmeheut wrote:
Made me think: I would be happy with an optional electronic focus confirmation in the current M viewfinder.
I would use the rangefinder most of the time because it quick, intuitive and efficient. And could use the electronic confirmation when I need a very precise focusing, when I'm using a miscalibrated lens such as my 135mm/3.4.
I do not need something fancy where I can choose the focus point, just a good old centered one.
Changes would be minimal but it would help.
I wonder if Leica ever thought of that.
Yes, exactly like this.
With the feedback they've received from the EV1 camera, I expect so. Leveraging phase detect focus information off the sensor for use with an EVF based focusing aid is something I and others here were hoping would be in the EV1 before it was announced. IMO it would not be a stretch to put a PD capable sensor in a non-EVF M camera to provide the type of electronic focus assist confirmation we're discussing here.
What might hold them back is resistance from 'purists' who see no need for a PD capable sensor in a 'traditional' M body. But also the need to source such a sensor, pay for the additional PD capability, develop the M system to leverage the focus information, etc. That said, a digital M body is now in the $10K range and it should, IMO, be a technological tour de force at this price point.
p.1 #17 · Epson planned an EVF-based R-D1 successor
Back in about 2013 I wanted something digital to use my Leica film lenses on. The Ricoh modular camera got discontinued so that was out. But Sony gave us a couple of aps-c cameras that did well, the Nex 5n and the Nex6 wIth an EVF. For some reason the sensor stack on these two had a very thin cover glass, and even my 35mm Summicro aspheric and the original 15mm 4.5 Voigtlander worked pretty well on it. Used a Nex 6 for about 4 years like that, M to Nex adapter on it all the time. Eventuallygot tired of the relarively poor EVF and traded it for an Xpro2.
